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Chrissy Martin...

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[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="John"]I thought he was poor, and was utterly relieved to see him come off.

[/quote]In one line you show how little you know about football.[/quote]

He was poor in a striker role but good in a midfielder role. Unfortunately he was selected as a striker and he is NOT a striker.

[/quote]Paul, you are tha man that lauds Cody McDonald. I need say no more.[/quote]

At least Cody has pace and scores goals, and the fact he was not given a chance speaks volumes. Thus alas I think we are probably doomed, more so is Martin continues in a striker role.

 

[/quote]Martin scored in League One and Championship....You''re an idiot. There''s no other way to describe you. Well, there is, but this is a family-friendly forum after all...

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]If you don''t like Martins performance, blame Lambert for picking him. He knows how MArtin plays, he''s not going to become a diffrent footballer, so therefore its Lambert''s fault for picking Martin.

Martin did what he does well, and did it very well today.I really fail to see how you can call his performance poor, based on what you think a striker should be doing. As i said, Lambert knows Martins game, it hasn''t changed he just gets less shooting opportunities in this league (and Championship compared to League One).[/quote]Thankyou stepping down from your pedestal and engaging in conversation Ginger; regardless of Ricardo''s pre-disposition over the ''Martin Haters'' (i''d argue i''m not one, but i''m expectant of heart ruling head for some), we don''t bite!My view, whilst yours is a mitigating factor which i entirely appreciate, is that (while it would be unfair for me to use a goalkeeper as an example) if a defender fails to clear the ball at the given oppertunity (ala De Laet today, Wigan, or Chelsea, take your pick), or positioned himself so as to jeopardise the side in sending the system of play awry and letting the opposition through, he has failed to fill his job capacity, and has therefore performed poorly. On one occasion that is by all means excusable if the general play is decent (De Laet was in fact great against Wigan), but Martin had numerous oppertunities to shoot, find another player in the box, and position himself whereby he could threaten the Wigan defence instead of combatting the fulcrum of West Broms midfield. He failed to do so on almost every occasion, and as such, oppertunities of shots and passes were missed with fluster regularly, and the attacking play was often either left isolated, overly pressurised, or both.I''m merely scrutinising Martins performance just as i would any other; unfortunately defenders like Doherty, Ward, or now De Laet, suffer it tenfold afterall.

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I understand your points John, but don''t think Martin wasted that many chances to shoot/set up team mates, most of what i noticed him doing was too far away from the box. But yes at times he didn''t take a shot, or get himself in a position to get a shot off which he should have done.

I agree with your reference to the defenders as well, its always more noticeable when a defender/GK doesn''t do his job, and they get a lot more flak for it.

But strikers do get criticised for not playing properly, Torres for example, on MOTD last night they were showing how much more effective Anelka is.

I just don''t think its fair to call Martin''s performance poor, it wasn''t spectacular and he did fail to get a shot off or really provide a killer ball something perhaps Lambert will really try and push him to do in future games. But as i said, i think his overall game was good, and probably isn''t ever going to be the most effective striker and i suppose i have to agree he''s probably not right for the team at the moment. But going back to calling him poor, i think Lambert''s tactics were wrong today, and thats why Martin can be called poor. He wasn''t playing as a striker, and we all know Holt spends most of his time chasing and out on the flanks etc so he isn''t in the box that much, it just left us seemingly without a striker for most of the game, and without Hoolahan didn''t work at all.

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[quote user="John"][/quote]John, you can point out the flaws in other posters to your heart''s content, but your verbose pedantry is either inaccurate or nauseating. Criticise Martin all you want, but we know what Martin provides: an aerial threat, build up play, and movement across the pitch. Asking him to perform the role, of say Odemwingie today is of course moronic. He just is not that type of player. You certainly don''t ask Hernandez to play as a target man and ask Kenwyne Jones to sniff around in the box. Lambert is not a fool, and invariably he started Martin for his style of play (remember he picks the team!). I for one thought Martin did what he set out to do very well today. He won ball in the air, he made the most passes in the final third out of any player on the pitch and he created some chances. I''m aware he took few shots, but that goes for the whole of the team (including Grant Holt). We have a problem at being sharp in the box, but I must reiterate, that we are going to have this problem all season if we play Holt and Martin upfront, and Johnson and Crofts in the middle. These are workmen, not play-makers and clinical finishers. (Please keep any reply under a 1000 characters, thanks.)

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Martin was top dollar today for us. He was involved in every attack and build up. Cant see why people slate him to be fair, I just figure those who do don''t understand his role or football.Also as a footnote, why lambo bought on Barry and Paul Chuckle for Holt and Martin is beyond me.Thats 2 sitters Morrison has missed now :(

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[quote user="Fellas"][quote user="John"][/quote]John, you can point out the flaws in other posters to your heart''s content, but your verbose pedantry is either inaccurate or nauseating. Criticise Martin all you want, but we know what Martin provides: an aerial threat, build up play, and movement across the pitch. Asking him to perform the role, of say Odemwingie today is of course moronic. He just is not that type of player. You certainly don''t ask Hernandez to play as a target man and ask Kenwyne Jones to sniff around in the box. Lambert is not a fool, and invariably he started Martin for his style of play (remember he picks the team!). I for one thought Martin did what he set out to do very well today. He won ball in the air, he made the most passes in the final third out of any player on the pitch and he created some chances. I''m aware he took few shots, but that goes for the whole of the team (including Grant Holt). We have a problem at being sharp in the box, but I must reiterate, that we are going to have this problem all season if we play Holt and Martin upfront, and Johnson and Crofts in the middle. These are workmen, not play-makers and clinical finishers. (Please keep any reply under a 1000 characters, thanks.)[/quote]What. A. Douchey. Reply... But i''ll entertain as briefly as you wish.I disagree with your comment on passes in the final third, but my issue was with not what he made, but what he didn''t with the oppertunities presented to him. I never asked of him to play like Odemwingie, Hernandez, Kenwyne Jones...etc., my opinion though was that he didn''t fulfill what i''d of expected today, and i suggest it unequivocally stifled us in our forward play, and it would be obtuse not to doubt his performance with such suspicions.Lambert is no fool, but by the same token he''s not infallible, yada, yada, yada, etc, etc...

If you want a minimalist discussion, i ask you to pardon the rest, f*** off, and i hope for the best.

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[quote user="John"][quote user="Fellas"][quote user="John"][/quote]John, you can point out the flaws in other posters to your heart''s content, but your verbose pedantry is either inaccurate or nauseating. Criticise Martin all you want, but we know what Martin provides: an aerial threat, build up play, and movement across the pitch. Asking him to perform the role, of say Odemwingie today is of course moronic. He just is not that type of player. You certainly don''t ask Hernandez to play as a target man and ask Kenwyne Jones to sniff around in the box. Lambert is not a fool, and invariably he started Martin for his style of play (remember he picks the team!). I for one thought Martin did what he set out to do very well today. He won ball in the air, he made the most passes in the final third out of any player on the pitch and he created some chances. I''m aware he took few shots, but that goes for the whole of the team (including Grant Holt). We have a problem at being sharp in the box, but I must reiterate, that we are going to have this problem all season if we play Holt and Martin upfront, and Johnson and Crofts in the middle. These are workmen, not play-makers and clinical finishers. (Please keep any reply under a 1000 characters, thanks.)[/quote]What. A. Douchey. Reply... But i''ll entertain as briefly as you wish.I disagree with your comment on passes in the final third, but my issue was with not what he made, but what he didn''t with the oppertunities presented to him. I never asked of him to play like Odemwingie, Hernandez, Kenwyne Jones...etc., my opinion though was that he didn''t fulfill what i''d of expected today, and i suggest it unequivocally stifled us in our forward play, and it would be obtuse not to doubt his performance with such suspicions.Lambert is no fool, but by the same token he''s not infallible, yada, yada, yada, etc, etc...

If you want a minimalist discussion, i ask you to pardon the rest, f*** off, and i hope for the best.[/quote]You can disagree with my comment with my comment if you choose, but it is a fact (see Guardian Chalkboards).Short of scoring today, I still fail to see what more he could have done today. He set up some good play, even a very good opportunity for Surman in 6 yard box. I think perhaps your expectations are too high. Maybe it''s everything or nothing for you, certainly I never mentioned minimalism...........

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[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="John"]I thought he was poor, and was utterly relieved to see him come off.

[/quote]In one line you show how little you know about football.[/quote]

He was poor in a striker role but good in a midfielder role. Unfortunately he was selected as a striker and he is NOT a striker.

[/quote]Paul, you are tha man that lauds Cody McDonald. I need say no more.[/quote]

At least Cody has pace and scores goals, and the fact he was not given a chance speaks volumes. Thus alas I think we are probably doomed, more so is Martin continues in a striker role.

 

[/quote]How many shots did Cody have yesterday?

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[quote user="Nexus_Canary"]Martin was top dollar today for us.
He was involved in every attack and build up. Cant see why people slate him to be fair, I just figure those who do don''t understand his role or football.

Also as a footnote, why lambo bought on Barry and Paul Chuckle for Holt and Martin is beyond me.
Thats 2 sitters Morrison has missed now :(
[/quote]

Agree, Martin was involved in most of our best play today and held up the ball well, he struggled alittle on a couple of occassions to get the ball out from his feet to get a shot away but most of those times he was under intense pressure from two players so you''d only really call them half chances at best. He was superior in this game to Holt who seemed to struggle to read the game today, though i''m not saying i think Martins the better player.

I wouldnt be too quick to slam Morison, he just needs a goal and i think he''ll be just fine, as for Vaughn this was his first match, i understood the change it just didnt come off for Lambert on this occassion.

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Played some nice stuff but he is slow and offers little up front.4 goals last season in the league. If he plays regularly up front we are doomed. An accident prone defence and an attack that will struggle to score more than 1 goal a game

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[quote user="Fellas"][quote user="John"][quote user="Fellas"][quote user="John"][/quote]John, you can point out the flaws in other posters to your heart''s content, but your verbose pedantry is either inaccurate or nauseating. Criticise Martin all you want, but we know what Martin provides: an aerial threat, build up play, and movement across the pitch. Asking him to perform the role, of say Odemwingie today is of course moronic. He just is not that type of player. You certainly don''t ask Hernandez to play as a target man and ask Kenwyne Jones to sniff around in the box. Lambert is not a fool, and invariably he started Martin for his style of play (remember he picks the team!). I for one thought Martin did what he set out to do very well today. He won ball in the air, he made the most passes in the final third out of any player on the pitch and he created some chances. I''m aware he took few shots, but that goes for the whole of the team (including Grant Holt). We have a problem at being sharp in the box, but I must reiterate, that we are going to have this problem all season if we play Holt and Martin upfront, and Johnson and Crofts in the middle. These are workmen, not play-makers and clinical finishers. (Please keep any reply under a 1000 characters, thanks.)[/quote]What. A. Douchey. Reply... But i''ll entertain as briefly as you wish.I disagree with your comment on passes in the final third, but my issue was with not what he made, but what he didn''t with the oppertunities presented to him. I never asked of him to play like Odemwingie, Hernandez, Kenwyne Jones...etc., my opinion though was that he didn''t fulfill what i''d of expected today, and i suggest it unequivocally stifled us in our forward play, and it would be obtuse not to doubt his performance with such suspicions.Lambert is no fool, but by the same token he''s not infallible, yada, yada, yada, etc, etc...

If you want a minimalist discussion, i ask you to pardon the rest, f*** off, and i hope for the best.[/quote]You can disagree with my comment with my comment if you choose, but it is a fact (see Guardian Chalkboards).Short of scoring today, I still fail to see what more he could have done today. He set up some good play, even a very good opportunity for Surman in 6 yard box. I think perhaps your expectations are too high. Maybe it''s everything or nothing for you, certainly I never mentioned minimalism...........[/quote]I''l take your word for it that he did, but it was his work in the box that was of a primary cause of concern for me. It wasn''t that he didn''t score, but the number of times i can recall him in particular having the ball at his feet in the box, hesitating over what to do in vain. A striker being some sort of remote threat to the opposition goal i wouldn''t have thought constituted being too high of expectation.

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I thought he did nothing in the first half, linked up well in the second, but was never threatening. His past record in the Championship is nothing much to shout about and him and Holt as a partnership has no pace or creativity. Of the two players Holt at least gets in positions to gain chances. I''m surprised Lambert has started with him and Holt as a front two.  They seem a ponderous and predictable pairing, you would think Premiership defenses would be able to deal with them fairly easily.

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[quote user="Yellowbeagle"]

[quote user="Nexus_Canary"]Martin was top dollar today for us. He was involved in every attack and build up. Cant see why people slate him to be fair, I just figure those who do don''t understand his role or football.Also as a footnote, why lambo bought on Barry and Paul Chuckle for Holt and Martin is beyond me.Thats 2 sitters Morrison has missed now :([/quote]

Agree, Martin was involved in most of our best play today and held up the ball well, he struggled alittle on a couple of occassions to get the ball out from his feet to get a shot away but most of those times he was under intense pressure from two players so you''d only really call them half chances at best. He was superior in this game to Holt who seemed to struggle to read the game today, though i''m not saying i think Martins the better player.

I wouldnt be too quick to slam Morison, he just needs a goal and i think he''ll be just fine, as for Vaughn this was his first match, i understood the change it just didnt come off for Lambert on this occassion.

[/quote]Your right about Morrison and Vaughn, just thought it a tad suicidal and stupid on Lamberts part to change both strikers for two guys who are not only new to the club but also do not have a goal between them.In another universe Im sure it ended 2-1 with Vaughen getting one in the 89th and Morrison getting one in the 94th, but on planet Real Life this did not happen and it had me sat there screaming WTF.:)

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I thought he had a very decent game again but he clearly needs to play alongside somebody with a bit of pace. Holt/Martin doesn''t seem to work but it''s far from clear to me which one of the pairing should be replaced.

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I thought Martin (C) was excellent today, my motm and the only player to show prem quality - good movement & excellent link up play.

But like all our strikers he failed to make foster make a save and does lack pace.

But I would like to see him with morison soon

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[quote user="WeAreYellows49"]Ive always been borderline in my views for Chrissy Martin, today he played ok, but he is after all a striker, so he needs (along with others) to be scoring goals, and today he didn''t.

Lambert needs to get the players to actually take the chances well that they do get.[/quote]

And nor did any of the other strikers; when none of the strikers score you have to look at the rest of the contributions; work rate, movement, link up play and creating chances; today he was the best striker of the 4 we played

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[quote user="John"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="John"]I thought he was poor, and was utterly relieved to see him come off.

[/quote]In one line you show how little you know about football.[/quote]

He was poor in a striker role but good in a midfielder role. Unfortunately he was selected as a striker and he is NOT a striker.

[/quote]Paul, you are tha man that lauds Cody McDonald. I need say no more.[/quote]Again with the ad hominem; and let''s just admit that reputation is the only foot you''ve got to stand on.Age has been non too kind to your myopic mind Ricardo.[/quote]Pointless to argue with you, your minds already made up.Having played the game for twenty years and watched it for over fifty I think I can spot a footballer when I see one. As to being relieved when he came off I wonder what you then made of the final 20 minutes. Did Vaughan and Morison make us look sharper. No, they didn''t did they. Holt and Martin had nothing in the way of even half chances. Holt battled well but found the WBrom centrebacks just as tough as he is. Martin layed the ball off well, was neat and tidy with his passes and was the architect of the only shot that Foster had to save when he cleverly slipped Surman in. None of our forwards got much of a look in today but I venture to suggest that Chris Martin was the pick of those on display.

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Personally I thought both Holt and Martin were excellent today, but we needed pace and invention with them- or one of them.When Wes came on I thought the threat level jumped up a notch but then the double substitution killed that. Morrison was woeful when he came on and Vaughan clearly isn''t quite on the same page as the rest of the team YET.If PL had brought just one of Martin or Holt off (either/or today I felt) to bring Vaughan on I suspect the momentum we were building could have stayed on. We''ll never know for sure.I have been gunned down for saying it before but I still believe we need another player with pace and finishing ability to play up front- I think we have 4 ''center forwards'' in Holt, Martin, Morrison and Wilbraham (in that order of preference for me), one ''Striker'' in Jackson and one unknown quantity in Vaughan.I would have to say that I only rate Jackson slightly higher than Morrison so feel we need at least one ''Striker'' who can run on to a pass and poach a half chance to be the first choice of that type.After today I would not pick Morrison again unless I had to- but after Wigan he''d have been in my starting 11- so time will tell!

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What Chris Martin did well today was what we all know Chris Martin can do well. He can drop off the front line and link up play nicely.

 

But it was also the same old thing with him that he doesn''t really worry defenders, he doesn''t ever really hurt them. More often than not when he was around the 18 yard box (somewhere he could potentially do some damage) he was quickly closed down and couldn''t get anything away.

 

I thought he had a better game than Grant Holt today but I don''t think he''s the answer.

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I am with the OP and Ricardo. Clearly Chris Martin is the "marmite" player of our squad. I thought today he worked hard, showed how good his control was, very rarely gave the ball away (if at all) and played some nice passes. When he and Holt went off we seem to go "route one" which was a shame given we had Hoolahan on the pitch, Holt, Vaughan and Morrison are strikers and also failed to score today (Morrison missed with a header he really should have scored with), yet some posters just seem to want to single Chris out even going as far to say we will go down if he plays, as far as I am concerned we win as a team and we lose as a team.....

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I wouldn''t give Martin any rating above a 7, but that would probably be the highest rating for a member of the side that played yesterday.  He doesnt have pace argument is an interesting one, we all know how he plays.....would we rather have a headless chicken a la Cody big mac or a Jackson who seems to have disappeared out of form again??A few people stated that Chris offered no creativity....well the only genuine piece of creativity i saw all game from us was his delightful little ball slipped through to Surman who really just needed to cut it back to Holt!Still, i think we have missed the real point......our midfield was very slow all over the pitch i thought. When we had the chance of a counter it seemed the 2 centre mids were jogging up the centre of the pitch, one winger in Bennet was being watched since he was the obvious outlet and Surman just tends to float around. If we are going to play two slightly less mobile forwards in Holt and Martin then it is absolutely imperative that the midfield busts a gut to get into the box for the knock downs or little angled balls.....i didnt see either centre mid make it into the 18yard box all game....crofts had a few half efforts from outside the box. Hoolahan would have at least done this...but perhaps at the cost of our solidish midfield 4.....The fact that we played Crofts and Johnson in midfield i think had a lot to do with the fact that our defence really doesnt look at all comfortable with the pace of the game at this level.....we can bang on every week about the bloody referee but to be honest our defence looks like it will give up at least one goal every game.  Couple that with a strikeforce that is adjusting to the defences they now face and a midfield which is neither settled nor entirely sure what their jobs are, and we don''t look in good shape.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="John"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="John"]I thought he was poor, and was utterly relieved to see him come off.

[/quote]In one line you show how little you know about football.[/quote]

He was poor in a striker role but good in a midfielder role. Unfortunately he was selected as a striker and he is NOT a striker.

[/quote]Paul, you are tha man that lauds Cody McDonald. I need say no more.[/quote]Again with the ad hominem; and let''s just admit that reputation is the only foot you''ve got to stand on.Age has been non too kind to your myopic mind Ricardo.[/quote]Pointless to argue with you, your minds already made up.Having played the game for twenty years and watched it for over fifty I think I can spot a footballer when I see one. As to being relieved when he came off I wonder what you then made of the final 20 minutes. Did Vaughan and Morison make us look sharper. No, they didn''t did they. Holt and Martin had nothing in the way of even half chances. Holt battled well but found the WBrom centrebacks just as tough as he is. Martin layed the ball off well, was neat and tidy with his passes and was the architect of the only shot that Foster had to save when he cleverly slipped Surman in. None of our forwards got much of a look in today but I venture to suggest that Chris Martin was the pick of those on display.

[/quote]

Was about to weigh into this argument but you''ve summed up exactly what I wanted to say.

In short, Martin did everything he could do yesterday. Held the ball up so much better than holt (he also doesn''t do the so-over-the-top-dive that holt has made his own and is already getting found out by refs), great link up play and is a lot stronger than people realise. Didn''t have the chances to shoot, like holt BUT not like Morison who could''ve scored and also wes had a decent chance. As said many times, he isn''t quick, however I''m sure lambert''s realised that so can people stop saying ''he''s too slow'' (like surman, he plays to his strengths).

Yes he could have played better but so could most of the team, he was certainly one of the better players yesterday and easily the best of the 4 strikers that played

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I''ve really never known a City player to divide opinion so much, I''ve enjoyed reading this thread and it''s good that we all have different opinions, it would be a boring old world if we all agreed on everything.

I would love to see Martin in the diamond role, but as someone stated, that would be at the expense of Wes.

I think Martin is a good player and there''s no way i think he should be singled out when as a team we weren''t great.

Also i''d have to say I think Martin performed better than Holt today.

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Chris Martin is gash, end of.

My 8 year old son who has only been into fotoball for about a year was even saying that Martin is slow, has no first touch and takes an age to do anything with the ball.

When will the people that think coz he is a Norfolk boy he has to play take the blinkers off and realise he is a league 1 player at best.

I would love to ask Lambert why he keeps playing him coz i''m sorry as much as I respect and admire Lambert, he has this one woefully wrong, we need more pace and urgency in the team and Martin has neither.

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[quote user="Paul"]My 8 year old son who has only been into fotoball for about a year was even saying that Martin is slow, has no first touch and takes an age to do anything with the ball.[/quote]Sounds like he has a huge knowledge base and experience to draw that opinion from, we should definitely take him seriously.

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This reeks of Norwich fans finding a scapegoat as usual. Tired of blaming Ruddy are we? Martin did fine yesterday, he was no worse than anyone else and I think he has a part to play.

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[quote user="Paul"]Chris Martin is gash, end of.

My 8 year old son who has only been into fotoball for about a year was even saying that Martin is slow, has no first touch and takes an age to do anything with the ball.

When will the people that think coz he is a Norfolk boy he has to play take the blinkers off and realise he is a league 1 player at best.

I would love to ask Lambert why he keeps playing him coz i''m sorry as much as I respect and admire Lambert, he has this one woefully wrong, we need more pace and urgency in the team and Martin has neither.[/quote]How come he''s playing in a Premiership football team then?[:O]

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[quote user="Paul"]

My 8 year old son who has only been into fotoball for about a year was even saying that Martin is slow, has no first touch and takes an age to do anything with the ball.

[/quote]

This is because kids are stupid.

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Going back to what I said earlier in the thread...

 

Chris Martin does play some nice stuff but that''s all it usually is "nice". Was there ever a time yesterday when Chris Martin had WBA worried? Did he ever worry them the same way that Odemwingie or Long worried us? No, not at all.

 

He''s started the last 3 games and he hasn''t really looked like scoring. He  had 1 very good chance against Chelsea and he put it straight at Hilario. Look how hard he found it to come by goals in the Championship last season, he''s not going to find it any easier in the Premier League.

 

You can get away with having a striker in the team who doesn''t score goals if you''re winning games but we''re not winning games and unless Martin discovers a goal scoring touch very soon his inclusion in the team is going to cost us.

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