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whistleblower

Why last night was important and why it will cost us

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It is clear that many people have bought into the hackneyed and cliched belief (generated by the media amongst others) that the Carling cup is not important and somehow doing well in it will inevitably divert our attention from Premier League survival and it is obviously better that we are out.

What a load of rubbish - Here''s why.......

The Carling Cup provides the only "competitive" football much of the squad will see during the season - exactly which games do you see Korey Smith, Simon Lappin, Adam Drury etc playing in to keep them sharp and match fit - premier league reserve fixtures wont do that.  The carling Cup provides a route for giving folks competitive football against teams who want to beat us not folks feeling their way back from injuries 

No one is suggesting we play our first teamers in the Carling Cup so all issues regarding injuries and tiredness are irrelevant. The team that was put out last night should have had more than enough for MK Dons.  The truth is that many of the players did want to get injured because they feared exclusion from the 25 man Premier League squad - I even heard Lambert telling Russell Martin to "get a F*****g tackle in" - he was livid and so he should be. Fear of getting injured is often what leads to injuries with half-hearted challenges.

I am a long term season ticket holder (20 years plus) and I felt for the people who cant come to games regularly or for whom it is too expensive to bring 2 or 3 kids - they were massively short changed last night. The fans of the future didnt have much to attract them back last night. Further to that I actually HOPE we get drawn away in the FA Cup 3rd round so I dont have to watch that rubbish again.

For those of you who sheep-like repeat the mantra that the Carling Cup doesnt matter need to wake up and realise we have lost an opportunity for competitive fixtures for second string players, revenue and encouraging fans of the future - there is no downside to that

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I totally agree. Of course it would be madness to risk our star players but there will be many members of this squad that hardly get a game this season as well as the youngsters it would have given them the opportunity to play and show what they can do in a competitive areana. arsenal have done this for years. add to this as you say an opportunity for non season ticket holders and kids to actually get to a few games.

I dont blame Lambert. The side he put out was more thancapable of getting a result but they all put in a shift that gave them 4/10

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Yes, it is always important to win games,it breeds confidence after all, and losing games doesn''t.

But for crying out loud, this is one bad game in 2 years. You cannot expect PL and all of the players to get every facet of this ''journey'' that we have had, to be on the money.

Ferguson didn''t get the 1stDiv/Prem thing right initially. He resorts to changed teams in the League Cup. Man U fans would be cheesed off if they had lost to a team they should have been about equal with, but they understand the bigger picture. Anyway, winning the Carling Cup is just a distraction,just ask Birmingham :)

Losing last night does not mean we are getting relegated, but it also doesn''t mean that all those players will play a significant part in the main line up at the weekends this season.

It wasn''t a great performance last night, but it wasn''t the worst we have seen in recent years. I know we have every right to expect high standards after the benchmark PL has set, but lets not get carried away.

These are not Prem players we were watching, these were players who are part of a Prem squad that is 2 weeks old!

MK played some half decent football last night, and could well be in the Championship next season, if they can keep hold of Baldock, so keep a reality check. QPR lost to a team in 21st place in the same League as MK, in front of less than 5,000, so lets take a collective breath and move on.

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It''s not a sheep-like mantra it''s true.

It is no coincidence that Swansea and QPR also bowed out at the first time of asking.

Birmingham won the thing last year and look at them now.

1. The cup doesn''t guarantee competitive fixtures ... you may play a couple of games before being dumped out by a Bolton or a Sunderland away from home. The risk of injuries to the second string is more likely than an opportunity for games.

2. Pennies from the competition cannot compare to the riches of staying in the Premier League.

3. If you think future fans will be put off returning to Carrow Road you are misguided. Look how many season ticket holders we have and how pathetic our recent cup runs have been.

 

This is a competition for mid table Premiership sides and the youth academies of the Champions League contenders. We crashed out to Sunderland last year and Orient in the FA Cup in January and no one mourns those exits.

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Good post - it would be ironic really if some players held back, as it will have now actually further reduced their chances of returning to the first XI.

I don''t think PL would want to lose any match and I bet he was extremely displeased with them. The League Cup is not some meaningless trophy, it''s an important domestic competition. Sounds like some tried harder in the PSFs than they did last night.

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The fringe players that need match time whistleblower are the players who played with an I can''t be @rsed attitude last night, on paper we had a strong enough team to beat MK Dons, many of them first team regulars from last season, it is their fault we lost and no one else''s.

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1) "the risk of injuries to the second string is more likely than an opportunity for games" - players have to be up to match sharpness to play in the Premier League or any other competitive football, injuries are an inveitable part of this unless of course you think we shouldnt play reserve games either - which is the logical extension of your statement

2) "Pennies" - again you misguidedly link premiership survival to progress in the Carling Cup - if the first teamers arent playing how can it be a distraction to them or impact them in any way. Any additional revenue is useful - the 13,000 last nite probably pulled in close to £100k, not an inconsequential sum.Its not 100k versus the premiership payment its 100k on top of that payment and this is in no way threatened by Carling Cup success

3) Current season ticket holders  - you sound like Peter Risdale "Living the dream" for Leeds - support and the riches of the Champions League will last forever and why should we bother about growing the fan base? Every business in the country knows you have to look to the future and keep your customers happy. If relegation comes and the fair weathered fans depart who will fill their shoes?

You have repeated a different opinion - thats your perogative but sometimes you have to dig deeper than the soundbites  

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let''s just wait and see what happens on Saturday before we start calling for the manager and players heads....

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[quote user="Canarino"]Good post - it would be ironic really if some players held back, as it will have now actually further reduced their chances of returning to the first XI. I don''t think PL would want to lose any match and I bet he was extremely displeased with them. The League Cup is not some meaningless trophy, it''s an important domestic competition. Sounds like some tried harder in the PSFs than they did last night.[/quote]

that was the irony of last nite - those who thought they didnt want to risk injury and possible exclusion from the squad did themselves much more harm by performing like that than the much smaller risk of injury

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It will cost us because we have now lost two players to injury, which just goes to prove why we should not dabble in Cups this season. Birmingham City paid the ultimate price for being stupid last season !! 

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[quote user="crabbycanary"]Yes, it is always important to win games,it breeds confidence after all, and losing games doesn''t.

But for crying out loud, this is one bad game in 2 years. You cannot expect PL and all of the players to get every facet of this ''journey'' that we have had, to be on the money.

Ferguson didn''t get the 1stDiv/Prem thing right initially. He resorts to changed teams in the League Cup. Man U fans would be cheesed off if they had lost to a team they should have been about equal with, but they understand the bigger picture. Anyway, winning the Carling Cup is just a distraction,just ask Birmingham :)

Losing last night does not mean we are getting relegated, but it also doesn''t mean that all those players will play a significant part in the main line up at the weekends this season.

It wasn''t a great performance last night, but it wasn''t the worst we have seen in recent years. I know we have every right to expect high standards after the benchmark PL has set, but lets not get carried away.

These are not Prem players we were watching, these were players who are part of a Prem squad that is 2 weeks old!

MK played some half decent football last night, and could well be in the Championship next season, if they can keep hold of Baldock, so keep a reality check. QPR lost to a team in 21st place in the same League as MK, in front of less than 5,000, so lets take a collective breath and move on.[/quote]A very relevant point about Man Utd - if you remember, their second string team were beaten 4-0 by West Ham in the Carling Cup last season. That was a result that would have been unthinkable in the League, but I don''t remember anyone saying that United lacked strength in depth, or that the wheels were coming off the wagon. Everyone accepted that it was a meaningless result in an unimportant competition, and then moved on. We should do the same.

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[quote user="Power Hamster"][quote user="crabbycanary"]Yes, it is always important to win games,it breeds confidence after all, and losing games doesn''t. But for crying out loud, this is one bad game in 2 years. You cannot expect PL and all of the players to get every facet of this ''journey'' that we have had, to be on the money. Ferguson didn''t get the 1stDiv/Prem thing right initially. He resorts to changed teams in the League Cup. Man U fans would be cheesed off if they had lost to a team they should have been about equal with, but they understand the bigger picture. Anyway, winning the Carling Cup is just a distraction,just ask Birmingham :) Losing last night does not mean we are getting relegated, but it also doesn''t mean that all those players will play a significant part in the main line up at the weekends this season. It wasn''t a great performance last night, but it wasn''t the worst we have seen in recent years. I know we have every right to expect high standards after the benchmark PL has set, but lets not get carried away. These are not Prem players we were watching, these were players who are part of a Prem squad that is 2 weeks old! MK played some half decent football last night, and could well be in the Championship next season, if they can keep hold of Baldock, so keep a reality check. QPR lost to a team in 21st place in the same League as MK, in front of less than 5,000, so lets take a collective breath and move on.[/quote]
A very relevant point about Man Utd - if you remember, their second string team were beaten 4-0 by West Ham in the Carling Cup last season. That was a result that would have been unthinkable in the League, but I don''t remember anyone saying that United lacked strength in depth, or that the wheels were coming off the wagon. Everyone accepted that it was a meaningless result in an unimportant competition, and then moved on.

We should do the same.
[/quote]

Oh the irony !! Look where that 4-0 win got West Ham.  [:D]

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Those players had a big chance to impress, they have done the opposite.

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[quote user="whistleblower"]

2) "Pennies" - again you misguidedly link premiership survival to progress in the Carling Cup - if the first teamers arent playing how can it be a distraction to them or impact them in any way. Any additional revenue is useful - the 13,000 last nite probably pulled in close to £100k, not an inconsequential sum.Its not 100k versus the premiership payment its 100k on top of that payment and this is in no way threatened by Carling Cup success

[/quote]

First teamers? Just who are our first eleven? PL has said (and this was telegraphed by the purchase of ''team'' players) that all of the Squad will be playing this season and our first two games bear this out. I don''t know where you get the figure of £100k from but if we go with that it really is peanuts compared to the money earned depending on where you finish in the league (an extra £800k per spot?). PL is rotating the players about in a sensible fashion, we have already picked up some knocks and a suspension but if we were to have two successful cup runs, and the reserve matches on top of our bread''n''butter we could be in serious trouble.

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What really happened last night?

Looking around at other results teams in our similar position managed a graceful exit, ours was slightly less so.

Our players will almost certainly have been briefed not to get injured, we can''t afford it and certainly in the scheme of things the league is our priority.

So maybe as can happen the players were in lower gear, they failed to manage through lack of experience and "tweaking the gear" a reasonably competitive game against a League One side, thats all.

Lesson to be learnt, no need for self flagellation all round.

Still a good thoughtful OP from Whistleblower.

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[quote user="Joanna Grey"][quote user="whistleblower"]

2) "Pennies" - again you misguidedly link premiership survival to progress in the Carling Cup - if the first teamers arent playing how can it be a distraction to them or impact them in any way. Any additional revenue is useful - the 13,000 last nite probably pulled in close to £100k, not an inconsequential sum.Its not 100k versus the premiership payment its 100k on top of that payment and this is in no way threatened by Carling Cup success

[/quote]

First teamers? Just who are our first eleven? PL has said (and this was telegraphed by the purchase of ''team'' players) that all of the Squad will be playing this season and our first two games bear this out. I don''t know where you get the figure of £100k from but if we go with that it really is peanuts compared to the money earned depending on where you finish in the league (an extra £800k per spot?). PL is rotating the players about in a sensible fashion, we have already picked up some knocks and a suspension but if we were to have two successful cup runs, and the reserve matches on top of our bread''n''butter we could be in serious trouble.

[/quote]

I''ll be surprised after the first half dozen games of the season, barring injury, if the starting eleven each week is not picked from this group each week

Ruddy

Naughton, Barnett, Whitbread, De Laet, Ayala, Tierney

Johnson, Bennett, Pilkington, Fox, Hoolahan, Crofts

Holt, Morrison, Vaughan

Wigan was a "thanks" to the team who got us here - Stoke saw more of the team that will feature each week with a couple of changes specifically for Stoke

The following will either not make the squad or barely play

Drury, Ward, Korey Smith, Russell Martin, Chris Martin, Jackson, Simon Lappin, Wilbraham, Ollie, Cody, Andrew Surman (last 3 appearances he has been diabolical), Adeyemi, Francomb, Dawkin, Ball

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What a load of old tosh, I would buy into the fitness thing if the players were like me, overrweight, nearly 50 and exercised very little in the last 4 years. In the last 5 weeks I have gone from not being able to run 50 yards to being able to run 1.5 miles with out stopping,- Footballers exercise every day and it does not take them long to get up to full fitness and the ressie games will help that......

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[quote user="whistleblower"][quote user="Joanna Grey"][quote user="whistleblower"]

2) "Pennies" - again you misguidedly link premiership survival to progress in the Carling Cup - if the first teamers arent playing how can it be a distraction to them or impact them in any way. Any additional revenue is useful - the 13,000 last nite probably pulled in close to £100k, not an inconsequential sum.Its not 100k versus the premiership payment its 100k on top of that payment and this is in no way threatened by Carling Cup success

[/quote]

First teamers? Just who are our first eleven? PL has said (and this was telegraphed by the purchase of ''team'' players) that all of the Squad will be playing this season and our first two games bear this out. I don''t know where you get the figure of £100k from but if we go with that it really is peanuts compared to the money earned depending on where you finish in the league (an extra £800k per spot?). PL is rotating the players about in a sensible fashion, we have already picked up some knocks and a suspension but if we were to have two successful cup runs, and the reserve matches on top of our bread''n''butter we could be in serious trouble.

[/quote]

I''ll be surprised after the first half dozen games of the season, barring injury, if the starting eleven each week is not picked from this group each week

Ruddy

Naughton, Barnett, Whitbread, De Laet, Ayala, Tierney

Johnson, Bennett, Pilkington, Fox, Hoolahan, Crofts

Holt, Morrison, Vaughan

Wigan was a "thanks" to the team who got us here - Stoke saw more of the team that will feature each week with a couple of changes specifically for Stoke

The following will either not make the squad or barely play

Drury, Ward, Korey Smith, Russell Martin, Chris Martin, Jackson, Simon Lappin, Wilbraham, Ollie, Cody, Andrew Surman (last 3 appearances he has been diabolical), Adeyemi, Francomb, Dawkin, Ball

[/quote]The Wigan team was a "Thanks" - that''s bang on.Fox was truly awful last night, worst he''s ever been, avoiding injury doesn''t mean you can''t sprint after Chadwick whe he passes you in midfield, his "assist" in the third goal was as significant as Ayala, Drury & Surman''s assists. I agress that Surs was looking like a player with none of his assets, e.g. awareness/vision/passing. I think once Ward is fit that he will be well in with a shout at CB, admittedly Ayala set up a Dons goal last night, but I''ve seen plenty in Sunday and even a couple of passages of play last night where I think with age he''ll be a sound acquisition and possibly a regular later in the season.Lambert wanted us out of the competition. That''s why there was no ranting and raving and arm-waving from the siedlines as there is in a league game when things aren''t going to plan. The problem was the players were not able to work out how to find the appropriate balance between "get minutes in your legs lads" and "still put enough of a shift in to keep them out".R. Martin would have played on Saturday I beleive until last night''s performance. Would anyone complain if all 11 players who started agaist Stoke (who are fit) are selected against Chelsea? I was immensely proud of them all to a man. I can''t remember the last time I have left two consecutive games feeling so differently.

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While winning breeds confidence and i do believe becomes habit forming, the side put out last night will never play as an 11 in the Premiership so i do not buy the argument that this loss dents the first 11''s confidence. Losing the game and being knocked out of the cup, especially now there are regular reserve matches to keep squad players fit does not really worry me either

The nature of the defeat however, shocking all over the park, lack of desire and a crass inability to recognise lumping it up to Jackson endlessly was not going to bear fruit, is a worry.

The only silver linning to this embarrassment is Lambert can using it as a grounding experience for the Club, the good times have been rolling for 2years and the occasional slap in the face to remind them not to take anyhing for granted should keep them honest

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[quote user="ZiggyPiggy"][quote user="whistleblower"][quote user="Joanna Grey"][quote user="whistleblower"]

2) "Pennies" - again you misguidedly link premiership survival to progress in the Carling Cup - if the first teamers arent playing how can it be a distraction to them or impact them in any way. Any additional revenue is useful - the 13,000 last nite probably pulled in close to £100k, not an inconsequential sum.Its not 100k versus the premiership payment its 100k on top of that payment and this is in no way threatened by Carling Cup success

[/quote]

First teamers? Just who are our first eleven? PL has said (and this was telegraphed by the purchase of ''team'' players) that all of the Squad will be playing this season and our first two games bear this out. I don''t know where you get the figure of £100k from but if we go with that it really is peanuts compared to the money earned depending on where you finish in the league (an extra £800k per spot?). PL is rotating the players about in a sensible fashion, we have already picked up some knocks and a suspension but if we were to have two successful cup runs, and the reserve matches on top of our bread''n''butter we could be in serious trouble.

[/quote]

I''ll be surprised after the first half dozen games of the season, barring injury, if the starting eleven each week is not picked from this group each week

Ruddy

Naughton, Barnett, Whitbread, De Laet, Ayala, Tierney

Johnson, Bennett, Pilkington, Fox, Hoolahan, Crofts

Holt, Morrison, Vaughan

Wigan was a "thanks" to the team who got us here - Stoke saw more of the team that will feature each week with a couple of changes specifically for Stoke

The following will either not make the squad or barely play

Drury, Ward, Korey Smith, Russell Martin, Chris Martin, Jackson, Simon Lappin, Wilbraham, Ollie, Cody, Andrew Surman (last 3 appearances he has been diabolical), Adeyemi, Francomb, Dawkin, Ball

[/quote]

The Wigan team was a "Thanks" - that''s bang on.

Fox was truly awful last night, worst he''s ever been, avoiding injury doesn''t mean you can''t sprint after Chadwick whe he passes you in midfield, his "assist" in the third goal was as significant as Ayala, Drury & Surman''s assists.

I agress that Surs was looking like a player with none of his assets, e.g. awareness/vision/passing.

I think once Ward is fit that he will be well in with a shout at CB, admittedly Ayala set up a Dons goal last night, but I''ve seen plenty in Sunday and even a couple of passages of play last night where I think with age he''ll be a sound acquisition and possibly a regular later in the season.

Lambert wanted us out of the competition. That''s why there was no ranting and raving and arm-waving from the siedlines as there is in a league game when things aren''t going to plan. The problem was the players were not able to work out how to find the appropriate balance between "get minutes in your legs lads" and "still put enough of a shift in to keep them out".

R. Martin would have played on Saturday I beleive until last night''s performance. Would anyone complain if all 11 players who started agaist Stoke (who are fit) are selected against Chelsea? I was immensely proud of them all to a man. I can''t remember the last time I have left two consecutive games feeling so differently.
[/quote]

No complaints from me, I would expect the same line up on Saturday that faced Stoke, with the exception of Morison in for C.Martin; that is no criticism of C.Martin, I just thought against Wigan, Moriosn was our best player and we will benefit from his abilities against Chelsea.

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I wouldn''t be too upset to see one or two key players rested for a game we have little chance of winning. Would also allow some of last night''s players a (slim) chance of redemption.

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I will be pissed off if any of last nights team start against Chelski unless they are in to replace injured players.

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Whistleblower, you rather miss an important point

reality

You talk of the Carling Cup providing competitive football - albeit for the ''fringe'' players. Players who if playing other Premier clubs in this cup may well be also playing their ''fringe'' players. The same players that will be met in the Premier reserve league perhaps, Whisleblower ?

You talk of the money to be made, blithely ignoring the fact that the likelihood is that we will be drawn away and face crowds of a few thousand, where we actually LOSE money. I''m not sure where you got the £100,000 figure from. One that supposes that MK Dons did not receive any share of the gate, there was no VAT paid on the tickets, stewards and other ground staff were not paid either.

Importance in any competition is relative. We have just come off the back of a very hard game against Stoke and will have another hard game on Saturday, away to Chelsea. It is improbable to think that Lambert would throw everything at winning last nights game. Just as it is ridiculous to think that had we have won last night an away game at somewhere like Rochdale would give any of our players competitive football - that would be of any use in keeping them up to Premier League standard.

So it is not sheep like to recognise what our prioroties are - but it maybe an empty headed bleat to imagine it is otherwise.

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whistleblower"]

It is clear that many people have bought into the hackneyed and cliched belief (generated by the media amongst others) that the Carling cup is not important and somehow doing well in it will inevitably divert our attention from Premier League survival and it is obviously better that we are out.

What a load of rubbish - Here''s why.......

The Carling Cup provides the only "competitive" football much of the squad will see during the season - exactly which games do you see Korey Smith, Simon Lappin, Adam Drury etc playing in to keep them sharp and match fit - premier league reserve fixtures wont do that.  The carling Cup provides a route for giving folks competitive football against teams who want to beat us not folks feeling their way back from injuries 

No one is suggesting we play our first teamers in the Carling Cup so all issues regarding injuries and tiredness are irrelevant. The team that was put out last night should have had more than enough for MK Dons.  The truth is that many of the players did want to get injured because they feared exclusion from the 25 man Premier League squad - I even heard Lambert telling Russell Martin to "get a F*****g tackle in" - he was livid and so he should be. Fear of getting injured is often what leads to injuries with half-hearted challenges.

I am a long term season ticket holder (20 years plus) and I felt for the people who cant come to games regularly or for whom it is too expensive to bring 2 or 3 kids - they were massively short changed last night. The fans of the future didnt have much to attract them back last night. Further to that I actually HOPE we get drawn away in the FA Cup 3rd round so I dont have to watch that rubbish again.

For those of you who sheep-like repeat the mantra that the Carling Cup doesnt matter need to wake up and realise we have lost an opportunity for competitive fixtures for second string players, revenue and encouraging fans of the future - there is no downside to that

The clubs atitude in cup competitions in recent years has been c rap!

Some of the clubs best ever moments were during cup runs and I remember the 59 cup run and others since and know that they are very good for the club!

Hopefully one day before I pass on we''ll have a good cup run again in the FA or League cup but I''m not holding my breath!

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[quote user="whistleblower"]

1) "the risk of injuries to the second string is more likely than an opportunity for games" - players have to be up to match sharpness to play in the Premier League or any other competitive football, injuries are an inveitable part of this unless of course you think we shouldnt play reserve games either - which is the logical extension of your statement

2) "Pennies" - again you misguidedly link premiership survival to progress in the Carling Cup - if the first teamers arent playing how can it be a distraction to them or impact them in any way. Any additional revenue is useful - the 13,000 last nite probably pulled in close to £100k, not an inconsequential sum.Its not 100k versus the premiership payment its 100k on top of that payment and this is in no way threatened by Carling Cup success

3) Current season ticket holders  - you sound like Peter Risdale "Living the dream" for Leeds - support and the riches of the Champions League will last forever and why should we bother about growing the fan base? Every business in the country knows you have to look to the future and keep your customers happy. If relegation comes and the fair weathered fans depart who will fill their shoes?

You have repeated a different opinion - thats your perogative but sometimes you have to dig deeper than the soundbites  

[/quote]

 

Whistleblower, I respect your stance and you argue it eloquently but think you do me a disservice by dismissing my points as mere soundbites.

1) Injuries. Cup football is far more combative than reserve football and therefore there is a greater injury threat. It makes no sense to me to risk players like Hoolahan in a meaningless but ''dangerous'' string of extra fixtures.

2) Money. Being on a League Cup run rather than not does decrease our chances of staying in the Premiership. More fixtures = more injuries/fatigue for our squad = less cover = a weaker team for Premiership games = putting £90M at risk.

3) Attendances. Your link to Risdale is unfair. All I''m saying is that I don''t think we need to worry about losing fans because we can''t sustain a decent cup run. 

I''m not looking for an argument I see what you''re saying but I just feel that people have lost a little perspective.

Let''s go for this cup in three years time when we are an established mid table Premiership side ready for a European adventure!  

 

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"putting £90M at risk."

That''s not actually correct

What is at risk, if we assume staying in the League Cup threatens our premier League place, is the extra money we would get next season

That is not £90m.

As it stands it is around £40m ... a considerable difference.

As to League Cup games the early games can actually lose the club money as the costs associated with playing games at Exeter etc are often not met by the split from the gate receipts.

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Plus you play 8 less games in the Prem League fatigue is hardly going to play a part.  As for risk of injuries, I get the impression these days you get just as many in training as well as matches.

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