Nevermind the Buzzcocks Here's the Common Sense

[Bleedin Yellow and Green 0]

As a an avid reader of this forum for several years, reading nearly every NCFC related article on the archant based sites (and others), a passionate fan, supporter and season ticket holder, who has seen us all go through the mediocre, the highs and the lows over many years I feel compelled to post now.

Firstly, many things are going extremely well at the club and after some shocking years it’s a pleasure to watch, experience and enjoy.

This is a great situation, but let’s not be apathetic and wait for things to change or until issues arise and we realise we need a way to voice our concerns and pull together. Even if, and let’s hope it does, this upward turn continues we need a body in place to protect us the fans, our views and our voice.

I’m NOT a member of NCISA.

BUT I DO BELIEVE WE NEED A SUPPORTERS CLUB. AN INDEPENDENT ONE.

Having read the first few pages of the ‘X-Files post’ then briefly slipping into a coma as the blood flowed from my lacerated wrists, only to pull back from the brink - remembering it''s only a game - and we have another one against a beatable West Brom in a little over 10 days. I decided I wanted to say something.

To matters pressing then, OUR great Club, and it OURS - you only need to listen to Mister Lambert occasionally to have heard the mantra - ''without the supporters there is no club'' - if not those precise words in that exact order, then thereabouts (it has gone 4am, after all). The cut and thrust of it; We NEED a supporter''s club. This is a small plea to those fans who really couldn''t care less about the current incarnation of an old supporters association – or, as I may feel is more likely the case, are extremely bored of the tommy tank petty ‘issues’ constantly being bickered over. It seems the old guard and the changing guard had some issues.

Forget the boring squabbles. It appears change has come, a new chair – Robin – I believe, and with him a new committee - it''s also appears, whilst not perfect - they have a new way of looking at things and are willing to listen. Furthermore, it appears they are not the ones fighting openly on this forum - fank tuck. One day we might need this committee, one day we might, no, WILL need this supporter’s association/club. And we''ll need the people at the helm to uphold our views and act with decorum.

I for one believe from what I have read from Robin that he is openly, enthusiastically and humbly trying to move forward to an association, and social supporter’s club that is as widely all-encompassing to us, the supporters. This, in my humble opinion is a VERY good thing. You can''t please all the people all of the time. But if our SUPPORTERS CLUB reflects say 10% of our home gate (home fans only) circa 2500 fans then we are already on the way to being a powerful voice. There’s a lot more supporters unable to make home games, and again I’m sure they would value being part of an association of Norwich City supporters.

NCISA isn’t the only option - do some research, or better still talk to fellow fans - but they might be a good start, have a look like I did to find out more www.ncisa.co.uk

These are great times again, exciting times. What we cannot, and must not be apathetic enough to allow is that the running of our beloved club and our supports club fall into the same hands.

No independence. No Voice.

OTBC!!!

[Joanna Grey 0]

You wrote all that to tell us we need a supporter''s club but failed to post why we need a supporter''s club. Well done.

[Scooby 0]

[quote user="Joanna Grey"]You wrote all that to tell us we need a supporter''s club but failed to post why we need a supporter''s club. Well done.[/quote]

Aaaaaand right on cue ....... (drum roll please)

[Joanna Grey 0]

[quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Joanna Grey"]You wrote all that to tell us we need a supporter''s club but failed to post why we need a supporter''s club. Well done.[/quote] Aaaaaand right on cue ....... (drum roll please)[/quote]

Perhaps you could try actually contributing to this forum for a change and point out where my remark was incorrect or highlight the actual point of the OP''s thread?

[As my login causes problems [ :o) ] 0]

In a bid to be controversial (not again I hear you say) I would suggest that supporters clubs SHOULD be run WITH the Club.

As soon as they attempt to be independent they end up in the land of no-win where they strive to be close but not to close to the club, and as such attacked from all sides.

Equally they struggle to get taken seriously and find a place. They are very similar to 6th form associations at school in that if they are not run WITH the school they become glorified drinking groups offering nothing different to what a group of friends can achieve by themselves.

Without the strong help and suport of NCFC then a supporters group can achieve and do nothing that a group of friends cannot achieve, and that is why NCISA will never get the mass it needs to be regarded as the one true suporters association for NCFC fans.

In the same way that so many other clubs and associations are goint out of existence NCISA will as well.

I have come full circle in my views and actually think that a supporters group run by an independent group of volunteers under the guidance of the NCFC media/PR department is the way forward. This way supporter offers and assistance with travel etc can be offered and people will join for the benefits that brings.

OK if we have another "Chase Out", "Worthy Out", etc moment then that organisation will not join in but to be honest that''s not their place.

(OK Nutty this is an about turn!)

[nutty nigel 7,513]

[quote user="2dotsacircleandawaxingcrescent"]

(OK Nutty this is an about turn!)

[/quote]

 

Good post though 2dots. It pretty much sums up how I have always viewed things. The supporters really are part of the football club. A huge part. And if supporters are honest they want to be a part of it. But when results are disappointing some fans want to be independent because they need tro vent and kick out. A scapegoat is then found and this manager/CE/board/owner becomes the focal point of the anger resulting from disappointing results. But football is cyclical and eventually the clubs fortunes change, they start winning games and become successful again resulting in these fans wanting to be part of the club again. But their organisation is now tainted by what went before and could even be viewed as the enemy by some football club people. After all the  fans scapegoat could have become a huge part of this new success.

 

Going back to Worthyout[:''(] The fans were pretty much split down the middle for over a year. But significantly those who wanted him out had their own organisation which was formed for that purpose. When Worthy finally went that organisation disbanded. Now I didn''t agree with Worthyout but that probably is the way forward in times where the fans are so disgruntled about something at their club. Because the supporters club can then remain neutral and carry on supporting the club. But even back then when there was this Worthyout group some ncisa members were demanding that their organisation should get involved. There were calls for them to withdraw their sponsorship of the assistant manager and stop the canary challenge etc. The trouble with that is that when the fortunes change the club may not want "fairweather fans" to return as if nothing had happened.

 

So the nutty answer to this is for supporters clubs to be supporters clubs and protest groups to be protest groups. However, I don''t think there can be some sort of worzel gummidge of an association with a different head for the fan''s mood of the day.

 

Just one more thing.....

 

Does anybody think the OP waffles more than me[H]

 

 

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

So the nutty answer to this is for supporters clubs to be supporters clubs and protest groups to be protest groups. However, I don''t think there can be some sort of worzel gummidge of an association with a different head for the fan''s mood of the day.

 

[/quote]

 

nutty, I''m not going to try to point out that no-one apart from you is talking about a protest group, which you do so you can put forward this non-sequitur of a stark either-or choice, between a group that only supports and a group that only protests. But I will, after shying away on several occasions, ask you this:

 

You have at least a couple of times said here - and I''m sure this is not misrepresenting you - that it is absurd for a supporters'' group to criticise anything the club does, because the supporters are amateurs who have never run a football club, while the club is by definition run by professionals whose job it is. And therefore, according to you, they know what they''re doing and so must be doing it right. I can''t find a direct quote but that is pretty much word for word what you''ve said.

 

On that basis all football clubs must be well run, and all equally well-run (so Ipswich is as well run as Norwich, for example) and must always be making the right decisions, when plainly they are not.

 

But then on specific issues you have joined in threads directly criticising actions by these supposedly always-right professionals and agreeing with that criticism. Dug-outGate was a recent example. Going back a few months, you said the club hadn''t got every aspect of its ticketing policy right.

 

I wait with bated breath to see how you square this circle.

 

[nutty nigel 7,513]

OK, I''m up for it Purple[Y]

 

I do believe that supporters are amateurs who have never run a football club. I also believe that the majority of us have absolutely no idea how to manage a club, coach players or even play football at the highest level. Some of us have played, managed or run clubs at various levels down the pyramid but very few have had experience at the higher levels.

 

Do you remember a few seasons ago that guy turning up at Colney on his bicycle demanding he be given a trial because he was a regular at Carrow Road and was convinced he could do better? Most people thought he was a crackpot but according to David Williams he looked the part. He apparently resembled Mikael Forssell in looks!! But Williams said that on tv and even in the stands players appear to have more time than they actually have on the pitch. We don''t realise this when we criticise players. I have been lucky enough to visit the Colney classroom and see the player stats. At the time Mark Fotheringham was very much a scapegoat but his stats showed a very different tale to the fans views of him.

 

Here''s another shocker for you - Even if all Football League clubs were equally well run they would still finish somewhere between 1st and 92nd. There would still be more disappointed fans than happy ones. That''s the way of it.

 

Have I ever said it''s absurd for folk to criticise the club or have views on the qualities of it''s players, manager and coaches? Of course not. That''s what places like this forum are for. And some journalists make a living out of doing just that. In fact I understand there''s a Journo and a columnist as guests at the next ncisa forum. So obviously their views are courted by the fans. But going back a few years do you think that Richard Balls and Rick Waghorn could have done a better job than Neil Doncaster and Roger Munby? And would a columnist from the Star be able to go to portman road and do a better job than Cleggy?

 

So I have opinions and views on everything concerning the football club. And i will express those views. And if I feel it''s neccessary I will contact the club with those views whether they may be to praise or criticise. But I honestly don''t feel qualified to make a decision for them.

 

 

[Chunky Norwich 0]

A serious question this but what does a supporters club actually do? Is it like having a Blue Peter badge?

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

OK, I''m up for it Purple[Y]

 

I do believe that supporters are amateurs who have never run a football club. I also believe that the majority of us have absolutely no idea how to manage a club, coach players or even play football at the highest level. Some of us have played, managed or run clubs at various levels down the pyramid but very few have had experience at the higher levels.

 

Do you remember a few seasons ago that guy turning up at Colney on his bicycle demanding he be given a trial because he was a regular at Carrow Road and was convinced he could do better? Most people thought he was a crackpot but according to David Williams he looked the part. He apparently resembled Mikael Forssell in looks!! But Williams said that on tv and even in the stands players appear to have more time than they actually have on the pitch. We don''t realise this when we criticise players. I have been lucky enough to visit the Colney classroom and see the player stats. At the time Mark Fotheringham was very much a scapegoat but his stats showed a very different tale to the fans views of him.

 

Here''s another shocker for you - Even if all Football League clubs were equally well run they would still finish somewhere between 1st and 92nd. There would still be more disappointed fans than happy ones. That''s the way of it.

 

Have I ever said it''s absurd for folk to criticise the club or have views on the qualities of it''s players, manager and coaches? Of course not. That''s what places like this forum are for. And some journalists make a living out of doing just that. In fact I understand there''s a Journo and a columnist as guests at the next ncisa forum. So obviously their views are courted by the fans. But going back a few years do you think that Richard Balls and Rick Waghorn could have done a better job than Neil Doncaster and Roger Munby? And would a columnist from the Star be able to go to portman road and do a better job than Cleggy?

 

So I have opinions and views on everything concerning the football club. And i will express those views. And if I feel it''s neccessary I will contact the club with those views whether they may be to praise or criticise. But I honestly don''t feel qualified to make a decision for them.

 

 

[/quote]

 

As Ronald Reagan nearly said: "There you go again, nutty!" Trying to throw sand in my eyes with lots of deeply fascinating but totally extraneous stuff about the football side of the game. You are to logical argument what I am to solo synchronised underwater darts.

 

The only relevant part of your post is the bit I''ve reddened. Which confirms that I hadn''t misrepresented your view at all. You do think the professionals running a club (and I am talking about the off-field management) will always get it right because it''s their job, and amateurs - such as a supporters'' group -  can therefore never have a valid criticism. Somehow, according to you, their amateurism (using the word literally) disqualifies them even if they might be right.

 

And yet - the point you have not answered - you have sometimes accepted that these amateur criticism are well-founded. You''ve agreed with them publicly. This is the circle you have yet to square. Almost certainly because it is unsquareable.

 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,513]

Shucks!! You don''t like my answer Purple. I thought it was relevant. I mean, it seems that some fans thought they knew so much more than the club about it''s football manager that they formed a protest group to try and get him sacked!

 

Anyway, it''s my turn to play ringaringaroses in your quality circle and ask you a question..

 

How could an outside group interfering in the football club''s business plan in any way help? What are the positives? What does the club have to gain? And which group of fans would it be most beneficial to represent?

 

 

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

Frankly I think what I am about to say is pretty important as it effects all the people bickering.I dont pretend to know any of the people on here IRL or care to for that matter, I am however a frequent user and poster on this forum.What I can not abide is the pathetic nature in which NCISA members / sub members / old guard / new comitee etc etc etc , have conducted themselves on this forum of late. You make what you stand for a pure laughing stock !You should all be ashamed to be honest, If I (or any other forum poster ) was looking to join a group like NCISA you have not managed to promote anything except a childish bunch of adults ( and I use the word adults tentatively ) who quite happily air dirty laundry infront of the whole world potentially !Would I want people like nutty, Beau, :) or anyof these other jokers representing a supporters club for NCFC that I am passionate about ?Short answer no.Your embarassing yourselves !

[As my login causes problems [ :o) ] 0]

Oh Nexus (a connected group I gather), you jump to conclusions and then wade in and give your two penn''rth, just like everyone else really, and then throw stones from within your glass house .... how embarassing.

For me the last time I was embarassed I was in short trousers and find that nothing embarasses me these days as I suspect is the case with the other seasoned participants in this thread.

But then you know best ...

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Shucks!! You don''t like my answer Purple. I thought it was relevant. I mean, it seems that some fans thought they knew so much more than the club about it''s football manager that they formed a protest group to try and get him sacked!

 

Anyway, it''s my turn to play ringaringaroses in your quality circle and ask you a question..

 

How could an outside group interfering in the football club''s business plan in any way help? What are the positives? What does the club have to gain? And which group of fans would it be most beneficial to represent?

 

 

[/quote]

 

---

A straight question, albeit with the loaded word "interfering", which I will change to the rather pompous but more accurate "make representations on" or "give advice on..." or "provide first-hand experience of..." etc etc etc.

 

But on that basis herewith a fact-based example. A key part (arguably THE main part) of any club''s business model is its ticketing policy.

 

Over the two years of the new regime there has been a distinct shift (stated publicly) in the club''s ticketing policy away from "affordable family football". How far this has gone is a question, but there undoubtedly has been a shift. Examples include scrapping the pre-adult casual concession category, the end of the pay-five-years ahead scheme, the raising of the OAP age to 65, and a general raising of prices.

 

All this in a recession, in a comparitively low-wage area, with unemployment rising. To argue against that policy counts in your eyes as amateurs who know nothing (although they are the people who have to find the money to attend games) trying to interfere in the club''s business model. So what did Alan Bowkett say in January after the AGM:

 

“I’ve had some private conversations this evening with people saying ‘It’s getting a bit expensive, Alan’. And I know it is. There is only so far we can put the price up. And in the current environment when people are paying higher taxes, high inflation, flat salaries, one has to be realistic."

 

That seems to be one of your always-right professionals accepting that some of your always-wrong amateurs might occassionally have a point (based on decades of real-life experience of trying to make ends meet) even on something as crucial as the business model. Which was what you asked me to give an example of. Happy to oblige, nutty.[;)]

 

 

 

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

[quote user="Smileyfaceperson"]Oh Nexus (a connected group I gather), you jump to conclusions and then wade in and give your two penn''rth, just like everyone else really, and then throw stones from within your glass house .... how embarassing.

For me the last time I was embarassed I was in short trousers and find that nothing embarasses me these days as I suspect is the case with the other seasoned participants in this thread.

But then you know best ...[/quote]Nexus means to be connected to something regardless of distance.As i lived in the USA i took the name Nexus Canary as I was living in the USA yet still connected by my love of football to Norwich City.LOLMy name choice aside, I was merely pointing out the whole debacle is retarded.As for your somewhat convoluted glass house analogy I think you smashed all your windows out yesterday ?And again, everyone involved did.Like I said, air your dirty laundry someplace else ?Hopefully Pete can clear all this garbage out because its just petty nasty and boring !!

[nutty nigel 7,513]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Shucks!! You don''t like my answer Purple. I thought it was relevant. I mean, it seems that some fans thought they knew so much more than the club about it''s football manager that they formed a protest group to try and get him sacked!

 

Anyway, it''s my turn to play ringaringaroses in your quality circle and ask you a question..

 

How could an outside group interfering in the football club''s business plan in any way help? What are the positives? What does the club have to gain? And which group of fans would it be most beneficial to represent?

 

 

[/quote]

 

---

A straight question, albeit with the loaded word "interfering", which I will change to the rather pompous but more accurate "make representations on" or "give advice on..." or "provide first-hand experience of..." etc etc etc.

 

But on that basis herewith a fact-based example. A key part (arguably THE main part) of any club''s business model is its ticketing policy.

 

Over the two years of the new regime there has been a distinct shift (stated publicly) in the club''s ticketing policy away from "affordable family football". How far this has gone is a question, but there undoubtedly has been a shift. Examples include scrapping the pre-adult casual concession category, the end of the pay-five-years ahead scheme, the raising of the OAP age to 65, and a general raising of prices.

 

All this in a recession, in a comparitively low-wage area, with unemployment rising. To argue against that policy counts in your eyes as amateurs who know nothing (although they are the people who have to find the money to attend games) trying to interfere in the club''s business model. So what did Alan Bowkett say in January after the AGM:

 

“I’ve had some private conversations this evening with people saying ‘It’s getting a bit expensive, Alan’. And I know it is. There is only so far we can put the price up. And in the current environment when people are paying higher taxes, high inflation, flat salaries, one has to be realistic."

 

That seems to be one of your always-right professionals accepting that some of your always-wrong amateurs might occassionally have a point (based on decades of real-life experience of trying to make ends meet) even on something as crucial as the business model. Which was what you asked me to give an example of. Happy to oblige, nutty.[;)]

 

 

 

[/quote]

And how did you know that one of those conversations wasn''t with me Purple? I have already told you that I will make representations to the club if I feel strongly enough about something I don''t like. And equally if I feel strongly about something I do like. What I don''t need is a "supporters trade union" to do it for me. Because in that case that group will be viewed by the club as a pain in the backside just like the individual who only ever makes contact to complain.

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,513]

[quote user="Nexus_Canary"]Would I want people like nutty, [/quote]

What is your problem with me then nexus old boy? Am I not allowed to post my views on these threads? Pete doesn''t seem to have a problem so why do you?

 

 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

OK, I''m up for it Purple[Y]

 

I do believe that supporters are amateurs who have never run a football club. I also believe that the majority of us have absolutely no idea how to manage a club, coach players or even play football at the highest level. Some of us have played, managed or run clubs at various levels down the pyramid but very few have had experience at the higher levels.

 

Do you remember a few seasons ago that guy turning up at Colney on his bicycle demanding he be given a trial because he was a regular at Carrow Road and was convinced he could do better? Most people thought he was a crackpot but according to David Williams he looked the part. He apparently resembled Mikael Forssell in looks!! But Williams said that on tv and even in the stands players appear to have more time than they actually have on the pitch. We don''t realise this when we criticise players. I have been lucky enough to visit the Colney classroom and see the player stats. At the time Mark Fotheringham was very much a scapegoat but his stats showed a very different tale to the fans views of him.

 

Here''s another shocker for you - Even if all Football League clubs were equally well run they would still finish somewhere between 1st and 92nd. There would still be more disappointed fans than happy ones. That''s the way of it.

 

Have I ever said it''s absurd for folk to criticise the club or have views on the qualities of it''s players, manager and coaches? Of course not. That''s what places like this forum are for. And some journalists make a living out of doing just that. In fact I understand there''s a Journo and a columnist as guests at the next ncisa forum. So obviously their views are courted by the fans. But going back a few years do you think that Richard Balls and Rick Waghorn could have done a better job than Neil Doncaster and Roger Munby? And would a columnist from the Star be able to go to portman road and do a better job than Cleggy?

 

So I have opinions and views on everything concerning the football club. And i will express those views. And if I feel it''s neccessary I will contact the club with those views whether they may be to praise or criticise. But I honestly don''t feel qualified to make a decision for them.

 

 

[/quote]

 

As Ronald Reagan nearly said: "There you go again, nutty!" Trying to throw sand in my eyes with lots of deeply fascinating but totally extraneous stuff about the football side of the game. You are to logical argument what I am to solo synchronised underwater darts.

 

The only relevant part of your post is the bit I''ve reddened. Which confirms that I hadn''t misrepresented your view at all. You do think the professionals running a club (and I am talking about the off-field management) will always get it right because it''s their job, and amateurs - such as a supporters'' group -  can therefore never have a valid criticism. Somehow, according to you, their amateurism (using the word literally) disqualifies them even if they might be right.

 

And yet - the point you have not answered - you have sometimes accepted that these amateur criticism are well-founded. You''ve agreed with them publicly. This is the circle you have yet to square. Almost certainly because it is unsquareable.

[/quote]

 

Purple, even you may be surprised at what can be done with some inner circles.

 

OTBC

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

OK, I''m up for it Purple[Y]

 

I do believe that supporters are amateurs who have never run a football club. I also believe that the majority of us have absolutely no idea how to manage a club, coach players or even play football at the highest level. Some of us have played, managed or run clubs at various levels down the pyramid but very few have had experience at the higher levels.

 

Do you remember a few seasons ago that guy turning up at Colney on his bicycle demanding he be given a trial because he was a regular at Carrow Road and was convinced he could do better? Most people thought he was a crackpot but according to David Williams he looked the part. He apparently resembled Mikael Forssell in looks!! But Williams said that on tv and even in the stands players appear to have more time than they actually have on the pitch. We don''t realise this when we criticise players. I have been lucky enough to visit the Colney classroom and see the player stats. At the time Mark Fotheringham was very much a scapegoat but his stats showed a very different tale to the fans views of him.

 

Here''s another shocker for you - Even if all Football League clubs were equally well run they would still finish somewhere between 1st and 92nd. There would still be more disappointed fans than happy ones. That''s the way of it.

 

Have I ever said it''s absurd for folk to criticise the club or have views on the qualities of it''s players, manager and coaches? Of course not. That''s what places like this forum are for. And some journalists make a living out of doing just that. In fact I understand there''s a Journo and a columnist as guests at the next ncisa forum. So obviously their views are courted by the fans. But going back a few years do you think that Richard Balls and Rick Waghorn could have done a better job than Neil Doncaster and Roger Munby? And would a columnist from the Star be able to go to portman road and do a better job than Cleggy?

 

So I have opinions and views on everything concerning the football club. And i will express those views. And if I feel it''s neccessary I will contact the club with those views whether they may be to praise or criticise. But I honestly don''t feel qualified to make a decision for them.

 

 

[/quote]

 

As Ronald Reagan nearly said: "There you go again, nutty!" Trying to throw sand in my eyes with lots of deeply fascinating but totally extraneous stuff about the football side of the game. You are to logical argument what I am to solo synchronised underwater darts.

 

The only relevant part of your post is the bit I''ve reddened. Which confirms that I hadn''t misrepresented your view at all. You do think the professionals running a club (and I am talking about the off-field management) will always get it right because it''s their job, and amateurs - such as a supporters'' group -  can therefore never have a valid criticism. Somehow, according to you, their amateurism (using the word literally) disqualifies them even if they might be right.

 

And yet - the point you have not answered - you have sometimes accepted that these amateur criticism are well-founded. You''ve agreed with them publicly. This is the circle you have yet to square. Almost certainly because it is unsquareable.

[/quote]

 

Purple, even you may be surprised at what can be done with some inner circles.

 

OTBC

 

 

[/quote]

 

On the contrary, Bly, the properties of geometric figures (real and imagined) never cease to surprise me. Like, for example, what happened in the couple of hours I''ve been out to that eight-page thread on NCISA which delighted us all so much and prompted so much constructive discussion. It seeems to have disappeared into a cyber-triangle. I do hope it wasn''t anything I said.

 

[yellowdamien 0]

By the christ this forum gets more boring with every days that passes. The constant bickering and one-up-manship is tragic.

[As my login causes problems [ :o) ] 0]

This forum is many things but I think that tragic is rather dramatic and over the top.

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

OK, I''m up for it Purple[Y]

 

I do believe that supporters are amateurs who have never run a football club. I also believe that the majority of us have absolutely no idea how to manage a club, coach players or even play football at the highest level. Some of us have played, managed or run clubs at various levels down the pyramid but very few have had experience at the higher levels.

 

Do you remember a few seasons ago that guy turning up at Colney on his bicycle demanding he be given a trial because he was a regular at Carrow Road and was convinced he could do better? Most people thought he was a crackpot but according to David Williams he looked the part. He apparently resembled Mikael Forssell in looks!! But Williams said that on tv and even in the stands players appear to have more time than they actually have on the pitch. We don''t realise this when we criticise players. I have been lucky enough to visit the Colney classroom and see the player stats. At the time Mark Fotheringham was very much a scapegoat but his stats showed a very different tale to the fans views of him.

 

Here''s another shocker for you - Even if all Football League clubs were equally well run they would still finish somewhere between 1st and 92nd. There would still be more disappointed fans than happy ones. That''s the way of it.

 

Have I ever said it''s absurd for folk to criticise the club or have views on the qualities of it''s players, manager and coaches? Of course not. That''s what places like this forum are for. And some journalists make a living out of doing just that. In fact I understand there''s a Journo and a columnist as guests at the next ncisa forum. So obviously their views are courted by the fans. But going back a few years do you think that Richard Balls and Rick Waghorn could have done a better job than Neil Doncaster and Roger Munby? And would a columnist from the Star be able to go to portman road and do a better job than Cleggy?

 

So I have opinions and views on everything concerning the football club. And i will express those views. And if I feel it''s neccessary I will contact the club with those views whether they may be to praise or criticise. But I honestly don''t feel qualified to make a decision for them.

 

 

[/quote]

 

As Ronald Reagan nearly said: "There you go again, nutty!" Trying to throw sand in my eyes with lots of deeply fascinating but totally extraneous stuff about the football side of the game. You are to logical argument what I am to solo synchronised underwater darts.

 

The only relevant part of your post is the bit I''ve reddened. Which confirms that I hadn''t misrepresented your view at all. You do think the professionals running a club (and I am talking about the off-field management) will always get it right because it''s their job, and amateurs - such as a supporters'' group -  can therefore never have a valid criticism. Somehow, according to you, their amateurism (using the word literally) disqualifies them even if they might be right.

 

And yet - the point you have not answered - you have sometimes accepted that these amateur criticism are well-founded. You''ve agreed with them publicly. This is the circle you have yet to square. Almost certainly because it is unsquareable.

[/quote]

 

Purple, even you may be surprised at what can be done with some inner circles.

 

OTBC

 

[/quote]

On the contrary, Bly, the properties of geometric figures (real and imagined) never cease to surprise me. Like, for example, what happened in the couple of hours I''ve been out to that eight-page thread on NCISA which delighted us all so much and prompted so much constructive discussion. It seeems to have disappeared into a cyber-triangle. I do hope it wasn''t anything I said.

[/quote]

 

Yes indeed, this forum has certainly become something of a Bermuda triangle in recent months.

 

The mods should eschew laziness and zap offending posts instead of consigning whole threads into that bin of theirs. 

 

OTBC

[nutty nigel 7,513]

That''s another change since you were last here 2dots. The forum is now full of plastic mods. Shouldn''t be surprised if that''s another reason the report button never gets dusty.

 

 

[Ruddygore 0]

That must be the third or fourth post of yours mentioning plastic mods in the last dozen or so hours Nutty Sir, I hope this isn''t a new bee in your bonnet :)

In my tiny experience it is people who don''t post that press that little old report button. Repression or some such most likely. I tend to agree that it is getting boring to have whole threads removed when just possibly one or two posts may have been offensive. No way of knowing since I must have missed something - maybe someone can fill us in but it''s not modding or even plastic modding is it?

Plastic Trolling, maybe theres some mileage in that discussion.

[nutty nigel 7,513]

There seems to be far less tolerance on here just lately. And, as has been said, losing whole threads can be irritating. A few months ago a thread I started was removed and I got notification as to why. So maybe it''s just the OP who gets notified. I don''t start many threads, ''cept the Rays Funds, so I wouldn''t know.

 

Pete used to have another string to his bow. If a thread started to get too insulting the offending posts would be removed and the thread locked down. A bit like a Nexus lock in! I never see that anymore.

 

Some of the posts on here used to be far more insulting than we get now. Some of the stuff between me and mello was way worse than the mild banter that gets pulled just lately.

 

As for plastic mods, that is a new concept. Live and let live doesn''t happen on here anymore. There''s always some jobsworth introducing himself to debates, not to take part, but to try and force their own values on others. These jobsworths have now started to believe they speak for everyone else too. Unbelievable Jeff!

 

Threads, by their nature have a very short lifespan. Most drop down the board out of sight after just a few days. Some hang around for 20 odd pages but if those don''t interest me then I don''t bother to go back time and time again just to complain.

 

Have I mentioned jobsworths more than plastic mods on this post? Maybe jobsworth is the bee of the day[;)]

 

 

[Coelho 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]As for plastic mods, that is a new concept. Live and let live doesn''t happen on here anymore. There''s always some jobsworth introducing himself to debates, not to take part, but to try and force their own values on others. These jobsworths have now started to believe they speak for everyone else too. Unbelievable Jeff![/quote]I presume I am included among those ''jobsworths'' who were simply trying to stop people bickering and get people involved in constructive debate. The main problem is that so many people seem unwilling or unable to extend an olive branch to other posters. Nothing more boring than a diplomat, is there? [;)]

[As my login causes problems [ :o) ] 0]

To be fair you don''t come across as a diplomat move an agent provocateur ....

[As my login causes problems [ :o) ] 0]

more even ....

[Coelho 0]

[quote user="Non matching quote blocks in post"]To be fair you don''t come across as a diplomat move an agent provocateur ....[/quote]I''ll take that as a compliment... they clearly can''t resist my charms [;)]

[As my login causes problems [ :o) ] 0]

A sense of deja vu ....