Jump to content
Note to existing users - password reset is required Read more... ×
Sign in to follow this  
Sideshow Tim

The 'playing it across the defence' building

Recommended Posts

I mentioned last season that building from the defence would be a dangerous game in the Premier League as we wouldn''t have enough time on the ball.

Alas - what happens the first game of the new Premier League season? We get caught out twice!

Surely it is time to ditch this plan. I still really cant see what we achieve by constantly passing the ball through the defence and goalkeeper anyway?

On a positive note i thought that once we settled down we looked good yesterday and the away support was absolutely fantastic, really great atmosphere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still think it is a relevant tactic,but yesterday brought home how fast some these Prem players actually are.Any dawdling and we will get caught out.Hopefully our defenders will learn from their Wigan experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Herman "]I still think it is a relevant tactic,but yesterday brought home how fast some these Prem players actually are.Any dawdling and we will get caught out.Hopefully our defenders will learn from their Wigan experience.[/quote]Agreed. Just a bit more urgency and I think it''s a valid way to keep the ball, let our midfield best position themselves for the attack, and keep the ball away from the opposition. I don''t think any of them will be trying to keep the ball for so long anymore this season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agree completely with OP, my one criticism of yesterday''s performance was that there was a little too much messing about with pointless to-and-fro passes at the back which were occasionally intercepted by their players, particularly Moses, who was as fast as a rocket. You only have to make one mistake with predatory strikers lurking and you''re done for. I can''t quite understand why we play out from the back so much, Ruddy has a great kick and if he''d booted the ball more often it would have been Wigan under the same sort of pressure. I know we are good at passing play, but these teams we''re facing now will be rather smarter than many we faced last season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Disagree, the plan - in theory - works. The whole idea behind passing it between the central defence is so it draws someone in and allows space for the ball to be played into the midfield line. Also when using the diamond by drawing the striker in, the ball can be worked in triangles out to the full backs in a quick counter attack move. Problem is we didn''t have enough movement in the midfield area. We were too flat at times and this meant hesitation by the defenders as they looked for somewhere to pass. In that case being that we are not Barcelona, the CB''s might as well pass it back to Ruddy to boot up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Playing the ball in the defence is fine, as long as you pass quick enough, which means Fox, Crofts and Surman (or whoever is playing in their positions) need to make them selves available.

Canarino, Ruddys great kicks. Yes he is a good kicker, but did you see how many long balls yesterday amounted to nothing? We don''t play like that, its a secondary tactic that doesn''t work that well for us, even with Holt and Morrison up front.

You can''t base the whole seasons tactics on one game, i''m 100% sure Lambert isn''t going to ditch his tactics that have served him well for the past two years, its why he has these defenders that can pass the ball well. Maybe yesterday everyone was a bit more nervous than they will be in most games, but come the Stoke game next Sunday, we will still be passing the ball along the back line, but i think it will be quicker, and improved to make sure mistakes like those don''t happen too often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see what you mean Gingerpele, but I thought part of the problem of things amounting to nothing was that Holt did not seem to be playing as an attacking striker - he was less mobile, using his strength to hold the opposition up and then flicking or knocking the ball on. He is very good at this and it''s something not every striker can do, but I thought we sort of lost something that he usually provides.

I can''t see how passing along the back line will benefit us against the big 5 or 6 teams, but maybe Stoke will be a different matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I too expressed concerns at this tactic last year, we will give too many goals away this year if we persist. Legend, you say ''in theory'' this works but it does not unfortunately work in practise because we simply do not have the players in defence skilled enough to play this passing game across the back; they look as nervous as hell when they are doing it. Not only that but premier teams are wise to this tactic and will just refuse to be drawn in, allowing the supporters and then the team to lose patience, leading to the inevitable mistakes. Also, as you rightly point out we do not have the right movement in midfield. Maybe its work in progress, but they need to get it right quickly!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Canarino"]Agree completely with OP, my one criticism of yesterday''s performance was that there was a little too much messing about with pointless to-and-fro passes at the back which were occasionally intercepted by their players, particularly Moses, who was as fast as a rocket. You only have to make one mistake with predatory strikers lurking and you''re done for. I can''t quite understand why we play out from the back so much, Ruddy has a great kick and if he''d booted the ball more often it would have been Wigan under the same sort of pressure. I know we are good at passing play, but these teams we''re facing now will be rather smarter than many we faced last season.[/quote]

Will yoiu come on here next week and critisise Stoke next week for being "long Ball" specialists. I like the way we play at the moment and if we get caught out so be it. We have played one game and we are on a learning curve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, it''s simply my opinion TGD (and that of a few others it appears), but I am just going by what I saw yesterday. Obviously we''ll have to adapt game by game, but Wigan may have been the game for a few more long balls. Their keeper was not very confident and a bit flappy at times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="ManchesterCanary"]I too expressed concerns at this tactic last year, we will give too many goals away this year if we persist. Legend, you say ''in theory'' this works but it does not unfortunately work in practise because we simply do not have the players in defence skilled enough to play this passing game across the back; they look as nervous as hell when they are doing it. Not only that but premier teams are wise to this tactic and will just refuse to be drawn in, allowing the supporters and then the team to lose patience, leading to the inevitable mistakes. Also, as you rightly point out we do not have the right movement in midfield. Maybe its work in progress, but they need to get it right quickly!
[/quote]

I think in theory for us it should work as much as Man Utd etc. De Leat looks like he''s got something about him, even after that awful mistake - something I doubt you will see from him again. Disagree about Prem teams'' not being drawn in. If we - a newly promoted side - are passing it around our back line, other sides will indeed push higher up the field to try and nick the ball from us, leaving space behind for a penetrative pass. Yesterday we didn''t show enough movement in midfield but we certainly have players capable, just early season jitters and getting accustomed to Prem League teams. We will be OK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me it does remain the right tactic - retain poessession and pass to keep it from the back is they way to go.

I think being caught in possession yest is more about the lack of experience at this level  - the pace of players is greater and so as defenders you get less time on the ball than you do in the champs. Whitbreads was more embarassing having already seen his colleague suffer but fortunately diame had a rush of blood to the head!

Even richardson messed up yest for sunderland,  it not the end of the world and its something we can work and rectify quickly.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yesterday was a useful lesson. We need to retain possession in the Premier League. But be sensible about it at the same time.Lambert will get them working on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two mistakes due to nerves and inexperience at this level. With the likes of Whitbread, Ward and De Laet not utilising their passing ability means not playing to their strengths. They''ll have learned for the match to be a bit more careful but overall when they play that''s how we need to work the ball. When Barnett is on I doubt we''ll play like that as he doesn''t have the touch for it. Maybe against the top teams we''ll use him and play a bit more direct from the back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good thread. The best passing defender we have from last season is Ward who often goes into midfield when we press; the worst is Barnett who IMO has most to prove at this level.

Whitbread therefore got the nod next to our quickest defender but he is our worst at being run one on one.

Our best pairing is probably Ward and De Laet although Whitbread will be ideal against Stoke as he can head - unlike Barnett who must have a head shaped like a 50p piece.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yesterday they were caught out, however I think that they should still do it, as it works well to keep hold of the ball and mentally wear down the other team.

What would you suggest instead?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Ayala be available for us next week? I''m assuming that he will, and if Ward is still not fit we will probably see him come on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the point is that the passing has to have a purpose.

Nothing annoys me more at CR than when fans groan after a spell of possession which hasn''t moved the ball forward. Funnily, none of these fans groan when we lump it aimlessly forward and give it away.

The problem is that when we do knock it around at the back, too often it does lead to us hoofing it upfield because, while our CBs are reasonably comfortable on the ball, they are not Rio Ferdinand. So, one slightly poor touch and either you have to hoof it, or the forward nicks it off you.

The key, it seems to me, is that the defensive midfielder needs to give the CBs an option so that we can create triangles rather than simply passing it laterally across the field, achieving nothing. Or the "Fotheringham parallel", as it''s known.

Whatever the answer is, it''s not Ruddy booting it forward. If keeping the ball is good enough for Xavi, it''s good enough for us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="zak123"]Yesterday they were caught out, however I think that they should still do it, as it works well to keep hold of the ball and mentally wear down the other team.

What would you suggest instead?[/quote]

Agreed - it''s not the ''pace'' of these so called wonderful premiership players that caught us out yesterday, it was us trying to dummy their way past an opponent and getting done that was the problem. It happened more than once last year with Ward or Zak getting caught and that was against so called ''lesser'' players.

That element of the possession football needs to be carefully controlled if not eradicated but if we abandon the basic philosophy that will be a disaster. Hoofing it (which is the basic alternative) will almost always end up in lost possession. That tactic would ensure a one season only place in the current Premier League!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What''s the point of having a midfield comprised of passers and hosting talents such as David Fox and Wes Hoolahan if you are just going to bypass all of them with constant long balls?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We are at our best when we play a patient pasing game which means there will inevitably be some sideways/backwards passing in our own half. A couple of individual errors in one game should not influence us into changing our style of play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Passing from the back is the professional way. Barcelona do not have big players like Stoke - and the way Barca play serves well as the modern-day methodology for success.

The days of Duncan Forbes hoofball are long gone. Franz Beckenbauer showed during the 70’s how to play effectively from the back – it’s hardly anything new.

Apart from a few nerves and poor first touches amongst our players (Holt would normally bury that chance he had against Wigan) the main ‘wake up call’ for us in the Prem is the opposition’s sheer speed of thought and pace. Victor Moses was simply electric. Who do we have with anything similar? Simeon Jackson maybe – in which case we may well see more of Jacko. If pace is vital and chances are few, we’ll need Vaughan to be fit for purpose too. Sooner than later.

I thought Morison adapted really well – well focussed, intelligent and powerful. He also retained the ball well, which relates back to this thread; we simply HAVE to maximise possession of the ball in the Prem or suffer the consequences. Patiently building from the back is where it starts.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that is a given Harry.

Would like to see Ward back asap, anyone know anything been said on how much longer he will be out?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×