Relegation Mini-League

[CantonsHero 0]

That''s a really good idea Canary on the Trent. (Nearly abbreviated your name until I saw what it almost looks like).

It''s my mistake, but WBA should be 4 rivals played and thus 1.25 on your scale.

But your table, much more so than mine shows that QPR are really in a false position and Wigan are in dire trouble.

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

Just spotted a mistake, Norwich have 10pts rather than 11, you''ve included the Stoke game instead of WBA.

I hope the others are correct though.

[T 190]

I would also suggest points per game against relegation rivals. That is not the whole story as picking up points against bigger teams obviously counts but would nore explicitly highlight for instance the false position of Bolton becasue of their difficult fixture list.

[CantonsHero 0]

We''ll have 3 tables then:

LEAGUE TABLE SNAPSHOT (Week 8 - Sat)

11pts Norwich City (5 rivals played 3H, 2A)

9pts QPR (6 rivals played, 2H, 4A)

8pts Swansea (4 rivals played, 3H, 1A)

7pts Everton (3 rivals played; 2H, 1A)

7pts Wolverhampton Wanders (3 rivals played; 2H, 1A)

7pts Fulham (4 rivals played; 2H, 2A)

6pts Sunderland (3 rivals played; 1H. 2A)

6pts Bolton Wanderers (3 rivals played; 1H, 2A)

---

5pts Blackburn Rovers (3 rivals played; 1H, 2A)

5pts WBA (4 rivals played; 1H, 3A)

5pts Wigan Athletic (5 rivals played, 2H, 3A)

---

HEAD-TO-HEAD TABLE (Week 8 - Sat)

10pts Norwich City from 5 games (2pt AV)

7pts QPR from 6 games (1.17)

6pts Everton from 3 games (2)

6pts Wolverhampton Wanders from 3 games (2)

6pts Bolton Wanderers from 3 games (2)

5pts Swansea from 4 games (1.25)

5pts Fulham from 4 games (1.25)

5pts WBA from 4 games (1.25)

---

5pts Wigan Athletic from 5 games (1)

2pts Sunderland from 3 games (0.67)

2pts Blackburn Rovers from 3 games (0.67)

AVERAGES TABLE (Week 8 - Sat)

2pts per game

Norwich City from (10/5)

Everton from (6/3)

Wolverhampton Wanders (6/3)

Bolton Wanderers (6/3)

1.25

Swansea (5/4)

Fulham (5/4)

WBA (5/4)

1.17

QPR (7/6)

---

1

Wigan Athletic (5/5)

0.67

Sunderland (2/3)

Blackburn Rovers (2/3)

[CantonsHero 0]

1 points per game is relegation form as it is, and considering Wigan, Sunderland and Blackburn have this AGAINST THE BOTTOM TEAMS suggest these three are early strugglers not Bolton and WBA as the league table would suggest.

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

We''ve played 5 of the expected strugglers and 2 of the top 4/5 away from home. Yet just 1 of the middle-tiered sides.

Games against Villa, Everton, Newcastle & Stoke are opportunities to pick up points but aren''t anywhere near as crucial as games against Swansea/Wigan/Blackburn etc because picking up points is also taking away potential points.

Obvious you may say but 3points against Swansea is worth so much more than 3points against Villa in a few weeks.

[lake district canary 0]

Why do so many people talk about a "relegation mini-league" ? "A relegation scrap"

What divine right do certain teams have over others, just because they have more money??

You have to go into a league with a positive attitude. If you go into a league thinking you will be happy with 17th. place, thats probably where you''ll end up, or worse.

If your mental attitude is positive, you will achieve more than if you are constantly thinking about negative stuff, like relegation etc.

Media, Sky, BBC - it''s in their interests to have the biggest, wealthiest clubs at the top. So called lesser clubs have for afew years been duped into thinking they are inferior. If you''re positive you can compete. Look at Stoke, look at Norwich!!! It is possible to compete with the larger clubs.

If you carry on thinking about the only teams that matter are the ''relegation mini-league'' you''ll be negating everything that PL is trying to do.

Positive attitude - positive energy - play to win EVERY game. That way you will have a more enjoyable season. Sure you''re going to lose some you would rather have won, but you will also have some results where you win against the odds.

BE POSITIVE!!

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

LDC, as much as I agree with your rehetoric I think you have missed the point of this.Its not a pesimistic approach but more of one showing us our progress against our competitors. For the likes of Manure , Chelski , Liverlose its all about the actual Prem table and finishing top.For us its more realistic to think about avoiding the drop.All that is happening here is that results vs people in a similar situation to us are being collected to show realistically how we are actually performing in regards to staying up.Actually I see this thread as a very positive resource of stats rather than a negative outlook !!

[CantonsHero 0]

Spot on Nexus.

Look what this thread is telling everyone. Out of the 8,9,10 teams that are in and around the drop zone, we are top of the league, we are the best of the group, we are doing a spot on job.

Remove ManU, remove Chelsea, remove Liverpool and Spurs and Arsenal and Man City, and we are among the best!

People have always talked about different tiers of the premier league. We are top of tier 3! How good is that?

[lake district canary 0]

But that''s my whole point.

If you separate the league into mini leagues you''re in danger of creating a self fulfilling prophecy.

If you enter a league your aim is to win it!!

It doesn''t matter if it''s league 1 or the premiership or any other league.

If you limit your view of a league to finishing top of the bottom eight, you are not giving the league a proper go.

I''m not saying we''re going to win the premiership, but for too long peoople have been too negative about being in the premiership.

Play the whole league, thats what I say!

[T 190]

Thank''s cantonshero! it is indeed postive as it shows that we are doing well even allowing for our relatively easy fixture list. I''m afraid it is relevant as only one team last year finished more than two places above the position indicated by their wage bill and I suspect we are in 19th place based on our wages bill. Stoke is not a relevant comparison as they receive massive subsidies from their owner.

[lake district canary 0]

I''m beginning to get worked up a bit now.

How can you say we''ve had a relatively easy fixture list??? I don''t know where some of you are coming from. Every match is difficult in whichever league you are in. The fact we are doing well is because we are doing well! End of story.

There is somewhere this idea that the premiership is somehow different from other leagues. Well it''s not. You enter the league on the same footing as everyone else, regardless of size, finances etc. Look at Arsenal at the moment. Any club can have a good or bad run. It''s up to all teams to compete on the same level as all the others in the league. You never know where you could end up. It''s high time some of the hype, perpetuated largely by the media, was got rid of so people would start treating the premiership like a proper league and not a two tiered, three tiered or seven tiered one.

[CantonsHero 0]

LEAGUE TABLE SNAPSHOT (Week 8)

11pts Norwich City (5 rivals played 3H, 2A)

9pts QPR (6 rivals played, 2H, 4A)

8pts Swansea (4 rivals played, 3H, 1A)

8pts WBA (5 rivals played; 2H, 3A)

7pts Everton (3 rivals played; 2H, 1A)

7pts Wolverhampton Wanders (4 rivals played; 2H, 2A)

7pts Fulham (4 rivals played; 2H, 2A)

6pts Sunderland (3 rivals played; 1H. 2A)

---

6pts Bolton Wanderers (3 rivals played; 1H, 2A)

5pts Blackburn Rovers (3 rivals played; 1H, 2A)

5pts Wigan Athletic (5 rivals played, 2H, 3A)

HEAD-TO-HEAD TABLE (Week 8)

10pts Norwich City from 5 games (2pt AV)

8pts WBA from 5 games (1.6)

7pts QPR from 6 games (1.17)

6pts Everton from 3 games (2)

6pts Bolton Wanderers from 3 games (2)

6pts Wolverhampton Wanders from 4 games (1.5)

5pts Swansea from 4 games (1.25)

5pts Fulham from 4 games (1.25)

---

5pts Wigan Athletic from 5 games (1)

2pts Sunderland from 3 games (0.67)

2pts Blackburn Rovers from 3 games (0.67)

AVERAGES TABLE (Week 8)

2.00 Norwich City from (10/5)

2.00 Everton from (6/3)

2.00 Bolton Wanderers (6/3)

1.60 WBA (8/4)

1.50 Wolverhampton Wanders (6/4)

1.25 Swansea (5/4)

1.25 Fulham (5/4)

1.17 QPR (7/6)

---

1.00 Wigan Athletic (5/5)

0.67 Sunderland (2/3)

0.67 Blackburn Rovers (2/3)

[T 190]

No need to get worked up. It is different - there is a very close statistical correlation between the wage bill and the final league position in the premiership such that you can very closely predict the final league position at the end of the season at the start of the season because there is such a large disparity in the financial position of clubs in the premiership compared to other leagues. Those are the facts. Just look at the guardian article on football finance and compare the wage bills with the final league position to see the reality. Hence CantonHero''s table are indeed informative whether people like them or not.

[lake district canary 0]

Hmmm.....

I understand the points being made and the statistical details as they are portrayed.

My only point is that by saying we only pay these wages therefore we are going to finish 18th or 19th or whatever, is actually counter-productive.

Facts are facts, I know, but if any teams are going to make a breakthrough such as Notts Forest with Brian Clough or NCFC with Mike Walker, it means they are going to have to buck these trends.

Teamwork and a positive attitude are what got us there in the early 90s and where we are now. This has to be the way forward.

The so called powerful clubs with all their wage structure do not always have the best ''teams'' - they quite often play as individuals - and that is a weakness that teams like ours have to expolit.

My dream is that we can be the team to break the mould with more limited means - and with a better attitude than the ''top'' clubs.

That''s why I think we have to get away from the relegation culture that exists in the so called mini-league. Just accepting that it exists gives it a power of its own and it becomes a self perpetuating reality.

The premier league for all its faults is still a complete league and all clubs start out at the beginning of the season equal. If you start the league trying to finish top of the bottom eight, you''re not really competing in the whole league.

A more positive way to approach it is the way PL does things. Attempt to win every match, and if you can''t win it, make sure you don''t lose it.

I think we should as fans have the same attitude to the league and you never know where you could end up.

Forget the mini-league and play every game to win.

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

I don''t dispute that LDC, we''ve shown in every game that we can hold our own but as mentioned we''re just being realistic and appreciating what a tough ask we have this season to stay in the Premier League.

I don''t see that as pessimistic attitude setting ourselves up for defeat, quite the opposite and is the same attitude Lambert has adopted. We will go through tough patches, we''re kidding ourselves if we think we''re not.

[lake district canary 0]

Realistic is accepting that things could get tough, I agree with you there. All games are tough.

Somehow though I feel that we have to be more positive as fans in enjoying the ride rather than worrying about possible relegation or not.

I do not want to spend the whole season worrying about 17th place. I want to celebrate the fact that we are playing the best clubs in the land and competing on an even footing.

If ultimately we don''t make 17th position or higher at least we will have given it a good go with a strong team and a good manager.

[Bill 1,788]

"Its not a pesimistic approach but more of one showing us our progress against our competitors"

Load of old sh!te !

There is only one measure of our progress against our competitors and that is the league table.

Take a look sometime.

[CantonsHero 0]

LEAGUE TABLE SNAPSHOT (Week 9 - Saturday)

12pts Norwich City (5 rivals played 3H, 2A)

11pts WBA (5 rivals played; 2H, 3A)

9pts Sunderland (4 rivals played; 1H. 3A)

9pts Swansea (5 rivals played, 3H, 2A)

9pts QPR (6 rivals played, 2H, 4A)

8pts Wolverhampton Wanders (5 rivals played; 3H, 2A)

7pts Everton (3 rivals played; 2H, 1A)

7pts Fulham (4 rivals played; 2H, 2A)

---

6pts Bolton Wanderers (4 rivals played; 2H, 2A)

5pts Blackburn Rovers (3 rivals played; 1H, 2A)

5pts Wigan Athletic (5 rivals played, 2H, 3A)

HEAD-TO-HEAD TABLE

10pts Norwich City from 5 games (2pt AV)

8pts WBA from 5 games (1.6)

7pts Wolverhampton Wanders from 5 games (1.4)

7pts QPR from 6 games (1.17)

6pts Everton from 3 games (2)

6pts Bolton Wanderers from 4 games (1.5)

6pts Swansea from 5 games (1.2)

5pts Fulham from 4 games (1.25)

---

5pts Sunderland from 4 games (1.25)

5pts Wigan Athletic from 5 games (1)

2pts Blackburn Rovers from 3 games (0.67)

AVERAGES TABLE (Week 8)

2.00 Norwich City from (10/5)

2.00 Everton from (6/3)

1.60 WBA (8/5)

1.50 Bolton Wanderers (6/4)

1.40 Wolverhampton Wanders (7/5)

1.25 Fulham (5/4)

1.25 Sunderland (5/4)

1.20 Swansea (6/5)

---

1.17 QPR (7/6)

1.00 Wigan Athletic (5/5)

0.67 Blackburn Rovers (2/3)

[CantonsHero 0]

An amazing weekend for Norwich. An away game to Liverpool and to top off the amazing result, we extended the already substantial gap from the relegation zone that we had. Now six points.

Results across the weekend went ok for us with only QPR and Villa bringing points from outside the mini-league.

---

LEAGUE TABLE SNAPSHOT (Week 9)

12pts Norwich City (5 rivals played 3H, 2A)

12pts QPR (6 rivals played, 2H, 4A)

11pts WBA (5 rivals played; 2H, 3A)

10pts Everton (4 rivals played; 2H, 2A)

9pts Sunderland (4 rivals played; 1H. 3A)

9pts Swansea (5 rivals played, 3H, 2A)

8pts Wolverhampton Wanders (5 rivals played; 3H, 2A)

7pts Fulham (5 rivals played; 3H, 2A)

---

6pts Bolton Wanderers (4 rivals played; 2H, 2A)

5pts Blackburn Rovers (3 rivals played; 1H, 2A)

5pts Wigan Athletic (5 rivals played, 2H, 3A)

HEAD-TO-HEAD TABLE

10pts Norwich City from 5 games (2pt AV)

9pts Everton from 4 games (2.25)

8pts WBA from 5 games (1.6)

7pts Wolverhampton Wanders from 5 games (1.4)

7pts QPR from 6 games (1.17)

6pts Bolton Wanderers from 4 games (1.5)

6pts Swansea from 5 games (1.2)

5pts Fulham from 5 games (1)

---

5pts Sunderland from 4 games (1.25)

5pts Wigan Athletic from 5 games (1)

2pts Blackburn Rovers from 3 games (0.67)

AVERAGES TABLE (Week 8)

2.25 Everton from (9/4)

2.00 Norwich City from (10/5)

1.60 WBA (8/5)

1.50 Bolton Wanderers (6/4)

1.40 Wolverhampton Wanders (7/5)

1.25 Sunderland (5/4)

1.20 Swansea (6/5)

1.17 QPR (7/6)

---

1.00 Fulham (5/5)

1.00 Wigan Athletic (5/5)

0.67 Blackburn Rovers (2/3)

--

Only Blackburn and Wigan are in the bottom three in all tables. Fulham''s form though against relegation rivals is just as bad.

Blackburn have only played 3 rivals which is the smallest amount of any of the teams in the group and put up a good performance today. Before Christmas they have a run of us, Wigan and Sunderland all away and Swansea at home along with WBA and Bolton. A massive run for them.

I think it might not be too long before we can remove Everton from this group. Top of the head to head table bodes extremely well for them; dropping only points against QPR.

MASSIVE GAMES NEXT WEEKEND

Norwich vs. Blackburn

Swansea vs. Bolton

Wigan vs. Fulham

[Mister Chops 7]

Shouldn''t this be a "Mid Table Respectability Mini-League"?

[Unhinged Canary 375]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]Shouldn''t this be a "Mid Table Respectability Mini-League"?[/quote]ZING! [Y]

[CantonsHero 0]

LEAGUE TABLE SNAPSHOT (Week 10 - Saturday)

13pts Norwich City (6 rivals played 4H, 2A)

12pts QPR (6 rivals played, 2H, 4A)

12pts Swansea (6 rivals played, 4H, 2A)

11pts WBA (5 rivals played; 2H, 3A)

10pts Sunderland (4 rivals played; 1H. 3A)

10pts Everton (4 rivals played; 2H, 2A)

10pts Fulham (6 rivals played; 3H, 3A)

8pts Wolverhampton Wanders (5 rivals played; 3H, 2A)

---

6pts Blackburn Rovers (4 rivals played; 1H, 3A)

6pts Bolton Wanderers (5 rivals played; 2H, 3A)

5pts Wigan Athletic (6 rivals played, 3H, 3A)

HEAD-TO-HEAD TABLE (points scored against rivals)

11pts Norwich City from 6 games (1.83pt AV)

9pts Everton from 4 games (2.25)

9pts Swansea from 6 games (1.5)

8pts WBA from 5 games (1.6)

8pts Fulham from 6 games (1.33)

7pts Wolverhampton Wanders from 5 games (1.4)

7pts QPR from 6 games (1.17)

6pts Bolton Wanderers from 5 games (1.20)

---

5pts Sunderland from 4 games (1.25)

5pts Wigan Athletic from 6 games (0.83)

3pts Blackburn Rovers from 4 games (0.75)

AVERAGES TABLE (Average point per game against rivals)

2.25 Everton from (9/4)

1.83 Norwich City from (11/6)

1.60 WBA (8/5)

1.50 Swansea (9/6)

1.40 Wolverhampton Wanders (7/5)

1.33 Fulham (8/6)

1.25 Sunderland (5/4)

1.20 Bolton Wanderers (6/5)

---

1.17 QPR (7/6)

0.83 Wigan Athletic (5/6)

0.75 Blackburn Rovers (3/4)

---

Blackburn and Wigan are still bottom in all tables, with QPR, Bolton and Sunderland alternating between each table. Sunderland however have scored the most points from the top teams out of the whole mini-league.

[CantonsHero 0]

No change from Sunday game, so the tables above are the end of Week 10 tables.

[Bill 1,788]

oh dear

this is beginning to resemble Clive Sinclair trundling around trying to promote the C5

this relegation sh!te was flawed pretty much after the Pompey away game, but has been kept alive by a ragbag of ''happy clappies, closet binners and the seriously demented

perhaps like that nutter who predicted the end of the world this sad little venture will be dragged out again at sum point in the future

[CantonsHero 0]

Please City1st. You know what this thread entails. Others have said they like it. Stop complaining about it; it takes one line on the messageboard and pops up twice a week. It wont hurt to just ignore it, and leave it to us who like and see the relevance of it.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="CantonsHero"]Please City1st. You know what this thread entails. Others have said they like it. Stop complaining about it; it takes one line on the messageboard and pops up twice a week. It wont hurt to just ignore it, and leave it to us who like and see the relevance of it.[/quote]

 

Leaving you to your little table ( pointless as it is ) is all well and good. However, when you mention "relevance" surely the conclusions that you and others throw forth from one week to the next with wild abandon is as open to constructive criticism as any other thread/post that deserves to be challenged. Let''s evaluate some of the little pearls of wisdom to date and determine how relevant they really are:

 

Wk 1 - You identify seven teams that you think will be in trouble at the end of the season. To date, bottom seven includes four clubs you did not identify. Yorkshire suggests adding Newcastle. You do.

 

Wk 3 - You decide to add Fulham to bring the total to nine ( your positive comment at the outset of the thread that the bottom three would come from one of YOUR seven seems to be slipping.....and that''s only after three weeks ). Before week three is even cold, lo and behold, you decide to add Everton bringing the total potential relegation candidates to ten. ( anyone wanting to go for twenty teams yet? I know where you can find an interesting table). Yorkshire, not wanting to be left in the dust by your growing list, decides that Sunderland should now be added, while hedging his bets on his earlier Newcastle prediction. To your credit ( I think ) you do not appear willing to accept Yorkshire''s Sunderland entry.

 

Wk 4 - Your latest revelation in wk 4 is that, after building up to ten teams you are POSITIVE that the three to go down will now come from only five teams, i.e. Norwich, Swansea, QPR, Wigan and Blackburn. Yorkshire, still looking for some concession on your part, agrees with your five if you could only add Sunderland. [:D]

 

Wk 5 - Ignoring how POSITIVE you are on the five teams that will yield the three relegation candidates, you see that your list of ten is only one short of a MAJORITY out of the total Premier participants and, to stop things getting out of hand, you arbitrarily decide that if Newcastle wins one more single game ( against Blackburn no less ) you will remove them from the list.

 

Wk 6 - Newcastle have indeed been removed but, surprise, surpise, ( because bigger must surely be better than smaller ) Bolton have been added to the list, despite the fact they were never one of your ORIGINAL seven or your POSITIVE five. After wk 6 Sunderland is finally added ( Yorkshire must now be happy ) and the relegation mini league is now made up of a majority of Premiership teams.

 

Wk 7 ( or 8, or 9 or 15 or 31 ) - Canton suggests Bolton are not really an early struggler as the table would suggest. It''s a good job Norwich is not in Bolton''s position or we would have many, many threads on here suggesting the Norwich Board should resign. I think I''ll watch the league table each week until Wk 38 and determine my FINAL three at that point. 

[CantonsHero 0]

Nice evaluation, I like it.

[Bill 1,788]

Blimey, I''m in total agreement with YC

Further, the idiocy that lies behind this deserves to be challenged. That being that we are relegation certainties and so fun can be had by tracking this doomed struggle.

On what basis has this ill founded theory been dreamt up, we have err...........

The club was promoted last season .......... and err, ummm we haven''t signed loads of Premier League proven players and err, that''s it

Others with an intellect into double figures might point out that Lambert has been able to motivate players that were stuffed 7-1 at home to climb the table, then been able to bring in a few others to walk away with the league

To continue in that vein in the following season and not only achieve automatic promotion but come close to snatching the title

taking this mentaility abd approach into the Premier Laegue the team has more than held it''s own. more so in away games at three of the top clubs in the league. So far we have not been outclassed nor looked out of our depth. If there is a weak part of the team it could be the defence, however with three defenders out we it might be ''excusable''. So all in all the team has started well with NOTHING that suggest they will not continue in that vein. In fact there is every believe that January will see further strengthening .

The club itself is in a positive and determined mood. It is not owned by some mad foreign money launderer nor riven by huge debts. It looks both healthy on and off the pitch.

We are miles away from what we were in 2004/5 yet we still have this constant sniping about the club definitely facing relegation - with Canton portraying himself as the priest sat in the condemned cell watching the shadow of the noose moving across the room as the moment of execution grows ever nearer

As YC has pointed out, the dimwits behind this nonsense cannot even agree who should even be in this competition.

[CantonsHero 0]

A few points.

1. Dimwit. Really? Resorting to name-calling is extremely low in a discussion. This is a discussion board, and not a slanging match or a telling off.

2. Something which does seem lost on people on this board, My thread and my post does not affect the team''s performance. If I''d have put a thread comparing us to the top 7, we would not automatically become 8th. It''s just a bit of statistical analysis.

3. I have been at or watched every game this year and scream and shout as cheer and join in. I am a fan, and are extremely positive. I now think that we''re going to be mid-table; I really do. However, I enjoy the analysis and will continue to do it.

4. You know what this thread is, please leave it alone. You don''t agree with it; we don''t need to read post after post of why it''s silly.

(And before you reply that I keep replying, just understand: all I want to put on this thread is an updated table twice a week;)