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Cantiaci Canary

Comparing 2011 to 2004

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A lot of posters have put down their starting eleven for Wigan.

How many players from your 2011 side do you consider to be better than the team which lined up against Palace when we started our last Premiership campaign? I highlighted mine in bold. The formation merely indicates the role (defensive mid etc).

2004

Green,

Helveg, Fleming, Charlton, Drury,

Holt

Jonson, Francis,

Bentley,

Huckerby, Svensson 

Subs: Ward, Edworthy, McVeigh, McKenzie & Jarvis

2011

Ruddy

RMartin, Barnett, De Laet, Tierney

Fox

Crofts, Bennet

Hoolahan

Morison, Holt

Subs: Rudd, Whitbread, Johnson, Surman & Jackson

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Flemming? Really? Top Championship defender but was getting old would have whitbread over him! For attitude I would have Bennet ahead of Francis and I think it remains to be seen is Morison is better than Svenson. Bassically what im saying is Im happy with this current squad and would only have Huckerby (who in his prime would be the best player in th current squad) and Green prior to his carrer going tits up!

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Regardless of whether you like David Bentley or what formation you''d play, you cant believe Fox, Crofts and Hoolahan are better than him!

 

The guys played at Premiership level since that season, and as racked up £10 Million+ in transfer fees. He as even played for England.

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The biggest difference for me is the managers. Nigel Worthinton was a good manager but to defensive. Paul Lambert for me is the best young manager about. We never won away in 2004/5 but Lambert is more positive in his approach and hopefully we will get more points away from home this time.

As for the players, I really not sure who will step up to the demands of top flight football. I doubt to many people will agree with me but think Chris Martin could shine this year. He is technically good enough and as Lambert says alot is the best finisher at the club but has the penny dropped yet with the lad?

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Bentley became a great player for a couple of seasons, but he wasn''t fantastic for us. Also I think Tottenham would probably like a refund on the £10m+ they paid for him.

I''d take Green and Huckerby from the 2004 team.

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[quote user="CDMullins"]

Regardless of whether you like David Bentley or what formation you''d play, you cant believe Fox, Crofts and Hoolahan are better than him!

 

The guys played at Premiership level since that season, and as racked up £10 Million+ in transfer fees. He as even played for England.

[/quote]

 

I would have Fox, Crofts & certainly Hoolahan over the raw Bentley we signed in 2004.

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[quote user="birchfest"]Flemming? Really? Top Championship defender but was getting old would have whitbread over him!

For attitude I would have Bennet ahead of Francis and I think it remains to be seen is Morison is better than Svenson.

Bassically what im saying is Im happy with this current squad and would only have Huckerby (who in his prime would be the best player in th current squad) and Green prior to his carrer going tits up!
[/quote]

 

I understand what you are saying about Fleming - perhaps I''m a little sentimental!

However I really rated Francis and think it''s harsh to question his attitude - he had a great season for us (until the very end!).

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[quote user="birchfest"]For attitude I would have Bennet ahead of Francis
[/quote]

 

Do we really know anything about Elliott Bennett''s attitude? Francis was a top player for us and would certainly improve the current squad by providing a goalscoring threat from the centre of midfield.

 

The most interesting thing about this game is trying to work out what Paul Lambert would do with Darren Huckerby [:^)]

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Different team, different system, different manager, different style, different all of those things in the other teams. Its all very different.

Before i go onto my next bit, why ignore Ashton? Ok he wasn''t here all season, but he did more than Svensson, McVeigh, Jarvis and same as McKenzie goal wise.

Based on ability/performance from before the premiere league (which is what we have to base the 2004 team on really, because the 2011 team hasn''t done the premiership yet) although probably looking at that season, and future success.

I would take Drury over Tierney in a heartbeat, even now, i''m not 100% sure Tierney will be good in the premiership, i think he''s not good enough defensively to cope with a higher quality. I think most of his impact was made with his attacking exploits, and some people i have seen claim there not very good either.

Green over Ruddy as well, at this moment. Ruddy has time to prove himself though.

Felming in the squad, based on his performances before the prem, as already mentioned he was getting on a bit really.

Holt was also getting on a bit in the premiership, and i really like Fox, so would keep Fox.

Bently wouldn''t work in our system, in a flat 4-4-2 i would have him on the wing, with Bennett as back up/ taking over when he starts getting arrogant and not putting in the effort.

I''m not sure on Francis vs Crofts really (Francis vs Bennett is redundant, there not the same position) I hope Crofts will do well, but i just have a feeling he might not make it.

Hoolahan i would have in any team. And Huckerby

Upfront, Holt and Ashton, or Holt and Vaughan.

But really this is all wrong, as formations are different, you can easily make two different systems, but would have to leave out key players in either. Would Hucks and Hoolahan fit in the same side? Hucks wasn''t really a striker was he?

Two teams:

Green

Martin, Fleming, Whitbread, Drury

Bentely, Franics, Crofts, Huckerby

Ashton, Holt

Ruddy

Helveg, Barnett, De Leat, Tierney

Fox

Crofts Francis

Hoolahan

Vaughan Morrison.

There is a bit of overlap, i was trying to avoid it.

Basically, it can''t be done fairly for a number of reasons.

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The big difference is that we have a host of strikers whereas in 2004 we had Gary Doherty. I''m slightly more optimistic this time .  

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I can''t believe your all comparing these sides. Completely different all around.

The 2011 side haven''t had a competitive game yet!

The 2004 side WOULD have stayed up with a Lambert and co figures!

So it goes to say with Lambert and co, in charge the 2011 side WILL stay up

up the city!!!!

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[quote user="Shack Attack"]

[quote user="birchfest"]For attitude I would have Bennet ahead of Francis[/quote]

 

Do we really know anything about Elliott Bennett''s attitude? Francis was a top player for us and would certainly improve the current squad by providing a goalscoring threat from the centre of midfield.

 

The most interesting thing about this game is trying to work out what Paul Lambert would do with Darren Huckerby [:^)]

[/quote]Francis was indeed a top player, but it doesnt matter if your not going to play till the 90th minute of the last games of the season. Its documented well about his attitude going into the Fulham game and in effect all of his hard work was undone by that. Ive been extremely impressed with Bennet in interviews so far; the whole understanding he isnt garantted to start so will get his head down and work as hard as he can. But whats more telling, and Damien Francis take note, when a bigger club came in for him in January and the move didnt come off Bennett rolled his sleves up and just cracked on at brighton as if nothing happened and helped secure them promotion!

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Captain Holt''s Derby Day Hat-Trick ''irrelevant, because instead of comparing de laet with charlton, why not compare him with fleming? this is always the flaw in an idea like this''.

 

It''s just a bit of fun!

Is it really that irrelevant to compare two different City generations? Fans always talk about their all time best eleven is it that different to debate what our best eleven would be from the 22 players that started 2004 and may start 2011?

Who would you pick as a top back 4 then CHDDH?

 

Gingerpele ''Before i go onto my next bit, why ignore Ashton?''.

I was comparing the starting  line ups of the two seasons  ... Ashton would certainly be in my best team otherwise!

 

Alartz ''I can''t believe your all comparing these sides. Completely different all around. The 2011 side haven''t had a competitive game yet!''

You can still compare them for fun! You know most of our squad very well and you can stick your neck out for the new signings!

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But you''re not comparing teams. You''re comparing individual players. There''s so many things to consider really, much more than just the individual players abilities. For instance if Huckerby made the team I reckon we''d need Gary Holt too. Holt was a big factor in Huckerby''s freedom to play.

 

 

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[quote user="birchfest"]Flemming? Really? Top Championship defender but was getting old would have whitbread over him! For attitude I would have Bennet ahead of Francis and I think it remains to be seen is Morison is better than Svenson. Bassically what im saying is Im happy with this current squad and would only have Huckerby (who in his prime would be the best player in th current squad) and Green prior to his carrer going tits up! [/quote]

Or Barnett. Flem was a good lad, but slow, lacking in height etc

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

But you''re not comparing teams. You''re comparing individual players. There''s so many things to consider really, much more than just the individual players abilities. For instance if Huckerby made the team I reckon we''d need Gary Holt too. Holt was a big factor in Huckerby''s freedom to play.

 

 

[/quote]

Fair enough it wasn''t meant to be too scientific!

Overall, how much stronger (if at all) do you think our current crop is? Is it only Lambert that makes the difference or do you think there is more quality than 7 years ago?

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I didn''t mean it to be scientific Canti. It''s a good thread and they''re rare at the moment. It''s hard to judge the new signings because we are yet to see them in action in a competetive game. When I compare the two sides that won promotion I think they were both very good teams. The 2004 probably had slightly better individual players but 2011 was probably a better unit. I think we were all lucky to enjoy both seasons.

 

It is really difficult to compare different eras. And it gets harder as you get older. I am an old fogey of 55 and come up with a different all time eleven every time I think about it. The only constant is that Keelan, Peters and Huckerby get in every time.

 

If you follow cricket I would say the current England team is the best in my lifetime. But strangely very few of the individuals would get im my all time eleven. If that makes sense!!

 

 

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I think it is more relevant to judge the squads rather than notional starting elevens, it being even more now a squad game than it was back in 2004-05. And it is hard to judge the current squad when so few have played in the Premier League. Indeed Bennett, for one, has never played above the third tier.

 

Having said that, for what little it is worth, I would for the moment compare the two squads as follows:

 

Goalkeeping - markedly stronger in 2004-05.

 

Fullbacks - a tough call but perhaps slightly stronger in 2004-05.

 

Central defence - stronger now.

 

Midfield - stronger in 2004-05.

 

Strikers - about level, but there are all sorts of variables here (having Ashton for only half a season, will Holt cut it in the PL, will Vaughan stay fit etc?).

 

A few weeks into the season and the above assessment might look rather embarrassing!

 

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Would agree on most positions/players with the exception of the two full backs.

Drury circa 2004 was in his prime and excellent that season, whilst Tierney has looked good for us and kept him out of the team last season he will find the going a lot tougher over the coming months.

Biggest mystery though is how anyone can rate Martin higher than Helveg. This is a comparison between a guy who has never played at higher than Championship level against an international player with over 100 caps who was a regular in Seria A, Bundeslegia and Premiership. Helveg suffered from being played out of position initially by Worthy but by the end of the season, back in his natural role, he was looking as good as anyone in the team.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I didn''t mean it to be scientific Canti. It''s a good thread and they''re rare at the moment. It''s hard to judge the new signings because we are yet to see them in action in a competetive game. When I compare the two sides that won promotion I think they were both very good teams. The 2004 probably had slightly better individual players but 2011 was probably a better unit. I think we were all lucky to enjoy both seasons.

 

It is really difficult to compare different eras. And it gets harder as you get older. I am an old fogey of 55 and come up with a different all time eleven every time I think about it. The only constant is that Keelan, Peters and Huckerby get in every time.

 

If you follow cricket I would say the current England team is the best in my lifetime. But strangely very few of the individuals would get im my all time eleven. If that makes sense!!

 

 

[/quote]

Yes it does!

Lets just hope that ...

1. Lambert sees the entire season out & isn''t poached like Coyle (this inexperienced squad in another manager''s hands could truly plummet).

2. Lambert''s ploy to throw in hungry and ambitious lower league stars pays off. 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I didn''t mean it to be scientific Canti. It''s a good thread and they''re rare at the moment. It''s hard to judge the new signings because we are yet to see them in action in a competetive game. When I compare the two sides that won promotion I think they were both very good teams. The 2004 probably had slightly better individual players but 2011 was probably a better unit. I think we were all lucky to enjoy both seasons.

 

It is really difficult to compare different eras. And it gets harder as you get older. I am an old fogey of 55 and come up with a different all time eleven every time I think about it. The only constant is that Keelan, Peters and Huckerby get in every time.

 

If you follow cricket I would say the current England team is the best in my lifetime. But strangely very few of the individuals would get im my all time eleven. If that makes sense!!

I totally understand your point Nutty and agree with you as i have the same experiences. 

 

 

[/quote]

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Helveg at his pomp was unquestionably superior but he was a shadow of that when he came to England in my opinion.

I would rather have a younger Russell Martin on hot form than a jaded Dane.

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It is difficult to compare the two sets of full backs as they are completely different types of players playing in markedly different systems. Drury/Edworthy were both steady full backs who didn''t get forward a great deal but defended well. This was partly because that was their style but also because of the system we played whereby the left side was left open due to the presence of Huckerby who didn''t really defend. Holt would often cover this space and help out Drury with Edworthy needing to come inside to cover and help out the central defenders. Martin/Tierney are both aggressive attacking full backs who stay very wide. Again part of this is probably down to their natural style but this is also needed to provide the width lacking in the midfield diamond.

 

Neither set of full backs would look particularly comfortable in the other team which makes it difficult to pick any of them in a team with a mix of both years.

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