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barclaybabe

letter to all U21s

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It seems to apply to most concessions ( sorry if already mentioned ). Our kids have under 12 tickets and we have to take their birth certificates in.

Quite right IMO although a pain having to take things in as club are looking to confirm over 12''s not claiming lower prices and also as I understand it a number of people buy an under 12 ticket to garuntee themselves a ticket for the games they want to go to ie Man U Chelsea ect by upgrading.

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This is very simple, anyone using a concessionary ticket to which they are not entitled is actually defrauding the Football Club of the approriate admission price.

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Just went to the ticket office to collect my U21 ST, only to be told that I should be paying Adult prices this season because the cut off point is Sept 1st and my 21st birthday is Aug 24th!

I wouldn''t have minded had the club told me this BEFORE I paid for the U21 ST online and BEFORE I had to trawl over to the ticket office only to be told you have to pay another £250 before we give you your ticket.

Has anyone else had a similar problem? I think it''s a bit of joke that the club asks me to go to the ticket office to prove my age...which I did and which confirmed the details they have...only to then tell me I have to pay £250 extra. I will still be 20 when the first home game comes around!

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[quote user="Largey"]Just went to the ticket office to collect my U21 ST, only to be told that I should be paying Adult prices this season because the cut off point is Sept 1st and my 21st birthday is Aug 24th! I wouldn''t have minded had the club told me this BEFORE I paid for the U21 ST online and BEFORE I had to trawl over to the ticket office only to be told you have to pay another £250 before we give you your ticket. Has anyone else had a similar problem? I think it''s a bit of joke that the club asks me to go to the ticket office to prove my age...which I did and which confirmed the details they have...only to then tell me I have to pay £250 extra. I will still be 20 when the first home game comes around![/quote]

Was the cut-off point 1st Sept last season ?

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Did you pay up? If they''ve previously sold you a season ticket in the wrong age bracket despite having your correct details on record, then it''s surely their problem. I think the cut off has always been something like 1 September, but really that should be irrelevant if they''ve messed up.I notice you paid online - someone said earlier on that this whole process might be to correct a known computer error. Looks like they were probably right.

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I didn''t pay the extra as I wasn''t too chuffed at the time. I accept that a computer error may have led to me only having to pay U21 rates online, but I paid months ago and I have not received any correspondence from the club even suggesting this mistake and requesting further payment!

I cannot see mention of the cut off point on the letters I have received either.

Had I left it late to go to the ticket office (I.e. Next 2 weeks) would I have been given a week to pay the extra before I was given my ticket for the first home game?! Which I''m still 20 for!

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I too paid online my birthday was in March this year, handed my I''d over he checked it, and they handed me my the ticket. I was half expecting to pay more to get my ticket. Somthing doesn''t add up. Also i checked all documentation when i brought my ticket looking for the cut off age i couldn''t find it. Then phoned the ticket office and asked "the online ticket service is saying im under 21 i think i''ll need an adult ticket as i''ll be 21 at the start of the season," and was told that the online service is correct as long as your Date of Birth is correct.

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Thanks smiley, something does sound fishy. How long ago did you go and collect your ticket?

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I''ve found this year''s "We Are Norwich" promo leaflet.[url=http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/SeasonTickets/0,,10355~2243245,00.html]http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/SeasonTickets/0,,10355~2243245,00.html[/url]Nothing in there about the U21 cut-off date, but it does mention 1 September for the over 65 concession. Regardless of that though, even if that is the cut-off date and you''re 21 before then, it''s clearly the club''s error, it''s not as though you''ve lied or tried to deceive them. To turn around and demand another £250 months after selling you the ticket when they''ve realised their error shows some cheek. I''d definitely take it further.

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It was on tuesday i think. If i was you i''d go to your online account and double check your DoB if thats correct then its surely the clubs fault for selling you the ticket at the wrong price. Its not you thats defrauding the club. I''m not 100% sure what the adult prices were but 170 + 250 = 420 seems a bit steep to me. Is that the price you''d pay if you brought one now?

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I gave them my driving licence and nothing was mentioned about my DoB other than my birthday is soon coming up. Thanks Northluck, I''ve checked too and agree nothing mentions a cut off date. I paid £177 in March just before the first deadline, and they are now requesting a further balance of £250.50. If I can find my initial letter from the club I''m sure it says my renewal price on it too, further evidence. You''re both right though, I haven''t fooled anyone, merely confirmed my DoB as requested! I will double check online too as you suggest smiley.

I will send an email first...if I can find a suitable email address for the club!

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Emails are better than phone calls atleast then you have an proof of whats you said and was told. I''ve been caught out recently by believing what was said to me on a phone call, but had no evidence that it was actually said. Just out of interest what are the adult prices?

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Don''t suppose you know the email address? I should be able to find it on the website though.

The adult price I was asked to pay in total is £427.50. I have so far paid £177.00 which was the U21 price. The adult price is the equivalent price for paying by the first deadline in March.

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Thats not too bad then, but i dont see why you should have to pay on their mistake. Did you get an proper adult ticket or one that still says under 21?

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I have to say I feel the club have made a bit of a PR gaff in all this.If those of you who turn 21 this year actually asked the club prior to renewing what you would be charged, I feel that that''s what you should pay. Like many things, a season ticker is bugeted for so if you suddenly get asked for more money, it''s a bit of a fiasco.Also, glad to hear your mature and reasoned arguments about when you should pay U21 prices and proving your ID. Some other posters should take a leaf out of your book instead of whinging about the increases and the need to prove their age.

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Smiley, I have got a ST yet and won''t be given one till I pay the extra £250!

Thanks WITS, it''s a bit comical and I''m sure it hasn''t affected many people at all, but that doesn''t mean what the club have done is correct and I will just have to wait and see what they say once ive emailed them.

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Looking at the "We are Norwich" information pack which announced the season tickets for the current season, I can see nothing in the terms and conditions small print (pages 14 & 15) relating to the fact that the relevant date for all concessions is the 1st September each year.

There is reference in the wording relating to the "Senior Citizen age changed from 60 to 65" (page 8) to the relevant date in this instance being the 1st September 2011, but there''s nothing for other concessionary groups elsewhere from what I can see.

Looking on the Club website, the ticketing section refers to concessionary information being as detailed within the Customer Charter. However, whilst there is reference therein to concessionary rates being available in certain parts of the ground for Supporters Under 12, Under 16 and Under 21, plus Over 60''s (to become Over 65''s) and Over 75''s, again there is no reference from what I can see to a relevant date to which these aply.

I''ve also just looked at the recent information relating to Casual Match Day prices. The pricing groups are for Adults, 65+, Under 16 and Under 12. However, again there is reference to a relevant date for concessions to be aplicable from. Is this is fixed date in the season or is this the date of the game.

All in all, unless I''ve overlooked something, there seems to be a lack of clarity on this and the Club, whilst I''m sure it''s all unintentional, really should address this to avaoid any future confusion and ill feeling.

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Casual tickets likely to be the day of the game or the day theyre purchased. 

 

I can see where the club is coming from although it may seem harsh - however there does seem to be one rule for one and one for another probably depending on who you get in the ticket office.  Having any cut off date into the football season does seem a bit daft - I suppose it keeps it in line with ''Academic Years'' but opens all sorts of arguments.  If the club had an August 1 deadline - and publicised it - then there would be any issue around when youre 21.  In the absence of that, the club should accept that theyve not done things 100% correctly and aim for next season instead

 

Also - playing devils advocate - are the club hoping that a few U-21s just give up the argument and either pay the extra or give up their seat for the club to re-sell to an adult?

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They can afford to do that Barclay Hero. I emailed the club last night with my gripes and they called me this morning. The best they could offer me was the March 5 deadline price for Adults, which is what I was told in the ticket office so no advances there. They dismissed smiley''s comments as message board wind-ups after I briefly mentioned the case.

I wouldn''t have an issue at all if it was well publicised when the cut off date is, and they had asked me for the full amount from the beginning, or even contacted me to rectify their mistake, but none of that occurred.

Had I refused to pay up they would easily be able to fill my seat with someone else so I had to pay as I want to see our team play this season!

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I can understand why the club have done all this, they must have worked out the cost of the exercise and any likely ''trade up'' payments from those who don''t meet their criteria. What I would question is the timing, my 2 letters arrived at the end of last week, right in the middle of the major school holiday period which doesn''t leave much time to get returns in if you are on your hols.

Season tickets are an absolute bargain for my kids, 10 and 14, so no complaints there but it does seem rather strange that I am having to pay a special delivery postage charge £5.25, to prove their dates of birth, when the club have been sending them birthday cards for the last few years.

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I havent read the whole thread

But my son is 16 and he hasnt had a letter and he hasnt received his season ticket, I got mine last week! His birthday is in March and I do know that the season he was 12 in, I had to buy an over 12s ticket from the start of that season even though he was only over 12 for the last month of it!!

I am going to the training day today so will take his birth certificate with me and see why he hasnt got his ticket

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I feel we are moving away from being a "family" club in to being an agressive business. Of course we have to try and balance the books but the club should remember that without a young following there will not be a following at all in years to come

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seems a bit heavy handed to me - all season tickets last year were different colours depending on the bracket you were in - my 2 kids renewed in March - U12 paid in full at the time , 17 year old on d/d ( payments started in March / April ) so they have had the details of my two for this season since March , plus last season and the season before - they werre members before then - they got birthday cards etc - I live in Norwich and it was hard enough getting to the ground for me , let alone someone who lives away - it annoyed me that we had to do this - If someone is conning the system it is easy enough to root them out without having the genuine ones fall under suspicion

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well i got on with it and went into the ticket office with my ID. and yeah i still fall under U21 so im all good until march next year. jammy bugger i am haha

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[quote user="Largey"]They can afford to do that Barclay Hero. I emailed the club last night with my gripes and they called me this morning. The best they could offer me was the March 5 deadline price for Adults, which is what I was told in the ticket office so no advances there. They dismissed smiley''s comments as message board wind-ups after I briefly mentioned the case. I wouldn''t have an issue at all if it was well publicised when the cut off date is, and they had asked me for the full amount from the beginning, or even contacted me to rectify their mistake, but none of that occurred. Had I refused to pay up they would easily be able to fill my seat with someone else so I had to pay as I want to see our team play this season![/quote]

 

Im hoping Purple reads this as I know he''s fairly aware of legal-stuff (im reasonably aware but would like another view).  Im going to talk legalese for a second but I''ll try and explain it whilst I go along

 

You may still have a case for appeal - basically this falls into the law of contract.  For there to be a legal contract there has to be an offer (of a season ticket for a required amount) acceptance (of that ticket and amount) and consideration (ie payment of something of value - in this case money).  Any party can make a counter offer at any point until the contract is finalised. Once the contract is completed no party can withdraw without the other sides agreement, or being able to prove that there was no ''consensus ad ideam'' which means meeting of minds - ie if you''d asked (and paid) for a season ticket and they sent you a membership instead.  If the contract is deemed to be completed based on consideration for an u-21 ticket then I cant see the club can reasonably rescind it, especially if there was no deadline mentioned.  I would reasonably expect the ''U21 date'' to be either the date you applied, or the date of the start of the season, or the date of the end of the season - if there is any ambiguity then the law says the party drawing up the agreement (ie the club in their leaflet) is at fault and will come down on the side of the other party.  Especially if the other party is an individual taking on a corporate entity.  This rule is called ''Contra Proferentum'' (from memory)

Fundementally if the club have accepted your application as valid, and consideration is paid then they should accept it regardless of any deadlines applied retrospectively

The only potential banana skin would be whether the price indicated was not contractual but an ''invitation to treat''.  In such cases neither side actually have to stick to the price.  This is the situation in a shop where an advertised price could - in theory at least - be negotiated down.  Likewise the shop DONT have to stick to the price advertised (although this is getting into trading standards, false advertising and the like).  I mention this only because there is a slight chance the club may use this as an excuse but I dont think it actually applies here - a season ticket is effectively a contract for the club to supply a seat to watch specified matches (in this case all home league games)

Personally - Id go back to the club and indicate you are looking to take this further - unless the club can produce evidence that youve applied for the wrong category knowing it was wrong (ie fraud) Im not sure they can really get out of it.  However be prepared to follow it through if you do this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I would write it, and hand it in person, also requesting to speak to their supervisor about this matter. In both your letter and you discussion state the law as discribed below. Then the balls in their court to comply. If they don''t then mention that you will be taking this matter further. I''m sure your not the only person to get caught out. But in the terms and conditions does it state, that the club reserves the right to withdraw your ticket at anytime with out warning. If it does this may be there get out claus, and may enable them to sell your ticket to some one else. So its up to you pay £250 or risk loosing your ticket. [quote user="Barclay hero"]

[quote user="Largey"]They can afford to do that Barclay Hero. I emailed the club last night with my gripes and they called me this morning. The best they could offer me was the March 5 deadline price for Adults, which is what I was told in the ticket office so no advances there. They dismissed smiley''s comments as message board wind-ups after I briefly mentioned the case. I wouldn''t have an issue at all if it was well publicised when the cut off date is, and they had asked me for the full amount from the beginning, or even contacted me to rectify their mistake, but none of that occurred. Had I refused to pay up they would easily be able to fill my seat with someone else so I had to pay as I want to see our team play this season![/quote]

 

Im hoping Purple reads this as I know he''s fairly aware of legal-stuff (im reasonably aware but would like another view).  Im going to talk legalese for a second but I''ll try and explain it whilst I go along

 

You may still have a case for appeal - basically this falls into the law of contract.  For there to be a legal contract there has to be an offer (of a season ticket for a required amount) acceptance (of that ticket and amount) and consideration (ie payment of something of value - in this case money).  Any party can make a counter offer at any point until the contract is finalised. Once the contract is completed no party can withdraw without the other sides agreement, or being able to prove that there was no ''consensus ad ideam'' which means meeting of minds - ie if you''d asked (and paid) for a season ticket and they sent you a membership instead.  If the contract is deemed to be completed based on consideration for an u-21 ticket then I cant see the club can reasonably rescind it, especially if there was no deadline mentioned.  I would reasonably expect the ''U21 date'' to be either the date you applied, or the date of the start of the season, or the date of the end of the season - if there is any ambiguity then the law says the party drawing up the agreement (ie the club in their leaflet) is at fault and will come down on the side of the other party.  Especially if the other party is an individual taking on a corporate entity.  This rule is called ''Contra Proferentum'' (from memory)

Fundementally if the club have accepted your application as valid, and consideration is paid then they should accept it regardless of any deadlines applied retrospectively

The only potential banana skin would be whether the price indicated was not contractual but an ''invitation to treat''.  In such cases neither side actually have to stick to the price.  This is the situation in a shop where an advertised price could - in theory at least - be negotiated down.  Likewise the shop DONT have to stick to the price advertised (although this is getting into trading standards, false advertising and the like).  I mention this only because there is a slight chance the club may use this as an excuse but I dont think it actually applies here - a season ticket is effectively a contract for the club to supply a seat to watch specified matches (in this case all home league games)

Personally - Id go back to the club and indicate you are looking to take this further - unless the club can produce evidence that youve applied for the wrong category knowing it was wrong (ie fraud) Im not sure they can really get out of it.  However be prepared to follow it through if you do this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

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I have paid the extra as I simply do not want to miss out on next season. I''ll have to check through the T and C''s carefully, I''m sure a part of it says ''NCFC reserve the right to amend ticket prices'' or to that effect but it''s worth me checking.

Thank you for highlighting the contract law and the legalities, I understand it somewhat as I''ve been studying that for an insurance exam!

I''ll assess the situation over the next couple of days and go from there. I certainly haven''t mislead the club!

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Any Under 21''s joining our City Fans Fantasy League?I''m sure that you''ll like it... it''s all FREE TODAY!!! [;)]

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[quote user="Barclay hero"]

[quote user="Largey"]They can afford to do that Barclay Hero. I emailed the club last night with my gripes and they called me this morning. The best they could offer me was the March 5 deadline price for Adults, which is what I was told in the ticket office so no advances there. They dismissed smiley''s comments as message board wind-ups after I briefly mentioned the case. I wouldn''t have an issue at all if it was well publicised when the cut off date is, and they had asked me for the full amount from the beginning, or even contacted me to rectify their mistake, but none of that occurred. Had I refused to pay up they would easily be able to fill my seat with someone else so I had to pay as I want to see our team play this season![/quote]

 

Im hoping Purple reads this as I know he''s fairly aware of legal-stuff (im reasonably aware but would like another view).  Im going to talk legalese for a second but I''ll try and explain it whilst I go along

 

You may still have a case for appeal - basically this falls into the law of contract.  For there to be a legal contract there has to be an offer (of a season ticket for a required amount) acceptance (of that ticket and amount) and consideration (ie payment of something of value - in this case money).  Any party can make a counter offer at any point until the contract is finalised. Once the contract is completed no party can withdraw without the other sides agreement, or being able to prove that there was no ''consensus ad ideam'' which means meeting of minds - ie if you''d asked (and paid) for a season ticket and they sent you a membership instead.  If the contract is deemed to be completed based on consideration for an u-21 ticket then I cant see the club can reasonably rescind it, especially if there was no deadline mentioned.  I would reasonably expect the ''U21 date'' to be either the date you applied, or the date of the start of the season, or the date of the end of the season - if there is any ambiguity then the law says the party drawing up the agreement (ie the club in their leaflet) is at fault and will come down on the side of the other party.  Especially if the other party is an individual taking on a corporate entity.  This rule is called ''Contra Proferentum'' (from memory)

Fundementally if the club have accepted your application as valid, and consideration is paid then they should accept it regardless of any deadlines applied retrospectively

The only potential banana skin would be whether the price indicated was not contractual but an ''invitation to treat''.  In such cases neither side actually have to stick to the price.  This is the situation in a shop where an advertised price could - in theory at least - be negotiated down.  Likewise the shop DONT have to stick to the price advertised (although this is getting into trading standards, false advertising and the like).  I mention this only because there is a slight chance the club may use this as an excuse but I dont think it actually applies here - a season ticket is effectively a contract for the club to supply a seat to watch specified matches (in this case all home league games)

Personally - Id go back to the club and indicate you are looking to take this further - unless the club can produce evidence that youve applied for the wrong category knowing it was wrong (ie fraud) Im not sure they can really get out of it.  However be prepared to follow it through if you do this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

---

 

Barclay Hero, this is not my area of expertise at all but I will try to help. If I have understood, Largey turns 21 on August 24. The club now says the cut-off date is after that, on September 1. Therefore he counts as an adult.

 

The first, and obvious point, is that if the club sent Largey a renewal letter stating what it would cost to renew, and the club mistakenly quoted the pre-adult price, even though it had Largey''s date of birth to hand, and Largey paid that sum over, then I cannot see that the club  now has a leg to stand on. It has to pay for its own mistake. It is like a shop missing a nought off a price tag. It is the shop''s fault but it has to accept the low price. That is what it is advertising the item at.

 

In short, if the above is all true, the cut-off date is irrelevant. Largey could be 35 or 55. It wouldn''t matter. The club told him to pay a pre-adult price, and that is what he did.

 

So if Largey can find the renewal letter, or get the club to provide him with a copy (which it must do if asked) that would be helpful. If the club didn''t specify the amount he needed to pay then things perhaps murkier.  But ultimately the onus must be on the club to make certain it is charging people the right amount, given that there is after all no suggestion here that Largey was trying to con the club by lying about his age. And people''s details are all there at the club for staff to study before they send out the letters. I know this because it was the club some years ago that pointed out to me that I was now eligible for the OAP concession. It hadn''t occured to me, because I wasn''t yet 60, but was paying so many years ahead that I would be by the time the year I was paying for came around.

 

As to September 1 being the cut-off, as other people have pointed out, although this is mentioned in respect to OAPs, because of the change from 60 to 65, there seems no mention at all for the other concessions. However since there is this mention, I suspect the club is on firm ground IN GENERAL in sticking to that. However in this case, where it is basing its demand for extra money on this date, it can''t actually point to any mention of this date. Commonsense would assume the cut-off point was one of the payment renewal dates, or possibly the start of the season. There is no obvious logic behind September 1, and certainly no reason why Largey or anyone else would assume it was after the start of the season. One is paying for something that starts in August. Any cut-off would naturally fall no later then then.

 

Certainly it would be wise for the club from now on to spell out in big letters the cut-off date, for all concessions and categories.

 

I might have some further, more general thoughts, on this but they can wait until the situation becomes clearer.

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