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LeJuge

So... how big does Carrow Road need to be?

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I know this topic has been discussed a lot, after those awful CAD drawings the other day, but just how big do you think Carrow Road needs to be? Personally I don''t think we need any more than 35000, that seems like a decent figure. I don''t think we would fill it all the time in The Championship, I suspect we could average 27000-28000 on a mediocre Championship season, maybe 30000-31000 in a promotion season with sell outs towards the end of a campaign.There would of course be a few Prem games that we could manage 35000, the big four to six basically, but even with that in the Prem we would probably see empty seats for games such as Blackburn and Stoke?I can''t see the harm in a bit of demand for big games, I just think that 40000 is too big, would we fill it enough to be worthwhile? I hate seeing big patches of empty seats in the corners of stands, it really dulls the atmosphere, and would remind me of Elland Road or Portman Road. For me I think we need a minimum 32000, up to 35000. I still think we are a long way off, probably a decade or so, away from ever needing 40000. Even if things go well?In fact 32000 might even be the better option. That''s 5000 new seats, that would clear the waiting lists for season tickets, allow a couple of thousand more casuals in, and allow us to extend the away allowance by 1000? Little danger of empty seats, no effect on Atmosphere, but at an average of say £22 per seat (including kids and oap''s), potentially up to £110k per game in additional revenue (plus beer and food spend).I''m not telling by the way, I''m interested to hear opinions, so.... how many?

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I''m of the opinion that the ideal number would be somewhere between 32,000-34,000 capacity. That would really set us up nicely to compete and fulfil our potential as a top-flight club, certainly for the forseeable few years at least.

By my reckoning, that would be accomplished by just adding the extra tier on top of the city stand, and hopefully getting rid of the ghastly holiday inn and building a corner infill, mirroring the infill between the Jarrold and N&P stand. Between them, that should add an extra 5-6k seats.The ground would look superb, and the atmosphere inside would be fantastic.

I''ve been working on some sketches of what the ground could look like, I''ll try to post them up once they''re finished.

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Probably at least 130 yards by 100 yards so that there is enough room for goalkeepers to have a bit of space to take a run up for a goal kick, and the goal nets are not within touching distance of the fans.

Also a bit of space on the sides for players to warm up on the sidelines - and somewhere to lay down when they come off the pitch, injured.

There should also be space for people like the bloke who used to wander round selling ''sweee-eeets''.

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Rebuild the City Stand and/or put an extra tier on the South Stand to bump the capacity to about 34k. This would be an ideal number for the medium term for us as long as we stay in the Premier League. I''d also like to see us reduce ticket prices if we were to establish ourselves in the Premier League, this would enable us to allow the next generation of fans to see their local club at an affordable price, after all ticket sales make up a fraction of the income when compared with TV money. And for those who want the hotel demolished, that isn''t gonna happen any time soon, for that to happen we need to have the two extra tiers put on the South Stand and City stand and then be consistently selling out to justify demolishing an 7-day-a-week income stream.

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[quote user="Francesco Volpe"]I''m of the opinion that the ideal number would be somewhere between 32,000-34,000 capacity. That would really set us up nicely to compete and fulfil our potential as a top-flight club, certainly for the forseeable few years at least. By my reckoning, that would be accomplished by just adding the extra tier on top of the city stand, and hopefully getting rid of the ghastly holiday inn and building a corner infill, mirroring the infill between the Jarrold and N&P stand. Between them, that should add an extra 5-6k seats.The ground would look superb, and the atmosphere inside would be fantastic. I''ve been working on some sketches of what the ground could look like, I''ll try to post them up once they''re finished.[/quote]

 

I don''t think that they can get rid of the hotel as easily as that as it''s all tied up in deals and contracts for years to come.

 

An extra tier to the top of the City Stand would be a good first step and push the capacity well into the thirties. In time, this might become cost-possible. It would be cost-effective now.

 

I struggle to think of any more changes that could be made without vast and expensive re-building of the existing set-up. Something could, I suppose be done with the hotel corner, although I have never been close up enough to that area to know exactly what. Can a  few rows of seats be put in front of the hotel? I suppose that there is some rule regarding the distancing of away supporters preventing this.

 

All-in-all, Carrow Road seems pretty complete, except for that City Stand. Unless others know better. 

 

Now if safe standing were to be introduced, then we have a different scenario. They talk about it occasionally in high places, but do nothing. Rogan Taylor advocates it , I believe.

 

A cautionary note. Although it seems highly unlikely now, football attendances are subject to downward trends at times. I remember when we were in the old First Division and doing quite well under Ken Brown, I believe, we had abysmal gates. They were often in the low teens and we became a bit of a laughing stock at the time.

This doesn''t look like happening again, but a ground of much over 35, 000 capacity could well turn out to be a white elephant one day in the distant future should, G-forbid, our fortunes, or those of the Game as a whole, decline. Financially, people are being squeezed ''til the pips squeak at the moment and it will get worse..The High Street is suffering and , although we are booming, it will be interesting to see if attendances are down elsewhere. 

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I think the city stand only holds about 2000 odd so that is the weak link. Rip that down and build a stand capable of holding 8000 and we should be there or thereabouts. There is a fine line between having a stadium that is the right size and full, and having one that is too big and half empty.

How many times did you watch Middlesborough/Sunderland/Sheffield Wednesday last season and think that the ground looked depressing.

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[quote user="Carlos Valderrama"]I think the city stand only holds about 2000 odd so that is the weak link. Rip that down and build a stand capable of holding 8000 and we should be there or thereabouts. There is a fine line between having a stadium that is the right size and full, and having one that is too big and half empty.

How many times did you watch Middlesborough/Sunderland/Sheffield Wednesday last season and think that the ground looked depressing.[/quote]Seeing 18000 people in Elland Road in the League One season, before having Leeds fans on here saying "bet you were impressed by the noise?" is probably the saddest thing I have ever seen! It gets worse than those examples though.... Imagine being one of 1800 Darlington fans watching Conference football in a 25000 seater! To put that in perspective, imagine a good away turnout at Carrow Road last year, and then imagine nobody sitting in the home seats!

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35,000

I hate the hotel, but why make stupid suggestions that the hotel will be demolished? It won''t happen, until Norwich leave the city centre. Is that likely to happen...probably not!

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As pointed out in another thread recently, our highest ever league gate was just under 38,000, in the days when the ground held 44,000. The highest ever season average was around 28,000 in 1972-3 and that dropped down in subsequent seasons when the novelty of being in the First Division wore off.All the crowds of more than 38,000 have been for Cup matches, and nowadays the Cup competitions are far less popular than they used to be.On that basis I suggest that 35,000 would be adequate for any current or future needs. Anyway, as many others have suggested, as far as the atmosphere is concerned, it is better to fill a smaller ground every week, rather than be echoing around a huge, half-empty stadium.

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My feeling is that the corner gap and the hotel gives the impression of a piecemeal development. The really impressive grounds have continuous roofing, with no support stanchions. Perhaps a deal could be done with the hotel to have corridor connection with the ground or catering, to overcome loss of view in some rooms.

It may be that filling in the corner would cost more per seat than putting an extra level on the City stand, and certainly wouldn''t add enough extra seats .

All in all while it would be expesnive, I favour an extra level in the City stand. It always looks a little bit out of scale with the rest of the ground, as if it is a relic from days when 10,000 were our gate numbers. To me it cries out for enlarging, and would provide more extra seats than virtually anywhere else. The stand is shallow and narrow, so to keep within the building line any new roof would have to be raised considerably and also expensively.

We are talking real money, when we may need to acquire more expensive players to consolidate our position in the Premiership, but a capacity of 27,000 is really too small.

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35,000 would be a realistic figure to try and get to in current times in order to fulfill the clubs potential, give the club a better chance of getting bigger and re establishing in the top flight, but only when finances allow!

 

This could be achieved by building a newer bigger more adequate City stand and continuing the Jarold stand round in front of the Hotel which I believe is possible?

 

If we then fully established ourselves in the Premiership and regularly averaged 33,000+ over a number of sessons then it would be possible to further raise capacity by either putting another tier on the Jarold or building a bigger Kop style Barclay end. I also believe it would be possible to build a bigger River end holding as much as 8000, the current RE holds about 6200. 

30,000+ has to be the minimum target for the club!

 

 

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Well the noise being made from the club it is evident that the main point for development will be the city stand, with it more than likely being a complete knock down and rebuild job being done. Yes a second tier could be added but that would limit the capacity dude to the small size of the current stands footprint, furthermore the facilites withing the city stand have become outdated so this would provide an oppitunity for new dressing rooms, media centre etc. If the conrners are also redone to mirror the Jarrold on top of the capacity increase it could add anywhere between 4 and 6,000 additional seats, pushing our capacity to between 31- 33,000 seats. I think that if we stay up this season then next season will see the club having the plans drawn up with work comencing the following summer if top flight status has been retained for a 3rd season. Alternatives after that, well say in the next 5-10 years Norwich have become a premire league regular and pushing for a europe place then we have the options of building the Jarrold stand, though what is interesting to note is the amount of land behind the barclay stand, possibly the most out of any of the stands if you look at google maps. It would be possible to build a larger Kop style barclay twice the capacity of the current barclay!

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What about building an entirely new stadium? 35G - 40G capacity that can be adjusted for different events and team situations to avoid empty stretches of seats in tough times.

All this adding here there and the other place seems like a never ending, really expensive and tighter ''n tighter fitting scenario.

A fancy modern facility might be something that attracts consideration for potential signings, too.

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[quote user="City1st"]Probably at least 130 yards by 100 yards so that there is enough room for goalkeepers to have a bit of space to take a run up for a goal kick, and the goal nets are not within touching distance of the fans.

Also a bit of space on the sides for players to warm up on the sidelines - and somewhere to lay down when they come off the pitch, injured.

There should also be space for people like the bloke who used to wander round selling ''sweee-eeets''.[/quote]Nice!

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I think i a am correct in saying that the Spurs game is the closest to Carrow Road at about 125 miles. That is unlikely to change much and whilst Norwich is somewhat isolated in terms of speedy access it is for many people the closest they can get to see a Premier game. Norwich and Norfolk is increasing in population and these factors may be taken into account when discussing the size of expansion.

One way of getting over the empty stadium look would be to have safe standing areas at a lower price. It pays to remember that our big crowds of the past were for predominantly standing fans.

H

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[quote user="haisbrohacker"]I think i a am correct in saying that the Spurs game is the closest to Carrow Road at about 125 miles. That is unlikely to change much and whilst Norwich is somewhat isolated in terms of speedy access it is for many people the closest they can get to see a Premier game. Norwich and Norfolk is increasing in population and these factors may be taken into account when discussing the size of expansion.

One way of getting over the empty stadium look would be to have safe standing areas at a lower price. It pays to remember that our big crowds of the past were for predominantly standing fans.

H[/quote]I think the only part of the ground that I would have as standing is the lower Barclay, get another 1000 in there and the place would be rocking! I would extend that to the snakepit, if they weren''t prone to jumping out of the stand, shame that a few idiots with a much lower than average IQ would ruin that for the rest of them though. But yeah, would be fantastic to see an all-standing lower barclay. Would need to make sure that anybody who isn''t happy or able to stand can get a season ticket elsewhere though. I''d keep the extra 1000 as casuals though, think I''m right in saying that the lower barclay is all season ticket? That kinda misses the point in cheaper seating, would be great to have more casual tickets, plus not many away fans would dare to obtain a ticket in an all standing Barclay Lower! lol.

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It would be nice to see the club retaining ‘Family Values’ and encourage the next generations of supporters to attend matches on a regular basis (as in first team season ticket sales – not ad-hoc reserve games).

 

We can all bounce proposed ideal capacity figures based on past and current marketing activity, but it’s what the club does in the future that counts.

 

Keep prices medium-high and we’ll do well to require 35,000. Offer great value tickets for the whole family with facilities to match and 38-40,000 may be realistic. I know attendees from our household would double from 2 to 4 in an instant if we could get 4 seats at decent prices. Mrs Mustard and 5 year old Dijon could come along then couldn’t they?

 

By the way, Mrs Mustard’s biggest objection to attending matches is the poor ladies toilets. The queues are ridiculous. That really is something that needs to be improved if the club want to attract women to the stadium. Either that or offer a substantial discount off the ticket price in a reciprocal deal sponsored by Tena Lady!

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[quote user="Norfolk Mustard"]

It would be nice to see the club retaining ‘Family Values’ and encourage the next generations of supporters to attend matches on a regular basis (as in first team season ticket sales – not ad-hoc reserve games).

 

We can all bounce proposed ideal capacity figures based on past and current marketing activity, but it’s what the club does in the future that counts.

 

Keep prices medium-high and we’ll do well to require 35,000. Offer great value tickets for the whole family with facilities to match and 38-40,000 may be realistic. I know attendees from our household would double from 2 to 4 in an instant if we could get 4 seats at decent prices. Mrs Mustard and 5 year old Dijon could come along then couldn’t they?

 

By the way, Mrs Mustard’s biggest objection to attending matches is the poor ladies toilets. The queues are ridiculous. That really is something that needs to be improved if the club want to attract women to the stadium. Either that or offer a substantial discount off the ticket price in a reciprocal deal sponsored by Tena Lady!

[/quote]Mr''s Mustard should go to the toilet at 1 minute to 3, that''s what Le Juge does, it never fails. Sometimes it means not getting to the seat until 2 minutes past 3, but it extends the chances of getting a Boddingtons and a cornish pasty at half time somewhat.

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I''m all for safe standing areas but all the proposals I have seen allocate every person with numbered personal crash barriers taking up the same space as a seat which means it wouldn''t increase capacity, would love to see Lower Barclay, snakepit and Lower River End standing, IMO it would be a good way to generate more noise in the ground and make it more intimidating to visiting teams

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[quote user="Chelmsford Canary"]35,000 I hate the hotel, but why make stupid suggestions that the hotel will be demolished? It won''t happen, until Norwich leave the city centre. Is that likely to happen...probably not![/quote]Totally agree, would''ve been better had the corner been filled with seats!

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[quote user="ROBFLECK"][quote user="Chelmsford Canary"]35,000 I hate the hotel, but why make stupid suggestions that the hotel will be demolished? It won''t happen, until Norwich leave the city centre. Is that likely to happen...probably not![/quote]Totally agree, would''ve been better had the corner been filled with seats![/quote]

How many times did we have this conversation about the (Doomcaster) Hotel idea will bring more money to the club that an infill, Don''t know what the Snakepit holds but we could have probably built a twin tier and lets say 2000 seats, with the price of tickets I''m sure we don''t get that sort of revenue from Holiday inn, I said it then and I''ll say it now, someone was on a backhander there.    

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[quote user="pete_norw"]

[quote user="ROBFLECK"][quote user="Chelmsford Canary"]35,000 I hate the hotel, but why make stupid suggestions that the hotel will be demolished? It won''t happen, until Norwich leave the city centre. Is that likely to happen...probably not![/quote]Totally agree, would''ve been better had the corner been filled with seats![/quote]

How many times did we have this conversation about the (Doomcaster) Hotel idea will bring more money to the club that an infill, Don''t know what the Snakepit holds but we could have probably built a twin tier and lets say 2000 seats, with the price of tickets I''m sure we don''t get that sort of revenue from Holiday inn, I said it then and I''ll say it now, someone was on a backhander there.    

[/quote]I believe the arrangement was an initial fee, £200k I seem to recall, plus 10% of profit. I would be interesting to hear what McNally has to say, I don''t own any shares, but possibly a great question for an AGM meeting from somebody who does have some?I do recall somebody saying once that corner infills are less profitable per seat than an entire new stand would be, because its a lot of work for not many seats.Personally I don''t object to the basic principle of a hotel, but it looks hideous. Would rather the design was approved by somebody with taste, it could have matched the colour of the barclay and Jarrold, could have been fixed to the barclay and jarrold and been closer to the pitch, and could have had a big screen put in place to actually offer something extra to the fans (and it would have been viewable to home fans not away fans in that corner, which would have been funny).

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"Hotel idea will bring more money to the club that an infill"

nonsense

The argument at the time was that the club did not have the money, nor could raise the money to build a stand or seating in that corner.

Selling the land raised much needed money. Needs must, as they say.

I doubt anyone wants the hotel there, nor at the time of building would have known that we would be in the Premier League, more so after being relegated in 2009.

as to your stupid remark

"someone was on a backhander there" that is the comments of a cretin who clearly has no knowledge of how a board of directors work, nor the responsibility or integrity to back that libel in evidence.

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A capacity somewhere in the mid 30,000 range will be adequate. As somebody else mentioned, we might not need that number of seats if ticket prices increase substantially in the Premiership. Will the top casual ticket prices be as much as £40 at Carrow Road this season?

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40,000 would be a good start. Worrying we might not fill it evokes the little old Norwich syndrome imo [*-)]

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I hope that the board will take into account just what made the supporters come week in week out over the last 7 years. It was due to the great family value for money promotions and allowing school kids to come to the games at cheaper prices. I''d love the stadium to be expanded to something like 40,000 or even more to allow this to continue to happen. With 22,000 season ticket holders, add 2,000 on the waiting list, as well as around 3,000 away fans. That''s 27,000 fans who are already guarenteed to be there, not even counting casual matchday tickets. That gives you 13,000 for additional season tickets and family deals. I''d drop the prices lower to allow a new generation of die hard fans to watch Premier League football. We could, in theory, have a big fan base in terms of Premier League attendances.

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You are absolutely right Larry David. Previous responses smack of an inward, parochial mindset that screams "little old Norwich couldnt do that". Exactly the words that Neil Doncaster might have used. But big bold confident Norwich should think bigger so thank god we have McNally who has already done so much to cast aside the timidity and fear that seems to reside in the heart of the good folk of Norwich. If we''re going to invest vast capital sums in stadium redevelopment then it''s much better to ensure that medium to long term potential fanbase growth is covered. The area is growing, the fanbase is expanding and the core support is already there in large numbers. West Ham are moving from a 36,000 capacity stadium to a 60,000 one (having just been relegated). In my opinion we are every bit as big as them, if not bigger. 42,000 with new stands that allow for further expansion should be a non-negotiable, minimum.

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I genuinely believe Norwich will enjoy a sustained 18,000 season ticket holders for the forseeable seasons (say the next 5)

The arguement then to nearly double, if capacity goes to 35k, or more does rely on new or irregular (through work or geography etc) fans attendance

If the courts decide to up hold the decision to allow Public Houses to buy & show universal satellite packages which are much cheaper than the Sky option you may find the current clamour to see NCFC at home fall

The ever growing number of signs outside pubs stating "watch all home/away games here" indicates options to watch a the big screen will be a plenty, with most peoples disposable income tight it''s not hard to make the arguement that occassionally an afternoon in the pub & 2 pints (£6 spend) will take precedent over match day ticket (£30)

Sky win the appeal and widespread match day coverage from pubs disappears (albiet still available to stream over interweb) then demand for tickets goes up

Lets be honest though a Monday night match in February verses Bolton ain''t going to sell +30k

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"I''d drop the prices lower to allow a new generation of die hard fans to watch Premier League football"

so die hard that the price is the deciding factor

Much of the idiocy that underpins many of the comments is that prices should be moved (dropped) to increase demand but should not be moved (raised) to reduce demand. That is ridiculous as comparative behaviour in concerts, trains, holidays, pubs, restuarants, hotels all demonstrate.

The idea that you could commit to raising way in excess of £10m (£15m?)on the basis of 3000 guaranteed away fans is farcical. As is the presumption that repayments could be met from a known dwindling revenue stream (lower prices) and an unknown revenue stream (what league we will be in). there are other variables such as a possible implosion of football finance, further downturn in the economy and the point raised above about games being shown in pubs.

When the club, at a flick of a switch, can raise prices as needed to maximise revenue it is absurd to think that they will at this stage embark on some lunatic scheme to build another stand - unless current season ticket holders would be preapaed to see their tickets increased substantially SOLELY on the basis of subsidising the "new generation of die hard fans".

That increase to be on top of any increase relating to a realistic Premier League price and adjustments made to dampen down demand.

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