Defence worries

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Wallerboi"][quote user="Smudger"][quote user="GJP"]

Jeez...not more of the "Elliott Ward won''t be good enough" rubbish.

 

It is baffling how anyone can say with any real conviction that he''ll be worse than Whitbread or Barnett.

 

Whitbread and Barnett have both made obvious and costly mistakes yet for some reason people seem to turn a blind eye to it but they''re more than happy to try to find some way to cast a shadow over Ward.

 

All three are very good players and all three have had brilliant seasons for us, there is no weak(er) link amongst them and any suggestion that any of those three are a weak link would have very little substance to it.

[/quote]Spot on GJP... [Y]What is really hilarious, is that the OP says that we need somebody who is going to organise the defence (which Wrad currently does), but from our current players he would leave Ward on the bench and partner Barnett with Whitbread.You really couldn''t make it up could you???I am sure the majority of fans are just utterly clueless or watch our games with their eyes closed.  Because without doubt, Ward has been the organiser and leader of our defence for the majority of the last season.  Without him our defence as a unit would be totally lost and all at sea.The majority view will be upheld though, just as it was from the majority with their Simeon Jackson will never make the grade and now apparently Chris Martin (who was much better than Jackson 6 months ago) is useless and we should sell him for £500k... dear oh dear! [:$][/quote]

Ok read it again and tell me where i said we need an organizer?????????

 

People like you are the real idiots coming on here trying to look clever slagging other peoples posts off when you clearly cant read properly. I said a STRONG center back. Ward IMO is weak and easily knocked off the ball at times and this is why i think he will struggle.

[/quote]Sorry Wallerboi, it was actually "Boyo" who followed your OP who brought organisation in to the thread.I disagree that Ward is weak too however and would say along with Tierney he is actually the hardest tackler in our back four, followed by Barnett who just uses his physical strength.My point remains though, what there can surely be no doubt over is that Ward has been the organiser and leader of our back four over the last season.  The defence works as a unit.  So if you take Ward out of the equation becasue you are murdering him for the odd error that all our defenders have made this season then the whole defence will be lost at sea.It is also crucial that the fans who are slagging Ward off start to recognise that at an even higher level the importance of his skills with the ball at his feet will be required all the more.  He is undoubtedly one of the best defenders if not the best that we have with the ball at his feet and coming out of defence.  Without him I think we would try to play far too much long ball football and if we present Premiership opposition with easy ball then we will all too frequently get punished for it!

[Bing Bang 0]

Apology accepted lol

Thats a fair point you make, im not saying your right or wrong really, time will tell if any of the current back four are good enough. I may be being a little harsh on tierney so i''ll lay off him and hope he continues to improve.

Anyway Lambert will have the defence sorted come August so all this will be irrelevant anyway.

[Boyo 0]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="GJP"]

Jeez...not more of the "Elliott Ward won''t be good enough" rubbish.

 

It is baffling how anyone can say with any real conviction that he''ll be worse than Whitbread or Barnett.

 

Whitbread and Barnett have both made obvious and costly mistakes yet for some reason people seem to turn a blind eye to it but they''re more than happy to try to find some way to cast a shadow over Ward.

 

All three are very good players and all three have had brilliant seasons for us, there is no weak(er) link amongst them and any suggestion that any of those three are a weak link would have very little substance to it.

[/quote]

Spot on GJP... [Y]

What is really hilarious, is that the OP says that we need somebody who is going to organise the defence (which Wrad currently does), but from our current players he would leave Ward on the bench and partner Barnett with Whitbread.

You really couldn''t make it up could you???

I am sure the majority of fans are just utterly clueless or watch our games with their eyes closed.  Because without doubt, Ward has been the organiser and leader of our defence for the majority of the last season.  Without him our defence as a unit would be totally lost and all at sea.

The majority view will be upheld though, just as it was from the majority with their Simeon Jackson will never make the grade and now apparently Chris Martin (who was much better than Jackson 6 months ago) is useless and we should sell him for £500k... dear oh dear! [:$]
[/quote]

 

Smudger, you seem to like to tell people they are wrong and that you are right however that is just your opinion.  My opinion is that you are wrong.

 

You keep mentioning Ward as the organiser and I agree with that becuse he is the organiser however you seem to be saying he does it well which is where our opinions differ.  If you watch the highlights from last season you will see that our back four is never organised whilst defending.  Good teams with good defences keep their back four in a perfectly straight line when the attack is happening out wide compared to us with players all over the shop.  Also when the attack is coming through the middle good teams with good defences hold off so they can keep organised and not let players through however our defence jumps in early (something which Ward seems to do a lot) allowing gaping big holes for attackers to run through. 

 

Whilst I doubt the ability of Ward I do not doubt the ability of any other defender we have, what we need is a leader to sort them out and get them organised so we can defend against some of the best attacking players in the world.  For me Ward is not good enough for this.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Wallerboi"]

Yeah exactly that. The problem is theres too many know it alls on this site, like "smudger" who just wanna try be clever before reading the post properly. Some peole think are team is far better than it is i swear, u wud of thought we had Stam and Desailly at the back lol. Excuse me if i have spelt that wrong, im sure smudger will correct me!!!

[/quote]More like too many people on this site who want to go along with the majority of our numb nutted fans on here and other sites, who pick on a certain player and slate him for no good reason just because it is the majority view and they can''t think for themselves.Evidence of this can be found in the Simeon Jackson and Chris Martin situation.  Both good players who offer our squad something different.  There was never any doubt in my mind that Simeon Jackson would make the grade for us and his strike ratio for the amount of minutes he had spent on the pitch was actually excellent when the majority of City fans were saying that he was useless and a waste of money.  I also have no doub''t that if Lambert sticks with young Chris Martin that he will come good for us again and have a part to play in our future progression as a club over the next few years.I mean if you want to be taken seriously on a subject then I suggest you get the players names that you are talking about right, instead of referring to him as the panther from Jungle Book.I said we should''ve signed Bougherra about 5 years ago when he was at Sheff Weds, but I don''t for one minute think that he is anything better than what we already have at the club these days.  I am not impressed that he moved to Charlton and then Rangers.  If he had ambitions of playing in the Prem then he really should not have joined a team that is far superior in standard to the majority of it''s competitors in a mickey mouse league.Not saying that he isn''t up to the standard required, but I seriously doubt whether he would be a major improvement on what we have here already.

[Bing Bang 0]

loooool ok i got a spelling wrong, big deal.

 

I agree with you on the chrissy martin and jackson crap that is being wrote, i am not one of those followers. The original post wasnt really aimed at slagging players off. Our players were miracle workers last year without doubt. However you have to start being realistic at some point and get off the Norwich City High Horse and the beliefe that our team cud challenge for champions league ( believe me there are ppl on this site that think that).

 

Anyway time will tell, i guarantee you we will hardly see Elliot Ward next season, thats my opinion and im entitled to it!!

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Boyo"][quote user="Smudger"][quote user="GJP"]

Jeez...not more of the "Elliott Ward won''t be good enough" rubbish.

 

It is baffling how anyone can say with any real conviction that he''ll be worse than Whitbread or Barnett.

 

Whitbread and Barnett have both made obvious and costly mistakes yet for some reason people seem to turn a blind eye to it but they''re more than happy to try to find some way to cast a shadow over Ward.

 

All three are very good players and all three have had brilliant seasons for us, there is no weak(er) link amongst them and any suggestion that any of those three are a weak link would have very little substance to it.

[/quote]Spot on GJP... [Y]What is really hilarious, is that the OP says that we need somebody who is going to organise the defence (which Wrad currently does), but from our current players he would leave Ward on the bench and partner Barnett with Whitbread.You really couldn''t make it up could you???I am sure the majority of fans are just utterly clueless or watch our games with their eyes closed.  Because without doubt, Ward has been the organiser and leader of our defence for the majority of the last season.  Without him our defence as a unit would be totally lost and all at sea.The majority view will be upheld though, just as it was from the majority with their Simeon Jackson will never make the grade and now apparently Chris Martin (who was much better than Jackson 6 months ago) is useless and we should sell him for £500k... dear oh dear! [:$][/quote]

 

Smudger, you seem to like to tell people they are wrong and that you are right however that is just your opinion.  My opinion is that you are wrong.

 

You keep mentioning Ward as the organiser and I agree with that becuse he is the organiser however you seem to be saying he does it well which is where our opinions differ.  If you watch the highlights from last season you will see that our back four is never organised whilst defending.  Good teams with good defences keep their back four in a perfectly straight line when the attack is happening out wide compared to us with players all over the shop.  Also when the attack is coming through the middle good teams with good defences hold off so they can keep organised and not let players through however our defence jumps in early (something which Ward seems to do a lot) allowing gaping big holes for attackers to run through. 

 

Whilst I doubt the ability of Ward I do not doubt the ability of any other defender we have, what we need is a leader to sort them out and get them organised so we can defend against some of the best attacking players in the world.  For me Ward is not good enough for this.

[/quote]My point being that why can''t Barnett and Whitbread organise themselves and the rest of the defence?Why do they leave all of the organisation of the back four to Ward alone if they are better defenders than him?See where I''m coming from now???Those who rate Barnett so highly... how many of them were at Burnley last season where he was absolutely woeful?  Oh that''s right we only had about 700 or 800 fans there didn''t we so that is easily forgotten.Barnett''s distribution is awful (I am sure WBA fans would agree with me on that) and if he starts as a first choice defender constantly giving the ball away cheaply then we will be punished for it at a higher level in my opinion.  I said that Ward and Whitbread would be our best centre half partnership when Barnett got injured and considering we played by far our best football of the season with them at the heart of our defence I think that I was proven correct.  No hindsight - just something I could see far sooner than the majority.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Wallerboi"]

loooool ok i got a spelling wrong, big deal.

 

I agree with you on the chrissy martin and jackson crap that is being wrote, i am not one of those followers. The original post wasnt really aimed at slagging players off. Our players were miracle workers last year without doubt. However you have to start being realistic at some point and get off the Norwich City High Horse and the beliefe that our team cud challenge for champions league ( believe me there are ppl on this site that think that).

 

Anyway time will tell, i guarantee you we will hardly see Elliot Ward next season, thats my opinion and im entitled to it!!

[/quote]I''m not saying that we don''t need another centre half.  I hope that we do add one to the squad.I know you are entitled to your opinion.  We all are and I respect anybody''s opinion when it is put across in the right way and has good reasoning behind why they think the way that they do.What frustrates me is that I think Ward is the best of the centre halves that we have at the club and that the other two are being slightly over-rated by the majority of our fans.  Ward has become like a whipping boy for no good reason in my opinion - just because he is a bit erratic now and again and it is the popular opinion that he is the worst of the three - Barnett-Whitbread-Ward being most peoples choice.Like I have said to Boyo, our defence would be totally at sea if Ward wasn''t in it.  If he is the weak link in our defence then why are the organisational skills of Barnett and Whitbread so poor in comparison?  Organisation is a key element of defending and I would say that our most organised defenders are Ward, followed by Tierney and then Whitbread.Barnett and Russell Martin have poor organisational skills in my opinion.So even if we bring an inspirational, organised leader in to the squad at centre half we will still need Ward to play quite a lot of games in my opinion.

[Boyo 0]

I get what your saying Smudger but I don''t rate Ward as a defender at all.  I will admit he has made some crucial blocks and he is committed to the cause however I rate Barnett and Whitbread far more highly.  If we got an organisational leader to play with Barnett or Whitbread then I think our defence will be far better than with Ward and Whitbread/Barnett with Ward as the organiser.  Ward may be the one organising it but in my opinion he isn''t organising it very well.

 

To put it simply, IMO, Ward isn''t very good at organising the defence although he does seem to try and organise it.

Taking organisation out of the argument for a second I rate Barnett and Whitbread a lot more than Ward.

So I would like us to get an organiser/leader to play with either Barnett or Whitbread and I think we will have a much better defence.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Boyo"]

I get what your saying Smudger but I don''t rate Ward as a defender at all.  I will admit he has made some crucial blocks and he is committed to the cause however I rate Barnett and Whitbread far more highly.  If we got an organisational leader to play with Barnett or Whitbread then I think our defence will be far better than with Ward and Whitbread/Barnett with Ward as the organiser.  Ward may be the one organising it but in my opinion he isn''t organising it very well.

 

To put it simply, IMO, Ward isn''t very good at organising the defence although he does seem to try and organise it.

Taking organisation out of the argument for a second I rate Barnett and Whitbread a lot more than Ward.

So I would like us to get an organiser/leader to play with either Barnett or Whitbread and I think we will have a much better defence.

[/quote]If Ward is as poor at organising and leading the defence as you suggest then I hope we get a truly inspirational leader and spend the rest of our transfer budget (almost) on an ex player of Lambert''s in Roger Johnson.Because if you are correct then without us spending that kind of money it looks like we are going to be screwed this coming season and I better revise my predictions for us and start tipping us for relegation.You may be right, but I don''t think that we have a better defensive leader than Ward in our squad currently and think it will cost us a fortune to get anybody who we can guarantee will be any better in that vital aspect of defending.Like I said, I rated Bougherra many years ago when at Sheff Weds, but I have never viewed him as a leader either and I also have doubts since he moved to Charlton and then decided to play for Rangers North of the border.  Personally I think Bougherra has made some poor career choices that may have cost him his crack at the Prem and while I have thought he is a good player I have serious doubts that he is any better than we already have here (as I also have with Mills at Reading).I certainly agree that we need to add one more centre half though, but I just think that people might well be disappointed, because like I said I consider that it is going to be extremely difficult to find somebody that is a cut above what we currently have at the club without spending ridiculous money.  The kind of money that even if we were willing to spend it at the moment another club would outbid us on price or wages.  We can only hope that Lambert can pull a rabbit out of the hat if Ward really is as poor as many seem to think.