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EMMSY3

The Why Not Brewery - On The Ball

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Don''t want to belittle the thread, but; CHEEEEEESEEEE BOAAAAARD [for you older members ;)]

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Intellectual Property Lawyers exist for this purpose - there are some cracking one''s based here in Norwich and I''d be surprised if one or more hasn''t already been in touch? PM me if you need a steer...

 

The club have rights to protect, so I d see this from both sides.

 

The Why Not Brewery have gained some useful publicity here, so keep the momentum going guys!

 

 

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Did Ant & Dec get warnings about their song "We''re on the Ball" from Norwich City? No, I thought not.Could the brew be associated with a supporterss club then there would be no argument that it''s nothing to do with the NCFC business? Just a thought.

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This stinks, the club has gone too far. As a season ticket holder, share holder and a great believer that the club and community are best served supporting each other, the club has done wrong!

If this had been a big national brewery then I can understand the clubs stance, but this is a Norfolk small brewery who by the looks of things take an active role in supporting the club.

Come on Mr Ferrari & McNally do the right thing and support the local business before it bites NCFC on the backside.

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Rivvo the difference between me and the Why Not Brewery is I don''t make money from what I do but if the Club ever did contact me and ask/tell me to stop using the Club crest and pictures of players I will, that is their right, the one image I know of that was made into a t-shirt was the one with "Let''s all laugh at 1p5wich" on it which is the one I posted saying I had sent the design to the Club and if you look back at the thread about the t-shirt you will see people were urging me to make them but I said about image rights. As far as I know nothing else I have made has been used as a t-shirt design.

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I accept what you say about not making money from any of it, I was just making the point that you also use the clubs badge and players images without their prior consent. As you point out the brewery did exactly the same thing and now has to change it''s labelling, perhaps with your skills in graphic art you could design him a non-infringing new label?

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I will be watching to see how this issue develops with interest as I too once designed t shirts to sell and intend to do it again for the up coming season. Whilst I was always careful never to use any official imagery all the shirts obviously had a Norwich connection, be it slogans, colours etc. and the club never contacted me, presumably because I wasn''t infringing in their trademarks.

I can''t see how, official crest aside, how the club can make these sort of demands, will they be pursuing canary cabs, or canary takeaway, canary cleaners or all the other local businesses that have a proprieter as a Norwich fan?

And say for example you wanted to do a t shirt with "in lambert we trust" or "1p5wich" , these sort of things come from terrace charts and message boards which the club would have no legitimate claim on.

And before anyone says that you are making money off the back of NCFC ,then so what? You maybe reading this on an iPhone which more than likely is in a case made by a manufacturer which isn''t Apple, they are making money off a product that it isn''t theirs but they can do it as long as they don''t use the apple logo, all they are doing are producing extras for another persons product which is the business model for thousands of companies worldwide.

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I''m a member of a fairly large football website, and a few years ago we were warned about using football league logos on the website. This prompted a letter writing campaign looking to secure permission from all the clubs about using the logos, many clubs said they would be fine with it, the website wasn''t making any money out of it so they saw no problem. Neil Doncaster refused permission, stating that it would damage the club''s reputation to have it''s logo affiliated with unofficial opinions. So it''s not just big, bad McNally who ''protects'' the club''s image rights.

(Just for reference Ipswich did grant the website image rights)

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I seem to remember the club shop selling two t shirts based on beer about a decade ago. I know I still have the Budweiser one, to claim intellectual property rights, wouldn''t the club have to have some proof they came up with the phrase first? And as the phrase, On The Ball, pre-dates the football club, they really don''t have a leg to stand on.

Of course, having the money to challenge this is another thing.

I hope the brewery carries on, without the club crest of course.

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[quote user="Plan b"]I will be watching to see how this issue develops with interest as I too once designed t shirts to sell and intend to do it again for the up coming season. Whilst I was always careful never to use any official imagery all the shirts obviously had a Norwich connection, be it slogans, colours etc. and the club never contacted me, presumably because I wasn''t infringing in their trademarks.

I can''t see how, official crest aside, how the club can make these sort of demands, will they be pursuing canary cabs, or canary takeaway, canary cleaners or all the other local businesses that have a proprieter as a Norwich fan?

And say for example you wanted to do a t shirt with "in lambert we trust" or "1p5wich" , these sort of things come from terrace charts and message boards which the club would have no legitimate claim on.

And before anyone says that you are making money off the back of NCFC ,then so what? You maybe reading this on an iPhone which more than likely is in a case made by a manufacturer which isn''t Apple, they are making money off a product that it isn''t theirs but they can do it as long as they don''t use the apple logo, all they are doing are producing extras for another persons product which is the business model for thousands of companies worldwide.[/quote]Plan B - make sure to post on here when you''re selling T-shirts again - I still wear my Obi-wan Kenobi "Portman Road - You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany" shirt with pride!

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[quote user="Nuff Said"]Plan B - make sure to post on here when you''re selling T-shirts again - I still wear my Obi-wan Kenobi "Portman Road - You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany" shirt with pride![/quote]I''ve donated a page on my website to a guy selling "Snakepit" t-shirts, they have nothing to do with me but you can see them here just go to the Snakepit Gear page.

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Whilst using the club logo was a BIG no no, the rest of it, i.e. colours and On the Ball name, I am sure are fine. If you told the club you were removing the logo but would continue to produce the beer with the same colours and name, there would be little they could do. I suppose they could threaten to sue you for the previous use of their logo, but I would expect they would not be able to do that as you have complied immediately with their request for you to stop using the logo. Without the use of the logo you would be doing no more than many other businesses in the city who use canary in their name and the club colours. There is even a Canary Car Wash up the road from me now!

You seem to be scared of landing a huge bill should you take on the club in legal action. However, I would suspect this would not be the case as the club really would have no case against you with the logo being removed. Also, would they really want to pursue action against you without the logo and with only tenuous claims on copyright regarding anything else to do with the product. Would they really want to waste £1000? £10000? £50000? And all in the fans eye! I doubt it very much. Why not speak with some solicitors in the city. You will probably find that some will offer a free 30min or hour consultation. Who are Foster''s biggest competitor? They might even offer to act for you for free given the publicity an action would undoubtedly generate. Why not get a legal consultation and ask for a letter from them saying why the club have no case against you. Send that to the club and tell them you intend to continue with the product albeit without the club logo and possibly with a disclaimer on the label stating the product is not affiliated to the club. It seems crazy to abandon the product if it does well for your business.

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[quote user="CaptnCanary"]

Whilst using the club logo was a BIG no no, the rest of it, i.e. colours and On the Ball name, I am sure are fine. If you told the club you were removing the logo but would continue to produce the beer with the same colours and name, there would be little they could do. I suppose they could threaten to sue you for the previous use of their logo, but I would expect they would not be able to do that as you have complied immediately with their request for you to stop using the logo. Without the use of the logo you would be doing no more than many other businesses in the city who use canary in their name and the club colours. There is even a Canary Car Wash up the road from me now!

You seem to be scared of landing a huge bill should you take on the club in legal action. However, I would suspect this would not be the case as the club really would have no case against you with the logo being removed. Also, would they really want to pursue action against you without the logo and with only tenuous claims on copyright regarding anything else to do with the product. Would they really want to waste £1000? £10000? £50000? And all in the fans eye! I doubt it very much. Why not speak with some solicitors in the city. You will probably find that some will offer a free 30min or hour consultation. Who are Foster''s biggest competitor? They might even offer to act for you for free given the publicity an action would undoubtedly generate. Why not get a legal consultation and ask for a letter from them saying why the club have no case against you. Send that to the club and tell them you intend to continue with the product albeit without the club logo and possibly with a disclaimer on the label stating the product is not affiliated to the club. It seems crazy to abandon the product if it does well for your business.

[/quote]It''s not the product it''s the label.  They can''t stop him from brewing it, it''s a matter of changing the label.  If it was me, I''d try and think of a name that takes the piss.Perhaps the brewery could have a comp to think of one. 

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Well the sage has reached The Beeb.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-13906019

The footnote that caused me concern was that if Mr Emms continued to disregard NCFC one of the penalties would be banning from Carow Road.

The club should get a grip as this will cause them more grief than it warrants if they ban Mr Emms.

H

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[quote user="haisbrohacker"]Well the sage has reached The Beeb.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-13906019

The footnote that caused me concern was that if Mr Emms continued to disregard NCFC one of the penalties would be banning from Carow Road.

The club should get a grip as this will cause them more grief than it warrants if they ban Mr Emms.

H[/quote]I read that as a general statement h, not just aimed at Mr Emms."The club''s position on prolonged misuse of its brand is clear. After

fair warning, any continuing misuse will result in further legal action

and/or issuing a ban from Carrow Road."

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[quote user="haisbrohacker"]Well the sage has reached The Beeb. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-13906019 [/quote]It was the BBC that bought it to everyone''s attention last week, after Why Not Brewery went to them with the letter. That''s why the first line of the club''s statement is: "Following a recent story that appeared on the BBC news website..."

 

http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/NewsDetails/0,,10355~2381607,00.html

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Oh dear, was driving from Dereham Road to the ring road today and saw a huge banner for Canary Car Wash and lo and behold on the banner they have the NCFC crest. [:D]

 

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[quote user="Nuff Said"][quote user="Plan b"]I will be watching to see how this issue develops with interest as I too once designed t shirts to sell and intend to do it again for the up coming season. Whilst I was always careful never to use any official imagery all the shirts obviously had a Norwich connection, be it slogans, colours etc. and the club never contacted me, presumably because I wasn''t infringing in their trademarks.

I can''t see how, official crest aside, how the club can make these sort of demands, will they be pursuing canary cabs, or canary takeaway, canary cleaners or all the other local businesses that have a proprieter as a Norwich fan?

And say for example you wanted to do a t shirt with "in lambert we trust" or "1p5wich" , these sort of things come from terrace charts and message boards which the club would have no legitimate claim on.

And before anyone says that you are making money off the back of NCFC ,then so what? You maybe reading this on an iPhone which more than likely is in a case made by a manufacturer which isn''t Apple, they are making money off a product that it isn''t theirs but they can do it as long as they don''t use the apple logo, all they are doing are producing extras for another persons product which is the business model for thousands of companies worldwide.[/quote]Plan B - make sure to post on here when you''re selling T-shirts again - I still wear my Obi-wan Kenobi "Portman Road - You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany" shirt with pride![/quote]

cheers Nuff, really glad to hear that you are still wearing it, will let you know on here when I get a brand new batch of designs out.

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As has already been mentioned it does seem a bit of a coincidence that the club has waited until now to challenge this.

 

It would have surely been an ideal opportunity for all concerned for the club and brewery to strike up a deal. The possibilities could have been endless, from selling the beer in the ground, gift packs in the shop, recipes using the beer in a Delia cookbook etc etc.

 

Perhaps as has also already been mentioned the club are tied into or will be tied into a deal with another brewery? And perhaps the club are planning on releasing their own beer with another brewery, so they had to ensure that this one was removed from sale?

 

Keep making it, remove the crest and either go for one of the names already mentioned such as "On The Ball, City Ale" or pick a name with some humour behind it for example "Carrow Whine"

 

I can see it from the Club''s point of view, but if they start threatening BAN at the first sign of an issue and potentially start alienating local small businesses, believing perhaps that this will have little or no impact on the Club''s current status/success then this would be a very naive move as sooner rather than later this will come back and bite them on the behind. 

 

I am not for one minute suggesting that the Club should remain as little old family, friendly, Norwich. We have to change, and become more savvy and tougher which we have done. Equally the club should do this in a way that still keeps them true to their roots, in a fair way and without alienating the fans or local businesses.

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[quote user="Better Wizard"]Spangles cheers mate. People just don''t like me because i have views that to some seems extreme however they don''t have the intellect to realize how the powerful get away with their absurd ways of having maximum control. [/quote]I neither know you, like you or not like you but if I think you are being a prat I will say so, I responded earlier in the thread when you posted:[quote user="Better Wizard"]Emmsy so sorry to what has happened. I think

it''s a total disgrace and i have been one who has always been against

mcnally ever since he started removing certain people out the snakepit

as though he was a member of the Gastapo over the last few years.[/quote]IMO to liken McNally to the Gestapo is ridiculous and could get you into trouble with the Club, as for him "removing certain people out the snakepit" have you actually seen him in there removing them? I know I haven''t.I take it you are referring to some of the NHS or some that persistently stand and argue with the stewards when asked to sit, I don''t know if you are connected to either of these groups? I have nothing against any of them but they don''t always use their common sense, I don''t like sitting and spend the majority of the game standing but when asked to sit if everyone in front of me is sitting I do sit until the stewards have passed and by then there is usually a reason to be on your feet again.

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[quote user="zemas tendon"]What about "On The Ball" Sausages sold at the Butchers in North Norfolk!!! What is the world coming too[/quote]They don''t have the clubs crest on them. [IMG]http://www.talksox.com/forum/attachments/general-baseball-forum/649d1254790901-2009-nlds-rockies-phillies-facepalm.gif[/IMG]

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I really cannot believe people are actually upset by this. With the clubs brand in the spotlight we have to protect our image, this includes our logo. It is one of the very few tangible and almost liquid assets we have. That or players, which would you prefer we were selling?

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[quote user="jayncfc"]I really cannot believe people are actually upset by this. With the clubs brand in the spotlight we have to protect our image, this includes our logo. It is one of the very few tangible and almost liquid assets we have. That or players, which would you prefer we were selling?[/quote]It''s their bloody logo apparently. They''ve made that clear. If it was ours he''d be allowed to use it.  They got the the thing for next to **** all in the first place.Protect our image my arse.

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I think that using the clubs emblem on the bottles was a foolish move by Why Not Brewery and that the club have probably come down as hard as they have due to that.  I can''t really see that they would''ve had a leg to stand on if the beer was simply called "On the Ball" but used another design on the bootles in the first place.  The fact that Why Not Brewery overstepped the mark initially and then got away with it for 3 years obviously mean that the club now have more rights over claiming the misuse of other intellectual property that they feel has been used as well as the copyrighted badge.Now that the club has the upper hand I would say that they are unlikely to not ensure that their demands are upheld.A shame as the beer would now have to find a new name as well as new designs to go on the bottles I would guess?  This could have been avoided, but now that Why Not Brewery has grabbed some media coverage - it would be the ideal time to just rename the beer and make the public aware that this was the infamous beer that NCFC asked them to rename.For what it''s worth I have had a bottle of Why Not Brewery''s "On the Ball" and thought it was a great ale.  It is unfortunate that this has happened as it is a much better beer than Winters "On the Beer City" which doesn''t appear to infringe upon the intellectual property rights of the club because of the way they have cleverly marketed their product.

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[quote user="SPANGLES"][quote user="jayncfc"]I really cannot believe people are actually upset by this. With the clubs brand in the spotlight we have to protect our image, this includes our logo. It is one of the very few tangible and almost liquid assets we have. That or players, which would you prefer we were selling?[/quote]It''s their bloody logo apparently. They''ve made that clear. If it was ours he''d be allowed to use it.  They got the the thing for next to **** all in the first place.Protect our image my arse. [/quote]I disagree, it is our logo. However, in order to protect our interests from people misusing it and paying nothing for the honor of it. If not then we must allow McNally to act as he see''s fit.

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[quote user="jayncfc"][quote user="SPANGLES"][quote user="jayncfc"]I really cannot believe people are actually upset by this. With the clubs brand in the spotlight we have to protect our image, this includes our logo. It is one of the very few tangible and almost liquid assets we have. That or players, which would you prefer we were selling?[/quote]It''s their bloody logo apparently. They''ve made that clear. If it was ours he''d be allowed to use it.  They got the the thing for next to **** all in the first place.Protect our image my arse. [/quote]I disagree, it is our logo. However, in order to protect our interests from people misusing it and paying nothing for the honor of it. If not then we must allow McNally to act as he see''s fit.[/quote]Well there you go, as far as my opinion goes, you''re a prime example of somebody falling for the BS.  I''m sure you''ll do very well in the snitch squad reporting all misuse of their crest.

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So you would happily allow the use of the crest by anyone who wanted to use it as a means of tapping into an established market to make a quick quid?  It''s not BS, it''s protecting one of the clubs most liquid assets. Your probably the one of the first to moan when we have to sell a player to balance the books.

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Harry in answer to your question from various football drinking circles in a number of pubs that i frequent i know 100 percent of a number of fans and yes fans people who have been supporting this club through thick and thin who have been deemed surplus to requirements and have been given letters saying they are not welcome back to carrow road. These letters were issued by Mcnally and signed. The reasons for them being banned from carrow road vary. I will not go into exact details as its unfair on those that it has affected. Some of the reasons are as ridiculous as rushing to the front of the stand when a goal goes in. Yes there may be health hazards with this however it has always happened and happens at every away ground often in the away stands. They can''t stop it and banning fans who do this will not stop it. Watch it happen every time we score a prem goal next season. There are other reasons as well but like i said i won''t go into it.

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