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zak123

That old saying: "Premier League Experience"...

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... is a load of rubbish.

See so many people of this bored and in other places constantly talking about how we need players with "Premier League Experience" or this signing is no good because he has no "Premier League Experience" or Paul Lambert is going to use the rest of the 7 with players who have "Premier League Experience".

Please stop using this, it is quite simply wrong.

Most of the players with "Premier League Experience" that people keep quoting are just old players who have played a couple of seasons in the Premier with terrible teams. How is this anymore experience than what we have got at the moment.

If you look at Lambert''s signings so far, very few over the past 2 years represent the idea of having experience of the league that we were in. For example Crofts last year, everyone moaned that our first signing of the year was not ambitious, but look at how everyone saw him at the end of the season, a hero.

Lambert looks for players with footballing experience if anything, not "Premier League Experience", for example Wilbraham last year was brought in and played very well (tin hat on), and did exactly what Lambert wanted him to do, not what the crowd wanted him to do. He passes the ball on and is not selfish, that is Wilbraham, tonnes of footballing experience, but no Championship experience.

If anything players without this experience could end up being a good thing, instead of getting in a 28 yr old who has played against Man U/Chelsea/Arsenal about 20 times in his career and has been thumped 4-0 every time. We could actually get some players who look forward to their first game vs a Mega Club and genuinely believe that they are good enough to go out and pull off the upset.

Another negative with the experienced players is that they will often command high wages, however from the way Lambert plays, will not feature that much, which means we will be paying a lot just to have that in the squad.

Perhaps with a manager in the Premier for the first time, lets let him make his own decisions on who to bring in, not this experience non sense which got us relegated in 04-05 and got us in financial trouble.

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[quote user="zak123"]... is a load of rubbish. See so many people of this bored and in other places constantly talking about how we need players with "Premier League Experience" or this signing is no good because he has no "Premier League Experience" or Paul Lambert is going to use the rest of the 7 with players who have "Premier League Experience". Please stop using this, it is quite simply wrong. Most of the players with "Premier League Experience" that people keep quoting are just old players who have played a couple of seasons in the Premier with terrible teams. How is this anymore experience than what we have got at the moment. If you look at Lambert''s signings so far, very few over the past 2 years represent the idea of having experience of the league that we were in. For example Crofts last year, everyone moaned that our first signing of the year was not ambitious, but look at how everyone saw him at the end of the season, a hero. Lambert looks for players with footballing experience if anything, not "Premier League Experience", for example Wilbraham last year was brought in and played very well (tin hat on), and did exactly what Lambert wanted him to do, not what the crowd wanted him to do. He passes the ball on and is not selfish, that is Wilbraham, tonnes of footballing experience, but no Championship experience. If anything players without this experience could end up being a good thing, instead of getting in a 28 yr old who has played against Man U/Chelsea/Arsenal about 20 times in his career and has been thumped 4-0 every time. We could actually get some players who look forward to their first game vs a Mega Club and genuinely believe that they are good enough to go out and pull off the upset. Another negative with the experienced players is that they will often command high wages, however from the way Lambert plays, will not feature that much, which means we will be paying a lot just to have that in the squad. Perhaps with a manager in the Premier for the first time, lets let him make his own decisions on who to bring in, not this experience non sense which got us relegated in 04-05 and got us in financial trouble.[/quote]

Agree with you there Zak, I at one time was looking to see what players we could get from relegated teams, but then thought why would we want them, these players are used to losing week in week out and anyway the only way to get experience in the Prem is to get there first, they all started off with no experience anyway.

 

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It makes sense to have a good player who will fit in to the team, rather than one with premier league experience.Just because they have played in the PL doesn''t automatically make them any good !!!

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Spot on Zak - I was going to start a thread about this the other day but didn''t get round to it.

IMO it is important to have some experienced heads in the side, but the level that their experience was gained is largely of secondary importance so long as they are good enough.

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Good post.  The only players with this ''experience'' we would actually have a chance of getting and can actually afford are all the rubbish ones who cant get into teams or ones who are also rubbish and just been relegated and why would we want that!?

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Great post Zak

I''ve often thought most premier league managers strategies have been based on pundit style cliches. Original thought and common sense approach and no fear has served us well so far and will continue too.

Can''t wait.

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Only time will tell if you''re right or not Zac.  I''d prefer a few more players in that are used to playing in the prem.  Players that have performed in front of 40, 50 or 60,000 people every week, (some of our players have never or less than a handfull of times played in front of more than 26,000 at Carrow road.) players that know how to hold on to games when we need to in the last 10 minutes, players who are used to the tempo of the premier league.  Blackpools inexperience cost them in the end.  Virtually all of their squad had barely played any premier league football, and while they came close to staying up, they didn''t.  Perhaps if they''d had a bit more experience and composure, they could;ve picked up the extra 2 or 3 points they needed. 

 

Whilst i''m all for giving the guys who got us up a chance at the top level, and i''m not looking for wholesale changes, i do feel we need 2, maybe 3 players who have been round the block a bit.  If the wages are right, players like Bowyer or maybe Stephen Carr or Danny Gabbidon or even Reo-coker for example, someone whos a little ruff around the edges, who can come on and help see the game out for the last 15 or 20 minutes, who''ll give everything for the cause. 

 

 

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"Players that have performed in front of 40, 50 or 60,000 people every week"

Who, on that basis, would not be much use at Wigan, Blackburn, Bolton, Wolves, Fulham, Stoke etc ...... or at Carrow Road come to that. Not sure either where there at that many grounds that would allow a player to play in front of "of 40, 50 or 60,000 people every week"

"players that know how to hold on to games when we need to in the last 10 minutes"

Yes silly old us, we tend to try and score in the last ten minutes or so. Fat lot of good that has done us.

"Blackpools inexperience cost them in the end"

Or maybe not strengthening their squad in January. However that inexperience didn''t seem to have held them back before January, not did a lack of tempo as they came close to staying up''. Maybe the longer they played the more inexperienced they became !

"players who are used to the tempo of the premier league." ..........

...... but so used to it that they can only manage (or be used) to "come on and help see the game out for the last 15 or 20 minutes".

It is the Premier League, not the ruddy Alamo.

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Zak if you look at Lamberts signings last year a more than you think had championship experience. I believe it to be about 50%. We signed Elliot Ward from Coventry with a wealth of Championship experience, Leon Barnett from West Brom, Andrew Surman from Wolves who played their with Southampton (A team who were relegated from that league), Henri Lansbury with Watford and David Fox had a couple of seasons with Blackpool in the championship as well. Also Steven Smith was signed from Rangers this may not be championship experience but he had European football under his belt. Other previous signings such as McNamee had both Championship and Premiership at Watford, Zak Whitbread had Championship at Millwall and maybe I''ve even missed out on some.

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[quote user="City1st"]"Players that have performed in front of 40, 50 or 60,000 people every week" Who, on that basis, would not be much use at Wigan, Blackburn, Bolton, Wolves, Fulham, Stoke etc ...... or at Carrow Road come to that. Not sure either where there at that many grounds that would allow a player to play in front of "of 40, 50 or 60,000 people every week" "players that know how to hold on to games when we need to in the last 10 minutes" Yes silly old us, we tend to try and score in the last ten minutes or so. Fat lot of good that has done us. "Blackpools inexperience cost them in the end" Or maybe not strengthening their squad in January. However that inexperience didn''t seem to have held them back before January, not did a lack of tempo as they came close to staying up''. Maybe the longer they played the more inexperienced they became ! "players who are used to the tempo of the premier league." .......... ...... but so used to it that they can only manage (or be used) to "come on and help see the game out for the last 15 or 20 minutes". It is the Premier League, not the ruddy Alamo.[/quote]

 

That dealt with me then, with hindsight, you''ve made my comments look a little silly, so i''ll try to explain a little further.  I just dont see us playing with the same gung-ho style we took last year.  Teams are a lot more organised and a lot quicker on the break.  This is Lamberts first go at the Premier league and he needs options, lots of options.  The diamonds serveds us well over the last 2 years, but we''ve seen last season that we concede plenty of goals, too many, we aint gonna be able to outscore teams like we did last season.  Hence why i feel we need a couple of players to see games out.  Also i think you''re kidding yourself if you beleive we can score 10-15 goals in the last 10 minutes.

 

I mentioned about the crowds, because so many of our squad are used to playing in front of a big home crowd of 25,000 or so, when they go away, more often than not its to grounds where the average gate is 10-15,000, i just hope they are not over-awed by going to places where we''d hope to get points, perhaps Villa Park, Stadium of Light, St James'' park, even smaller grounds like Molyneux (sp?), Craven Cottage, Brittainia, they can stir up a crowd.  Also, when we go to the big boys, we cannot afford to ship 4 or 5 goals to all of them.

 

The tempo is a lot quicker in the prem, you can have a corner at one end and concede within 8 or 9 seconds down the other.  The reason why i put that they could come on for the last quarter or so, is because the players that got us up, deserve a chance.  Players like Crofts, Fox, Jackson, Holt, Surman, R Martin, they cover a lot of ground during 90 minutes, i hope they can step up to the demands of the prem, becuase there will be a lot of games where they will be chasing the ball for long periods. Also, away points are tough to come by in the prem, if we''re trying to hold onto a 1-0 lead away somewhere, it''d be good to have someone to come on to give a fresh set of legs, who knows what to expect against the teams we''re up against.

 

I was merely only suggesting we bring in a couple of experienced heads and i think Lambert would be slightly naive not to.  I''ll probably get slaughtered for what i''m gonna say next, but i expect us to struggle next season.  I dont see anything other than a relegation battle.  We''ve had an incredible journey, everyone at the club has done fantastic and i''m sure we''ll give it a real good go, but its gonna be a lot tougher than some people on here seem to think.

 

Tin hat is on...

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jed

I think you are falling into the trap of trying to make facts fit your view. Maybe that they don''t should give you cause for further thought. Firstly don''t take too much notice of the sometime robust or ''humorous'' way I reply. It''s mostly tongue inn cheek.

I didn''t claim we would score 10 -15 goals in the last bit of the game. I was pointing out the flaw in your argument about '' holding on to games'' as this presumes we already have something to hold on to. If we do as bad as you suggest then we will at least need some kind of gung ho (or similar) approach as the likelihood is that we will be losing.

" if we''re trying to hold onto a 1-0 lead away somewhere, it''d be good to have someone to come on to give a fresh set of legs, who knows what to expect against the teams we''re up against"

I would suggest those taht got us 1-0 up either what to expect or how to cope as they have got us 1-0 up. You don''t say who we would bring on if we were 0-1 down. Or whether it would have been better to had them on to stop us going 0-1 down.

The size of the crowd is pretty much irrelevant as games away at Derby, Ipswich and Doncaster would testify. Many of our players came from clubs with very small crowds and yet easily stepped up when in the Championship. We also know about playing from one end to the other, remember Martins goal at poorman rd ?

Unfortunately jed, you seem to be falling into the trap that quite a few fall into on here, that somehow we have stumbled into the Premier League and are now looking around, blinking, and wondering what do we do now. The same hard faced, determined professionalism that got us out of League 1 by a clear distance, that got us out of the Chamopionship (and nearly grabbed the title) has not been aware of all the concerns you have raised ? I think not.

Nor do I think those that got us up should be given a chance, on that basis alone. They should be in the squad and they should play on one basis alone - merit. Too long we have been the '' nice'' club, where the managers job is passed to an old favourite as perhaps they ''deserve a chance''.

Whether the squad assembled will feature a Peters, Suggett or O''Neill type player with experience who can play most of te 90 minutes I don''t know - there could be a n argumant for that, but the idea of having a couple or so ''nightwatchmen who can come in and hold the fort for the last part of the game is not what I think our squad or approach is about.

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No offence taken, i''ve been around on this board for long enough to know what most of you lot are like [;)] good to have a sensible debate with you on here, usually it resorts to name calling.

 

Ultimately, time will tell, i take your points on board, but i still cant help but think that these guys, the majority of which have had a metioric rise up, may find this a step too far and need a hand. No doubt  they deserve a chance.  In the press, Mcanlly, Lambert, Delia etc, they will be as positive as they can, but with the 2 signings made so far, i sort of think that we are almost preparing a squad that would be capable of bouncing back to the prem if we were relegated.  I was quite pleased with the Morison signing, but a bit underwhelmed by Vauagan.  I dont know a lot about Bennett and does Johnson improve the first 11?  Again, only time will tell.  I''m not writing anyone off, i''m all for giving everyone a chance, but i really do feel the squad need a bit of help.

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You are judging us on two signings. The same sentiments were expressed when we came up from League 1.Lambert has already spoken of around seven, new players. Has repeatedly talked about the squad ''needing a hand'' .

It is more how the team and behind them the squad function. One of the lessons we have learnt over the past two seasons should have answred your major concern. Can we hang on ? Can we dig out draws and the odd win we it looks against us. i would say on those past two seasons, an absolute YES. Not because we have certain players, what you sem to be asking for but because the ethos has been installed into them.

In that light i suggest Lambert is looking for players who are capable of that type of play, week in week out. Players who will slot in and do the job rather than ''show ponies'' who surviuve on hype as much as performance. Our difficult time will come when we hit the teams second time around. So many times before teams have come up to the top league and played their owmn game and pulled off some good results. The next game is not so easy. Top teams have top coaches and top ''observers'', those that can identify weaknesses and exploit them, That was Blackpools failing - the inability to strengthen in January. Even then they almost made it.

Both Hull and Pompey came down having spent on the type of players you speak of. Maybe you should ask yourself what it is taht managers (and coaches) like Lambert can get out of players that others can''t. Why can they build winning teams when clubs like Cardiff and recently Leicester seem to throw money at the problem and still fall short. If you can answer that then maybe you can begin to answer your own doubts.

West Ham didn''t get relegated for failing to spend money or for failing to bring in a few seasoned old pro''s. They fafiled because so much was wrong off field. it''s not about trusting Lambert but. maybe looking a bit closer at what''s going on from the board downwards.

ps the hoary old myth about building a team to bounce back is one of these farcical bits of buffoonery that seems to float about and delude many a dimwit as did the pastor in the states who led so many to believe that the world was about to end.

If we get relegated there is NO guarantee that any player will stay with us. Not only financially will we have to shed a fair few (we will be a minimum £25m worse off) but many like Norison will want to remain in the PL. We are building a squad to stay in the PL. So get your pennies out and stick a few bob on us staying up, before the odds shorten even further

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Fair points, but i still feel you''re underestimating the challenge ahead this season.

 

P.S, I''ll be keeping my pennies in my pocket, i guarantee there will be a point in the season where we are bigger odds that 6/4 or whatever it is at the moment.

 

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