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Dave

Foreign Player Rules - Would you like a return to stricter rules?

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Would you like to see a return to the days when the number of foreign players on the pitch - to help the quality of the england team, time and again we have seen talented English players in the big clubs farmed out to other teams on short term loans and not making any real impact until they are in their mid to late 20''s

Problems of the past included players representing other UK sides being counted as foreign and also players who later opt to play for another country through family connections also being counted as foreign

I would like to see a return but with the condition that any player who has played their whole professional career in the country but opting to play for another country should not be counted as foreign.

There has been issues about reinstating a rule about EU players freedom of work, but as far as im concerned if a player is playing for the club and being paid and is training and so on hes working for the club.

Most of Norwich''s squad wouldnt be counted as foreign and lambert seems to like to buy home grown players where possible.

What are your thoughts on this, im sure there will be lots of mixed opinions

 

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Yes, not a total ban, but a tighter policy. Although that would affect the Premier League`s saleability abroad, so can`t see it happening.

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I suppose it depends whether you want to have the most exciting domestic league in the world or a top rate international team.

 

One of the joys of the Premier League is the involvement of players from almost every corner of the world. It has attracted players such as Henry, Klinsmann, Bergkamp, Cantona, Kanchelskis, Zola, Crespo, Kinkladze etc who English fans have been so excited to watch in their home stadiums. It will be so fantastic to see Tevez, Drogba, Suarez, Hernandez, Modric, Van Persie, Silva, Nani etc running around at Carrow Road.

 

However, there is no question in my mind that the make up of the Premier League is a significant factor in the demise of the England team. Without their foreign stars (with their superior technique and reading of the game) surrounding them our boys look pale shadows of their ''usual'' selves in England shirts.

 

So, for me, that''s what it boils down to ... and thats why we are guaranteed a thrilling Premier League but a woeful England team - and always will be.   

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you can`t put the genie back in the bottle, as the saying goes. it`s too late now, unless the rule is enforced world-wide, the days of all english sides are a thing of the past, or at least SUCCESSFUL all english sides. it`d be nice to see, but even then the big rich boys would just snap up every promising looking young player from rival, smaller teams` academies, and leave the rest for the remaining clubs to fight over.

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I don''t see how stricter rules is going to make much of a difference to the "quality" of the England team.  I am a believer in if the player is good enough then he would (and should ) be picked regardless of nationality.  Why are Spanish and German teams not falling over themselves to sign young British players?- because they are not good enough and cost too much.  The only result of stricter rules would be to over inflate the price of young British players even more. You can already see evidence of this in the aftermath of the 8 home grown players rule. There is no way that players like Carroll and Henderson are worth the amount payed for them but their home grown status adds value.

What would benefit the England team would be tighter rules regarding overall squad size and a reduction in the amount of players that football league clubs are allowed to loan. That would put an end to the bigger clubs simply snapping up the next wonderkid at the age of 16 or 17 and then loaning him out.  Jenkinson, the guy Arsenal have just signed, is a case in point.  Surely he would benefit from a couple of seasons in the Charlton first team rather than being loaned out here, there and everywhere

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It''s an interesting topic, but I''m not convinced it actually would benefit the England team to be honest.

Do you want England players playing against the best in the world week in/week out or do you want more of them playing in a diluted talent pool?

The Turkish league is seen by most to be weak and they have a pretty strict cap on foreign players - 6 foreign players allowed per club, but their national team is pretty good so maybe it does work?

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There is the problem that while the EU governs who can work where, the FA or PL will have very little say in the matter

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[quote user="dhickl"]There is the problem that while the EU governs who can work where, the FA or PL will have very little say in the matter[/quote]And many of the non EU countries are the very countries FIFA are trying to bring in to World football by selling them  World Cups (allegedly according to certain FIFA representatives [:$]) so I can''t see we''d get much leverage from FIFA if we looked at limiting nationalities.

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[quote user="dhickl"]There is the problem that while the EU governs who can work where, the FA or PL will have very little say in the matter[/quote]

But if the player is being paid by the club a weekly salary, then surely they are working for the club even if the dont play in the starting XI, it would be the same as a work place saying to me we dont need you today but you will still be paid.

If they are on pay as you play then it could be slightly different

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[quote user="Dave"]

[quote user="dhickl"]There is the problem that while the EU governs who can work where, the FA or PL will have very little say in the matter[/quote]

But if the player is being paid by the club a weekly salary, then surely they are working for the club even if the dont play in the starting XI, it would be the same as a work place saying to me we dont need you today but you will still be paid.

If they are on pay as you play then it could be slightly different

[/quote]EUFA wanted to restrict the non-nationals representing the club in European competitions, like they used to. 

However, the idea is that if a club is restricted on number of non-nationals in the team, it will limit their opportunities in the squad and therefore non-nationals would be disadvantaged when it comes to recruitment.  This is then discriminating against non-nationals, and not allowed.  That''s why EUFA have bought in the ''home growns'', it was the result of negotiations with the EU. 

This way it is not specifying a nationality, and no-one can say that club X is being prejudiced against a player because of the nationality, it is only based upon where they trained as a footballer. 

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English players are already over-valued. Just how much do you want teams to be paying for the likes of Carroll?

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A cap on overseas players is being brought in via the squad rules which will becoming increasingly tough over the next few years.There is no real pattern across the Leagues in regard to number of foreign players and quality of the national team. It isn''t as easy as saying it''s all the fault of clubs bringing in players and blocking English youngsters. What I would flag out as a big problem is the reluctance English players have to going abroad to play in other leagues, I can only think of one English player in a top division in any of the other leagues around Europe at the moment and that is Mancienne who has only just moved, this is fairly shocking and completely unique to England.

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I do think for England''s sake, that that there should be a requirement of some sorts within the match day squad. Two English U21s or something? Would force clubs to develop young players better.

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How about a wage cap on under 21s so they grow up with some semblance of normality in their lives. Much of England''s problems are down to the players'' personalities and earning 100''s of thousands of pounds at such a young age is hardly likely to produce mentally strong players.

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[quote user="kick it off"]Do you want England players playing against the best in the world week in/week out or do you want more of them playing in a diluted talent pool? [/quote]That''s half the problem though, the future England players aren''t playing against the best in the world week in/week out, they are being farmed out on loan to Championship/Upper League 1 teams or being used for cup competitions only.

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[quote user="Jimbo_Jet_Set"]

I don''t see how stricter rules is going to make much of a difference to the "quality" of the England team.  I am a believer in if the player is good enough then he would (and should ) be picked regardless of nationality.  Why are Spanish and German teams not falling over themselves to sign young British players?- because they are not good enough and cost too much.  The only result of stricter rules would be to over inflate the price of young British players even more. You can already see evidence of this in the aftermath of the 8 home grown players rule. There is no way that players like Carroll and Henderson are worth the amount payed for them but their home grown status adds value.

What would benefit the England team would be tighter rules regarding overall squad size and a reduction in the amount of players that football league clubs are allowed to loan. That would put an end to the bigger clubs simply snapping up the next wonderkid at the age of 16 or 17 and then loaning him out.  Jenkinson, the guy Arsenal have just signed, is a case in point.  Surely he would benefit from a couple of seasons in the Charlton first team rather than being loaned out here, there and everywhere

[/quote]

I could not agree with this any stronger. The problems of the loan system affecting football in so many ways must be highlighted and the system changed.

Not only do young players get moved about from club to club, which must affect their deelopment, they also are used by the bigger clubs as a means of consolidating their position as some of the richest clubs in the country.

When, oh when, oh when are clubs going to wake up to the damage loan players are doing to the game?

What would the likes of Arsenal do with another 17 or 18 (the number of players they had on loan last season) professional players at their club if they could not loan them out? Perhaps they would have to release a few and then perhaps other clubs could have a chance of picking up good players at reasonable prices. As has been said, the top clubs now monopolise the top young players in the country (and from abroad if they can get them), have massive squads in the knowledge that they can get other clubs to develop them. A young player having a permanent home must surely settle and develop better than one who is forever moving from club to club, experiencing differing coaching and training techniques.

Having squad sizes at 25 means nothing if you can have as many young players as Arsenal and the other richest clubs in the country if you are allowed to loan them out to all and sundry in the hope of finding a ''gem''. This restricts the opportunities of all the smaller clubs of finding players who could secure their financial future as either a big transfer later or as a player to develop their club to a higher position and the rewards that come from that.

Overall the national game does suffer as our players are not given the same priority as players brought in from abroad who, generally, are not loaned away from their parent clubs so quickly.

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Im a bit fed up with England as a national team and lets face it it''s going to get worse, who is the next Gerrard or Beckham or Rooney?  So I say lets keep with the exciting Premier League because restricting the foreign players is never going to happen because it is all down to money and the more world class players there are in the Premiership the more money there is to be made.

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No. The main problem the England team has is a lack of players who are comfortable on the ball and who have the technical ability to play a more measured passing game. We are also pretty inflexible tactically which led to the poor showing at the last World Cup where our manager insisted on playing an outdated 4-4-2 formation. As Bethnal has already pointed out it would help greatly if more English players (and managers) went abroad and learned different styles of playing but, with the occasional exception, our players don''t tend to travel well.

 

We do finally seem to be producing more technically gifted players. The lad Jones who Man Yoo have signed is a centre back who is comfortable playing in midfield and Jack Wishere looks like he has been playing international football for years. But we need more and with the footballing culture of this country tending to treat flair players with suspicion it is going to be difficult to develop these players at anywhere except the very top clubs.

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Stricter rules would result in the prices of English players being higher and would also diminish the standard of the Premier League.

Rather than improve the England team, it would make it less effective. We have tended to do better in international competitions since the influx of foreign players. We failed to even qualify for the World Cup on 1974 and 1978 and 1994. We failed to qualify for the Euro Championship in 1972, 1976, 1984 and of course 2008.

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[quote user="Shack Attack"]

No. The main problem the England team has is a lack of players who are comfortable on the ball and who have the technical ability to play a more measured passing game. We are also pretty inflexible tactically which led to the poor showing at the last World Cup where our manager insisted on playing an outdated 4-4-2 formation. As Bethnal has already pointed out it would help greatly if more English players (and managers) went abroad and learned different styles of playing but, with the occasional exception, our players don''t tend to travel well.

 

We do finally seem to be producing more technically gifted players. The lad Jones who Man Yoo have signed is a centre back who is comfortable playing in midfield and Jack Wishere looks like he has been playing international football for years. But we need more and with the footballing culture of this country tending to treat flair players with suspicion it is going to be difficult to develop these players at anywhere except the very top clubs.

[/quote]

I agree with this. While the influx of foreign players and coaches during the Premiership era has undoubtedly resulted in better attitudes to fitness and nutrition, there is still an underlying aversion to "fancy dan" football in our national psyche. I would personally rather poke red hot needles in my eyes than have to watch Stoke on a regular basis, yet they are admired by many people in this country, usually the same ones who denigrate Arsenal for lacking "steel". The debacle against Switzerland resulted in criticism which was primarily aimed, not at a tactical and technical inability to break down a defence, but at a perceived lack of workrate and effort. Ultimately the British ideal would be a hard working, tough tackling "trier" rather than a technically gifted but inconsistent flair player, and until that changes we will always be a second or third rate internaional nation.

The sad thing is that the two things can be combined effectively. Even a cursory study of Barcelona will show that, as well as their ability to keep possession and dictate games, they have an incredible work ethic when they don''t have the ball. We have to find that blend if we are to compete at the top table.

 

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Rather than improve the England team, it would make it less effective. We have tended to do better in international competitions since the influx of foreign players. We failed to even qualify for the World Cup on 1974 and 1978 and 1994. We failed to qualify for the Euro Championship in 1972, 1976, 1984 and of course 2008.

What a good point, England have never had a manager who utilised his own system and not catered for so called World Class Players...over the last 12 years we have always had the same core of players who have not been good enough.

I''m all for playing the best players availible in their position. Like him or not Crouch is more effective for England than Rooney, why do we always play Lampard central then fit in Gerrard on the left..and so on.

It would be so refreshing to bring in a manager who has a system, plan b for when it goes wrong and a manager not scared to drop the likes of Rooney for some games....and a manager who cares not like the manager we have now who just does this for the money and is taking the mick out of the FA.

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When the financial fair play rules come into force, is it likely that there will be fewer overseas players ?  When wages get squeezed will the best go elsewhere ?With regard to the lack of technical skill in players, this could be addressed to an extent if the FA introduced 5 a side competitions at comprehensive school level, and if 5 a side was promoted more in schools generally.  A national competition could enable clubs to find the best youths coming through with decent technical skills.  Kids as young as 12 have no business attempting to cover the distances on an 11 a side pitch.  Fabregas and other Spanish players his age didn''t start playing 11 a side until 14 or 15.  Spain also have many more FIFA qualified coaches to teach kids, our qualified coaches tend to be in the game.Address these problems, and in 10 or 15 years you might have players with the skills to do what Barcelona and the Spanish national team do now.  But I''m not holding my breath.As an aside - quite why the national team are playing 4-4-2 when most clubs seem to play a derivative of 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 escapes me.

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[quote user="Cantiaci Canary"]

I suppose it depends whether you want to have the most exciting domestic league in the world or a top rate international team.

 

One of the joys of the Premier League is the involvement of players from almost every corner of the world. It has attracted players such as Henry, Klinsmann, Bergkamp, Cantona, Kanchelskis, Zola, Crespo, Kinkladze etc who English fans have been so excited to watch in their home stadiums. It will be so fantastic to see Tevez, Drogba, Suarez, Hernandez, Modric, Van Persie, Silva, Nani etc running around at Carrow Road.

 

However, there is no question in my mind that the make up of the Premier League is a significant factor in the demise of the England team. Without their foreign stars (with their superior technique and reading of the game) surrounding them our boys look pale shadows of their ''usual'' selves in England shirts.

 

So, for me, that''s what it boils down to ... and thats why we are guaranteed a thrilling Premier League but a woeful England team - and always will be.   

[/quote]

 

---

 

I''m sure this is true. It is what happened in Italy after world war two, when the big clubs brought in overseas players, and particularly in the star positions. Great for the clubs but the Italian national team (which had won the two World Cups before the war) went into sharp decline. Either didn''t qualify for the finals or did badly (beaten by North Korea) if they did.

 

As to England, I remember we had this debate a year or so ago, and I instanced Kieran Gibbs - who had just made his England debut and was being touted as THE left-back  from them on  - as someone whose career was being held back because of the presence of an overseas player.

 

I was told then that the next season (ie the one we have just had) Gibbs would take over from Gael Clichy. Hasn''t happened. Clichy played 33 League games, while Gibbs racked up just four, with three appearances as a sub. He is nearly 22 now and has started just 13 PL games all told. I know he was held back by injuries, but not this last season, because Wenger played him in the two cup competitions. But when it came to the League Wenger chose Clichy. I have no idea when Gibbs is actually good enough to be England''s left-back, but having an overseas player in the Arsenal squad isn''t helping him.

 

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Is there really a "demise" of the England team? The final poistion of England at World Cups going back from last year is 13, 7, 6, 9, DNQ, 4, 8, 6 DNQ, DNQ, 8, 1, 11, 6, 8.

 

So for World Cups we qualified for our average final poistion is 7th. Obviously last year was a bit of a debacle, but the previous 2 World Cups were pretty much bang on target. One arguement is to say overseas players block young English players'' chances but another is to say it provides greater competition and training for those players - If young players were making it into teams just because they are English it isn''t going to help improve their quality.

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You make a fair point about last years world cup Bethnal - the players we had available for that tournament, Terry, Lampard, Rooney, etc., are good enough to get regular games for the biggest clubs in the Premiership - their heads and hearts just weren''t into it.  Whether that was because Capello isn''t a great man manager in his 2nd language, or whether it was because Terry couldn''t keep it in his trousers, who knows ? 

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

Is there really a "demise" of the England team? The final poistion of England at World Cups going back from last year is 13, 7, 6, 9, DNQ, 4, 8, 6 DNQ, DNQ, 8, 1, 11, 6, 8.

 

So for World Cups we qualified for our average final poistion is 7th. Obviously last year was a bit of a debacle, but the previous 2 World Cups were pretty much bang on target. One arguement is to say overseas players block young English players'' chances but another is to say it provides greater competition and training for those players - If young players were making it into teams just because they are English it isn''t going to help improve their quality.

[/quote]

--

 

Bethnal, that is a fair point. For a supposedly major nation, England''s international record is pitiful. It always amused me when English journalists would describe Spain as the great under-achievers. Yeah, right. As against England''s record of reaching the semi-finals (which is a fair benchmark, I think) of the World Cup only twice and the Euros only twice. There are some comparisons with much smaller countries (the Netherlands, Hungary, Sweden, Uruguay etc) that are pretty embarrassing for any England supporters out there.

 

But that doesn''t detract from the general point that a high proportion of overseas players (and I think the proportion is highest in the PL and in Serie A) will hold back the development of what talented home-grown players there are.

 

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