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mikewalker

People on here continually talking about 4-4-2

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and the mad urgent need to sign ''out-and-out wingers, with pace''

I may be a stubborn old fool but even I can see that 4-4-2 is dead. Everyone plays a variation on 4-5-1 (Think Everton with Cahill behind a striker), 4-3-3 (Chelsea under Mourinho), 4-2-3-1 (Germany and Spain in World Cup).

The name of the modern game is possession, having some complicated haircutted tit bomb up and down the wing only to twot the ball behind for a goal kick or straight into a defenders mekon forehead/goalkeepers hands is no gameplan. Its Keegan-esque gung ho foolishness, was well out of date in 1996 and would see us get slaughtered, giving away possession way too easily.

I get so much more joy out of seeing our midfielders do some one touch shenanigans with their fullback and create a 2 vs 1 than Lee Croft striding down the wing.

Keep the ball, work up the pitch, overload midfield areas, have one striker come short/wide the other go long time, this is what we saw last season and simply put if there were any proper quality wingers out there (Pennant, Etherington, Jarvis or that Johnson at Man City) we won''t afford them or go and bin the Surman/Fox/Crofts/Hoolahan axis of doom to have Jimmy ''First Touch'' Kebe ping balls at the luminous crew behind the River End.

Xabi''s not Sintons.

 

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What I tried and failed to say is that bossing the midfield is what everyone want to do, and our diamond style is perfect for overloading midfield/stretching play. We don''t need wingers just more quality footballers.

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Yeah, I''d go along with most of that. 4-4-2 is outdated and it doesn''t work against the other formations you mentioned because the midfield generally gets overrun- the 4-4-2 favours a more direct approach.It is worth noting that none of the three teams who won promotion from the Championship this season used a 4-4-2, and most of the rest did....

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Anyone who wants to play 4-4-2 needs to read Inverting the Pyramid by Jonathan Wilson.

 

It''s all about having 4 lines rather than 3 lines these days, the updated off-side rule effectively made the pitch longer meaning teams have more space to cover, players getting between the lines have been the most important in recent years - whether it is an midfielder in "the hole" or an anchor midfielder.

 

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with a quick winger, but they need to be played higher up the pitch and not expected to perform defensive duties.

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[quote user="mikewalker"]

and the mad urgent need to sign ''out-and-out wingers, with pace''

I may be a stubborn old fool but even I can see that 4-4-2 is dead. Everyone plays a variation on 4-5-1 (Think Everton with Cahill behind a striker), 4-3-3 (Chelsea under Mourinho), 4-2-3-1 (Germany and Spain in World Cup).

The name of the modern game is possession, having some complicated haircutted tit bomb up and down the wing only to twot the ball behind for a goal kick or straight into a defenders mekon forehead/goalkeepers hands is no gameplan. Its Keegan-esque gung ho foolishness, was well out of date in 1996 and would see us get slaughtered, giving away possession way too easily.

I get so much more joy out of seeing our midfielders do some one touch shenanigans with their fullback and create a 2 vs 1 than Lee Croft striding down the wing.

Keep the ball, work up the pitch, overload midfield areas, have one striker come short/wide the other go long time, this is what we saw last season and simply put if there were any proper quality wingers out there (Pennant, Etherington, Jarvis or that Johnson at Man City) we won''t afford them or go and bin the Surman/Fox/Crofts/Hoolahan axis of doom to have Jimmy ''First Touch'' Kebe ping balls at the luminous crew behind the River End.

Xabi''s not Sintons.

 

[/quote]Seeing as you mentioned Kebe, I thought I would respond given my post on him yesterday.Going up to the Premier league means that we need to have lots of options and if we play one way it will be easier for teams to figure us out tactically (a la Blackpool). We need to have someone who can provide a different option - you have to consider that some of the teams we are going to come up against next year are going to have lots of possession and we may need to play on the break on occassion. This is why having someone like Kebe would be beneficial.

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Anyone else anoyed by the fact that wide players in a 4-4-2 are classed as wingers? They''re not they''re wide midfielders! Wingers play either up with or just behind the striker they are not alligned with midfielders. David Beckham is a wide midfielder whilst Messi is a winger get it right! Anyway, completly agree 4-4-2 is never used by the top sides (ManUre do not use a 4-4-2 they play 4-4-1-1 and everyone who says they do play 4-4-2 are wrong.) If you want pacey dribblers play a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-2-3 or a 4-2-1-3. One of the main reasons for Englands consistent failures on the international stage is the constant use of a 4-4-2 against 3 or 5 man midfields.Rant over.

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[quote user="Gareth"]Anyone else anoyed by the fact that wide players in a 4-4-2 are classed as wingers? They''re not they''re wide midfielders! Wingers play either up with or just behind the striker they are not alligned with midfielders. David Beckham is a wide midfielder whilst Messi is a winger get it right! Anyway, completly agree 4-4-2 is never used by the top sides (ManUre do not use a 4-4-2 they play 4-4-1-1 and everyone who says they do play 4-4-2 are wrong.) If you want pacey dribblers play a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-2-3 or a 4-2-1-3. One of the main reasons for Englands consistent failures on the international stage is the constant use of a 4-4-2 against 3 or 5 man midfields.Rant over.[/quote]Agree about England''s failures, however, Messi is not a winger! ''False number nine'' seems to be the accepted description nowadays.

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[quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"][quote user="Gareth"]Anyone else anoyed by the fact that wide players in a 4-4-2 are classed as wingers? They''re not they''re wide midfielders! Wingers play either up with or just behind the striker they are not alligned with midfielders. David Beckham is a wide midfielder whilst Messi is a winger get it right! Anyway, completly agree 4-4-2 is never used by the top sides (ManUre do not use a 4-4-2 they play 4-4-1-1 and everyone who says they do play 4-4-2 are wrong.) If you want pacey dribblers play a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-2-3 or a 4-2-1-3. One of the main reasons for Englands consistent failures on the international stage is the constant use of a 4-4-2 against 3 or 5 man midfields.Rant over.[/quote]Agree about England''s failures, however, Messi is not a winger! ''False number nine'' seems to be the accepted description nowadays.[/quote]In all honesty, I sholdn''t have tried to give Messi only one role. Like all great players nowadays, he can play many diffirent roles exceedingly well. As I pointed out he does play on the right wing as an inverted winger however he also plays the ''false number nine'' you mentioned and as a trequartista behind the striker.

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Lambert did play 4-4-2 for his first few games until Wes was available) Holt and Cureton upfront with Lappin and McVeigh wide, Smith and Russell in the middle. It solidified things but was easily nullified, see the 0-0 home draw with Walsall for proof of static, lumpen football, no fluidity, movement etc.

Our current setup is very similar to Ancelotti''s Milan 2003-2007. For the deep lying passer Pirlo we have Fox. Gattuso/Crofts ball winners, Seedorf/Surman the continuity man on the left, Wes/Kaka with the Attacking Mid role, Crespo/Holt as the more physical ariel focal point/pure goalscorer up front, Jackson/Shevchenko as the advanced forward who moves left right and centre and has the pace to keep the backline on its toes.

I agree we need various options and a depth to the squad, but for all his qualities (pace, trickery) there''s a reason why MacNamee doesn''t start games. He''s just not as good a footballer as any of our other midfielders.

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I think 442 has its uses, not really as a formation to start with but if you are under pressure it can be useful when playing direct and counter-attacking, but thats not really our way these days.

The problem with wingers these days is that it can mean so many different kinds of players. Look at Swansea they play a 4-2-3-1/4-2-1-2-1 with Sinclair and Dyer on the wings but they''re not traditional wingers, especially Sinclair. Bennett at Brighton is nominally a winger but is just as often playing through the middle. So if those guys are wingers then yes, we don''t have winger and yes they would improve our team. A traditional run up the side and cross winger? no.

I think what''s happened for is that the winger has become more of a forward and the full back has become more of a wingback. Martin and Tierney perform most of the duties you would normally give to a winger whilst also doing a great job in defence.

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[quote user="Essexiled Canary"][quote user="mikewalker"]

and the mad urgent need to sign ''out-and-out wingers, with pace''

I may be a stubborn old fool but even I can see that 4-4-2 is dead. Everyone plays a variation on 4-5-1 (Think Everton with Cahill behind a striker), 4-3-3 (Chelsea under Mourinho), 4-2-3-1 (Germany and Spain in World Cup).

The name of the modern game is possession, having some complicated haircutted tit bomb up and down the wing only to twot the ball behind for a goal kick or straight into a defenders mekon forehead/goalkeepers hands is no gameplan. Its Keegan-esque gung ho foolishness, was well out of date in 1996 and would see us get slaughtered, giving away possession way too easily.

I get so much more joy out of seeing our midfielders do some one touch shenanigans with their fullback and create a 2 vs 1 than Lee Croft striding down the wing.

Keep the ball, work up the pitch, overload midfield areas, have one striker come short/wide the other go long time, this is what we saw last season and simply put if there were any proper quality wingers out there (Pennant, Etherington, Jarvis or that Johnson at Man City) we won''t afford them or go and bin the Surman/Fox/Crofts/Hoolahan axis of doom to have Jimmy ''First Touch'' Kebe ping balls at the luminous crew behind the River End.

Xabi''s not Sintons.

 

[/quote]

Seeing as you mentioned Kebe, I thought I would respond given my post on him yesterday.

Going up to the Premier league means that we need to have lots of options and if we play one way it will be easier for teams to figure us out tactically (a la Blackpool). We need to have someone who can provide a different option - you have to consider that some of the teams we are going to come up against next year are going to have lots of possession and we may need to play on the break on occassion. This is why having someone like Kebe would be beneficial.
[/quote]

 

Who to? Us or the opposition?

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[quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="Essexiled Canary"][quote user="mikewalker"]

and the mad urgent need to sign ''out-and-out wingers, with pace''

I may be a stubborn old fool but even I can see that 4-4-2 is dead. Everyone plays a variation on 4-5-1 (Think Everton with Cahill behind a striker), 4-3-3 (Chelsea under Mourinho), 4-2-3-1 (Germany and Spain in World Cup).

The name of the modern game is possession, having some complicated haircutted tit bomb up and down the wing only to twot the ball behind for a goal kick or straight into a defenders mekon forehead/goalkeepers hands is no gameplan. Its Keegan-esque gung ho foolishness, was well out of date in 1996 and would see us get slaughtered, giving away possession way too easily.

I get so much more joy out of seeing our midfielders do some one touch shenanigans with their fullback and create a 2 vs 1 than Lee Croft striding down the wing.

Keep the ball, work up the pitch, overload midfield areas, have one striker come short/wide the other go long time, this is what we saw last season and simply put if there were any proper quality wingers out there (Pennant, Etherington, Jarvis or that Johnson at Man City) we won''t afford them or go and bin the Surman/Fox/Crofts/Hoolahan axis of doom to have Jimmy ''First Touch'' Kebe ping balls at the luminous crew behind the River End.

Xabi''s not Sintons.

 

[/quote]Seeing as you mentioned Kebe, I thought I would respond given my post on him yesterday.Going up to the Premier league means that we need to have lots of options and if we play one way it will be easier for teams to figure us out tactically (a la Blackpool). We need to have someone who can provide a different option - you have to consider that some of the teams we are going to come up against next year are going to have lots of possession and we may need to play on the break on occassion. This is why having someone like Kebe would be beneficial.[/quote]

 

Who to? Us or the opposition?

[/quote]I get it. You don''t think he would be a good addition. I disagree, but it will be interesting to see how and where he performs next season. I personally think he did enough yesterday for someone to take a chance on him in the Prem - I hope it is us, but I doubt it.

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If we''re to carry on using the diamond then adjustments are going to have to be made. This season the full backs pushing on so far forward and the spreading of the centre backs has left us especially vulnerable on the break. This is a serious issue next season at a far higher level, I however don''t see how we can play the diamond without the full backs bombing on and leaving space.

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[quote user="Canary_on_the Trent"]If we''re to carry on using the diamond then adjustments are going to have to be made. This season the full backs pushing on so far forward and the spreading of the centre backs has left us especially vulnerable on the break. This is a serious issue next season at a far higher level, I however don''t see how we can play the diamond without the full backs bombing on and leaving space.[/quote]The ''correct'' way to play a diamond with attacking full backs is pretty simple in theory. You''re centre backs split to a position that is half-way between a centre back and full back and you''re defensive midfielder plugs up the space left by the split centre backs. Most sides in this country still play with two strikers so you effectivley have a 3v2 situation and most other sides play with only one up front so you have a surplus of defenders. The major threat will come against sides like Chelski who usually play 4-3-3 which may result in the full backs being pinned back leaving the team under-manned upfront.The main issue with Norwich''s diamond is that Fox doesn''t drop back enough and stay there as he often likes to stay on the halfway line where his passing is a great help offensively. I''m sure Lambert notices this and will either tell Fox to drop deeper or sign a new, more defensivly minded, mifielder to play his role.

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