Jump to content
Note to existing users - password reset is required Read more... ×
Sign in to follow this  
nycanary

Cold, harsh light of day

Recommended Posts

AllI of course hope our lads will do well next season.  And nothing would make me happier than seeing this particular team prove the doubters wrong and succeed in the premiership, even without any real top flight experience.But if I had to look at the team and say "here''s a player of definite premiership quality.  a player who can consistently start for some other premiership sides", the list is very thin.For me, there are only two in our squad:  John Ruddy and David Fox.I think Fox has shown he has total class, vision and distribution operating from that role at the base of the diamond.  And Ruddy has shown enough to suggest he can start in the league above us.Outside of that, I dont think we have anyone.  I am I''m going to get beaten up over this but I''m trying to be dispassionate about it.  Russell Martin has had an incredible season.  But is he gonna be able to be able to contain the best next season?  He will certainly have to curtail his actions going forward, which is now an integral part of his game.  Crofts looked off the pace when Wales played England.  Surman COULD cut it but he''s a bit slow.  Holt is big and strong and could get there but the premiership defenders are big, strong and quick.  Jackson had a great end of season but his decision making and coolness under pressure can be a little suspect.  Etc etc.Anyway, I REALLY want to be proven wrong and I will be pulling for the lads to do so.  But I just thought I''d throw this out there and see what people think.  We''ve already over-achieved and we mostly all believe that....so if that''s the case, the leap to the prem should raise this issue.  If we suddenly believe that they can all play in the Prem, then we can''t really say we overachieved, can we.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agree with Fox. Ruddy, not sure.

I think R Martin will do very well next season, he kept Sinclair, Bellamy, Gradel in his pocket during the later stages of the season, and most wingers tend to be very quite when Martin is defending.

Surman is clearly a good player, will have to see if he pans out in the PL.

Holt will clearly make it due to his drive, he might not score 20, but he will make the team work.

Not sure about Crofts, Ward, Teirney.

Wes will if anything do better in the PL as he will get more time on the ball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Could this post not have waited until after the players have been allowed to enjoy a promotion. Our club is not run around individuals what makes us different is we are a team. As individuals most would struggle in the Championship as a team we were promoted. Bet last year you were saying that diamond will never work in the championship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To be fair I think Ruddy will be one that doesn''t shape up to be a prem goalkeeper, too many shots that are directly at him go under his body, also on free-kicks he jumps like he is stuck in cement.

I think we need anothe keeper, shay given perhaps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="nycanary"]All

I of course hope our lads will do well next season.  And nothing would make me happier than seeing this particular team prove the doubters wrong and succeed in the premiership, even without any real top flight experience.

But if I had to look at the team and say "here''s a player of definite premiership quality.  a player who can consistently start for some other premiership sides", the list is very thin.

For me, there are only two in our squad:  John Ruddy and David Fox.

I think Fox has shown he has total class, vision and distribution operating from that role at the base of the diamond.  And Ruddy has shown enough to suggest he can start in the league above us.

Outside of that, I dont think we have anyone. 

I am I''m going to get beaten up over this but I''m trying to be dispassionate about it.  Russell Martin has had an incredible season.  But is he gonna be able to be able to contain the best next season?  He will certainly have to curtail his actions going forward, which is now an integral part of his game.  Crofts looked off the pace when Wales played England.  Surman COULD cut it but he''s a bit slow.  Holt is big and strong and could get there but the premiership defenders are big, strong and quick.  Jackson had a great end of season but his decision making and coolness under pressure can be a little suspect.  Etc etc.

Anyway, I REALLY want to be proven wrong and I will be pulling for the lads to do so.  But I just thought I''d throw this out there and see what people think.  We''ve already over-achieved and we mostly all believe that....so if that''s the case, the leap to the prem should raise this issue.  If we suddenly believe that they can all play in the Prem, then we can''t really say we overachieved, can we.
[/quote]

I think you just need to look at the team as a whole and where we may need to strengthen for the Premiership, it will be tough and watch the boys will be harder with less wins.

NYCanary just get behind the team and I think with Lambert as our manager we will compete in the Premiership.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I trust Paul Lambert to strengthen the team appropriately over the summer, just as he did last year.

 

When we last went up to the Premiership, Nigel Worthington''s problem was that he looked at his team and only saw their weaknesses. Just like you. He did the opposition''s job for them by tearing apart a winning team before they''d even kicked a ball. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Typical, isn''t it.  Have an opinion that''s not popular and everyone has a go.I bet we all thought the 2004 promoted team with Hucks were going to do just fine in the Prem, right?  If they were good enough to win the Championship, they''re good enough to stay in the Prem.  Sound familiar?  Guess we were ALL wrong - myself included.  I LOVE the current team.  And this has been my favorite season as a supporter since I started following the club in 1979.  And it would be simply brilliant if they can stay in the Prem.  But I just have to say that if everyone here was looking at a club other than Norwich getting promoted twice in a row and were to critically evaluate the squad, the responses would be slightly different from the rose-tinted ones I''m seeing here.  That doesn''t mean I don''t love the club, squad or the manager any less than any of you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="nycanary"]Typical, isn''t it.  Have an opinion that''s not popular and everyone has a go.

I bet we all thought the 2004 promoted team with Hucks were going to do just fine in the Prem, right?  If they were good enough to win the Championship, they''re good enough to stay in the Prem.  Sound familiar?  Guess we were ALL wrong - myself included. 

I LOVE the current team.  And this has been my favorite season as a supporter since I started following the club in 1979.  And it would be simply brilliant if they can stay in the Prem.  But I just have to say that if everyone here was looking at a club other than Norwich getting promoted twice in a row and were to critically evaluate the squad, the responses would be slightly different from the rose-tinted ones I''m seeing here. 

That doesn''t mean I don''t love the club, squad or the manager any less than any of you.
[/quote]

 

If the 2004 team had been managed by Paul Lambert it would have stayed up because we would have won at least one away game (and tried to win many more rather than sitting back and hoping for a point) and the manager wouldn''t have stubbornly refused to pick our best team until a few weeks before the end of the season. I suspect he also would not have allowed the board to get away with not sanctioning the signing of a proper striker in the summer.

I like Worthy and he did some great things for our club but we never really gave it a proper go last time we got to the prem and he was out of his depth. I am 100% confident that this time will be very different.

This team doesn''t have a Hucks but what it does have is a large number of highly committed team players and importantly they are all technically very decent on the ball. We will need a bit more physicality in midfield and a bit more pace but with 4 or 5 quality additions in place of the obvious candidates (OTJ, Gill, Askou, Hughes etc) I think we will do fine.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see where you''ve coming from nycanary, but you''re missing the thing that makes the team greater than the sum of its'' mainly championship / league 1 recruited parts - the ethic of the management team.If this season runs anything like last season, some of the bench warmers will be loaned out / moved on to championship teams, and the first 11 will compete with 5 or 6 new signings to make a Premiership first 11.  A lot of where we have got to has to do with the managers'' outlook - "Playing without fear".  Goals in the last 5 minutes (without them we were a mid-table side this season).  Other managers tell their players to head to the corner flag to protect a draw, or stick an extra defender on with 15 minutes left.  Not Lambert, often you''ll get 2 or 3 like for like attacking replacements to run the opposition defence ragged.   Lambert realises that when defenders are tiring is the time to try to win games, goals are more likely in the last 5 minutes of a game than at any other time - but you have to be trying to score them, not protecting a point, to win games.Lambert will look for Premiership standard players (they don''t necessarily have to come from the Premiership to be of that quality) with the ability to play without fear, and bring them into a squad that are already working together very well, which will encourage competition within the squad and will hopefully make us difficult to beat.  Holloways'' Blackpool have shown that it is possible to go to Premiership standard teams with an attacking line-up and get results.  With a bit more discipline at the back, they would already be safe.  Tony Pulis at Stoke has also shown that it is possible to compete in the Premiership as a new team and get a decent position in the league, albeit with an agricultural style of football.  I''d like to think that the squad we currently have, plus a few new arrivals to "help the boys out", will be capable of a top 12 finish next season, bearing in mind that 12 place is currently worth 41 points with 35 games played.  With luck and a following wind, Bolton, Fulham, and Newcastle, Villa, Sunderland, and Birmingham, Blackburn and Blackpool, and the newly promoted teams are teams we will be taking the points from, with anything from games against the top 8 a bonus.  It''s that bottom-half league within the league that you have to be winning, and I am pretty confident that our current side could get points against these teams now, before new players come in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NYC, you''re perfectly entitled to your opinion and this is just the place to air it. I suppose there is an argument for saying we should enjoy the end of the season before we start worrying about staying up, but...

I think when people say ''Premiership class'' they tend to think of the top end - Rooney, Drogba, Ferdinand etc. But we don''t need that. As BBB said, we have to compete with the bottom third, and I reckon Whitbread, Fox, Surman, Crofts, Wes and Holt are all easily good enough at that level. April Jackson is obviously good enough. August-March Jackson isn''t. Less convinced by Ruddy, R Martin and Tierney, who all have something of the journeyman about them if you ask me. Can''t make my mind up about Ward - great on the ball, looks horribly exposed when forwards run at him.

Other thing I''d take issue with is the idea that this team has gone up two divisions. It hasn''t. Only R Martin, Wes and Holt have done that. All the others mentioned above signed this season.

And, like others, the quality of the manager and our team spirit and adventure will count for a lot. The big challenge for Lambert is the one he passed so impressively last summer, signing new players who could improve the team while also fitting into the team''s ethos and togetherness. If he can do that in the Prem, which is much harder given the egos and money involved, then we''ll be absolutely fine.

And I have a feeling it''ll be more fun than last time, too. Not so much pointing at corner flags with 20 minutes to go...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with the argument that it is as a team that NCFC have achieved what they have over the past two seasons, and that it is as a team that they will take on the PL.Afterall, the England team of 66'' was not the best collection of footballers in the world- not even the best collection of ENGLISH footballers in the world. What it was was a team with balance, with each individual working to each others strengths and covering each others weaknesses. Of course, there were some class acts: Bobby Charlton, Gordon Banks etc. But balance was the key!Likewise, Clough''s Nottingham Forest team that achieved so much! Not the best collection of individuals. Nonetheless...I think we have a managment team that realise this and will work over the summer and coming PL season to put this into practice on a bigger stage.Additional thought: I''d like to see how teams (including the big teams) deal with our movement. One criticism you can lay at the premierships door is that teams are suprisingly static. Might be a factor in our favour???Anyway, sorry for the length of the post.Just my thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
agree with a lot of the recent posts.  this is a different mgmt team to the one worthy had back then.  and i think its going to be just brilliant that we''re going to see a fearless approach from lambert''s men next season vs what we''ve had in the past.i think there''s another thread on what we need going on today that speaks to exactly what players we need.  my guess is 6 or so new signings.  for me 2 in starting positions (striker and center back) and 2 pushing hard for starting places (to compete with fox/crofts and surman/hoolahan) and a couple of backups (ruddy and russell martin).  with those signings, i''m hoping we''re good as the one thing we have that is up there with any team in the entire country is work ethic and team spirit.already cant wait for next season.  am going to have to fly over from the states to carrow road to watch a match or two!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NYC I don’t think youre massively wide of the mark - whether youre right around the players involved is open to conjecture but I think in essence youre right. Most of the team that played in the Championship will be no more than bit part players next season

Look at the team that started on Monday night and compare them to those that won League 1 last year. We think that the team is essentially the same - but in truth there were a lot of differences

 

 

01 Ruddy Signed in close season 2010

02 R Martin Played in League 1

06 Whitbread Signed during the 2nd half of the League 1 season

22 Ward Signed in close season 2010

32 Tierney Signed in 2011

07 Crofts Signed in close season 2010

11 Surman Signed in close season 2010

14 Hoolahan Played in League 1

15 Fox Signed in close season 2010

09 Holt Played in League 1

10 Jackson Played in League 1

Substitutes

13 Rudd, League 1 squad

05 Edwards, Loan 2011 only

12 Lansbury, Loan 2011 only

19 Lappin, Played in League 1

24 McNamee, Played in League 1

16 C Martin, Played in League 1

37 Pacheco Loan 2011 only

 

So of the starting 11 less than half were in last seasons squad. I think Lambert will probably have a similar strategy this time round

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"We''ve already over-achieved and we mostly all believe that"

Nonsense

The club set it''s mind to the task in the summer of 2009 - and the players have done much the same most games since mid September 2009.

Players have come and gone since then, as I expect will happen this summer. The same idiotic twaddle was spouted last summer when the constant bleat of ''no proven championship players'' was trotted out with tedious repetition.

The club will have been preparing for promotion since last summer, as it will have been preparing for many other possible eventualities.Players will be brought in, despite the silly claims of not breaking up a winning team. It didn''t affect the team last season and I''m sure it won''t this coming season.

As mentioned above a team is often greater than it''s parts. Many of the parts are in City''s case, off the pitch.

So in reply to the startling revelation by the op that not all of City''s current squad will be up to Premier League requirements. Might I suggest that those tasked with finding players who are up to it, signing them, coaching them and motivating them certainly are up to Premier league standards.

That''s why we are where we are now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Paul"]To be fair I think Ruddy will be one that doesn''t shape up to be a prem goalkeeper.[/quote]To be fair I don''t think Holty or Wes will shape up to be Prem goalkeepers either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agree with City1st one of the better posters on here who actually has some common sense :)

(no offence nycanary!)

You only have to look at how quickly PL and IC adapted the team for the Championship to see they can progress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you''re being a bit harsh but i don''t wholly disagree

There is no-one of obvious automatic Prem quality as there is only 12 Prem League appearances in the whole squad!

I would say Hoolahan, Surman, R Martin, Holt would get into any team/subs of Prem teams apart from top 7-8. Fox possibly.

Blackpool is our model, they have a similar squad to us currently plus Charlie Adam who is a v good player, and they competed for 2/3 of the season only to fall away. If we can strengthen better than them then we could well compete all season ie carry on picking up points to the end which they and Burnley before them couldn''t do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like other posters have said I don''t think it''s right to look at our current players as individuals and say whether you think they are Prem quality or not.  Thats not how our team works now and never will.  Our team is all about being a ''team'' and working hard and having a great spirit, it''s not about having a load of talented individuals who simply play each team off the park each week.  As it goes, if you were to talk about that I think you are right about Fox but not Ruddy.  I think Fox, Hoolahan and Holt are the players who would make it in the Premiership as individuals.

 

I think we will find that we could see about 8 departures and 8 new signings.  Departures will be Gill, OTJ, McNamee, Johnson etc etc and maybe a few on loan.  I think we will also find that just like this season our starting 11 will be totally different with only a few from this season as regular starters.  Players like Ward, Crofts (?) and Tierney (?) could well spend a lot of time on the becnh next season just like Lappin and Korey Smith have done this season.

 

We don''t have to worry about whether we have Prem quality individuals because we will buy players who have quality but who will also fit in to our ''team''.  Like City 1st said, the management team are Prem quality and they will be able to sort out the quality individuals from the not good enough individuals. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We play a Prem.style and have been honing that all season. I believe we are clearly better than when we went up last time and than Blackpool who`ve made a good fist of it this season. Have a think about the very decent teams we`ve totally outplayed this season to feel a bit more positive about things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="zak123"]Agree with Fox. Ruddy, not sure. I think R Martin will do very well next season, he kept Sinclair, Bellamy, Gradel in his pocket during the later stages of the season, and most wingers tend to be very quite when Martin is defending. Surman is clearly a good player, will have to see if he pans out in the PL. Holt will clearly make it due to his drive, he might not score 20, but he will make the team work. Not sure about Crofts, Ward, Teirney. Wes will if anything do better in the PL as he will get more time on the ball.[/quote]

Russell Martin got my vote for POTS - but Max Gradel was the only opposition player to ruffle him at Carrow Road this season!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No reason why Grant Holt can''t replicate Kevin Davies. Also Davies as been called up for England this season would be chuffed for Grant if the happened. I fancy him to get 15-20 goals nxt season. Raw power and strenght are impossible to defend against.

Also is he really worse than Shola Ameobi, Nile Ranger, DJ Campbell, Benjani, Niclas bleeding Bentner, Beckford????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We haven’t ‘over-achieved’ at all – we have fulfilled some of our potential. I must admit I choose to get mildly irritated by people who traipse out clichés like ‘we’re punching above our weight’‘this is a season for mid-table consolidation’ etc etc. Mind you, most average-thinking people DO say things like that don’t they? In which case, thank goodness they are not the people at the helm of our favourite football club!

I’ve said this many times; the current leadership team at Norwich simply do not think like most other people. Over the past two years they have consistently demonstrated some key principles of gaining success. In football – as with life in general – there are certain things we can all do to help ''stack winning chips in our favour’.  David McNally & Paul Lambert are focussed, resilient and they are proven achievers. They finish what they start and they do well because they fully expect to.

I am part of a professional organisation that provides specific training for business and sport in this very field; we’re based locally and deliver all over the UK and overseas too.  People highly value the ‘thinking tools’ we give them!

We have a long-standing working relationship with the club and one member of last season’s NCFC first team squad working alongside us nowadays. We have even delivered several training sessions at Portman Road this season (for selected individuals that is, not ITFC players!).

Whilst this forum is not exactly the place for business networking, should anyone be serious about sourcing ‘Peak Performance’ training for individuals or organisations please feel free to private mail me and I’ll be delighted to share more with you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our coaching staff certainly sem to know how to get the best out of players, witness the re emergence of Jackson, the incredible improvement of R Martin and Fox, the ''back from long term injury'' of Whitbread and Surnam. Which suggests we might get a surprise when Wilbraham finally returns.

As to strength then yes, Holt certainly has it. Watch how he shrugged off the defender for to cross for Jacksons goal against the binners. And it''s a fair point about the other strikers who are plying their trade in the Premier. Jackson is developing into an excellent finisher of the ball. Pretty much all one touch. Something that the faster pace of the Premier will require.

A few things I am certain of. Don''t write off all of the ''suspects'' expected to leave this summer. Our coaches have a knack of getting the best out of players so who knows. Don''t expect to know who we are signing until it''s as good as done and dusted.

Whether we will play the same attacking football, with the same last minute goals will have to be seen. But if we do then expect us to be near the top for the early part of the season, until mid autumn at least (you heard it here first).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This time last season many City fans were sying the same thing about stepping up into the Championship!

This team has a lot of ability but its best assets are team ethic, bottle and desire!

We''ve finished above teams with players that most would say man to man our better than our team but we have done they haven''t!

Lambert will do what he done last summer - tweak the side with a number of players that will improve the suad while getting rid of the lesser lights!

I think this side is with a few additions is capable of at least surviving in next seasons Premiership!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Before Fergie, Man Utd used to be full of gifted individuals who could never really play as a team (and certainly not consistently enough to win a league).

Cloughie''s teams were the polar opposite. Some very good players, but distinctly lacking in stars. Yet Derby and Forest somehow just about "stayed up" under him.

Yes, the Premier League is different from the old Division One, but the management skills required are still paramount.

There also seems to be a common misconception that the whole of the Premier League is vastly better than the Championship.

It''s not. That''s why Blackpool finished 6th in the Champ, and are just about surviving in the Prem.

West Brom and Newcastle are doing fine, and again lack star players (Carroll excepted, and he''s gone anyway).

And our manager and coaching staff look every inch better than what''s at last season''s promotion trio.

So I expect evolution not revolution with the close season signings, and certainly no major surgery. Just a few arrivals to strengthen the squad (to replace a few of those who have barely figured in the team this year).

Provided that Lambert stays for the season (which I think he will), I fully expect us to survive next year, and likely surprise a few people along the way, including the OP, with a finish comfortably above the relegation area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×