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TheGoogler

Feel sorry for Pacheco

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Just to clarify here- Liverpool signed Pacheco on a free. Someone has hijacked his Wiki page and said that they paid £5 for him (doesn''t even say £5m, it says £5).I''m not sure how much he would cost, but I doubt it would be any more than a couple of million. The issue is whether he would want to come here if Liverpool want to sell him, as I reckon bigger clubs than us, more than likely Spanish clubs, would be interested. I doubt those clubs would want ot take him loan though, so that may be the best option for us...

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[quote user="John"][quote user="John"][quote user="Gingerpele"]You can''t really think he will be that cheap AJ....[/quote]If AJ has at least half a mind (which i believe he does), he''ll stick by his judgement.Seems sound to me.[/quote]In saying that, i''d like to understand the reasoning behind your estimation of a £7/8 million price tag?You can''t really think he will be that expensive Gingerpele....[/quote]

Yes have you seen the price of transfers recently?

That isn''t based on what he should be worth, its based on how much strikers are being sold for. I know last day January transfers are generally higher, but still if Andy Carroll is even worth £20 million, then Pacheco is worth more than £2 million.... Quite a bit more.

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And if £2 million was enough, why haven''t we agreed a deal yet? We quite clearly should be able to spend £2 million on a player of his quality, in a position (well he can play two well enough which is a huge bonus, especially since one is Hoolahan''s position) the deal should already be done.

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[quote user="chicken"]Several misstakes made here.

Firstly reading too much into things. He has gone back to Liverpool who still have games left in this season. Right now they have three world class strikers of which one normally sits on the bench.

Just like one of our players coming back from loan for the last two games of the season, they would have to be in terrific form to get into the team or injuries to other players as you would not want to disrupt the balance and form of a team that is doing well. He will know for sure what his future is once the season is finished.

I should imagine another loan.

Also its not a great idea to compare transfers because you never know exactly what is involved. Barnett had another year on his contract I think so they would have been looking at selling him this summer anyway. He wasn''t that rated by them and they obviously paid an inflated price for him at that time. Just like Wolves paid £1.5million for Shackell who is now a lower championship defender.[/quote]The Barnett example (just as the reference to Huckerby) was principally used to illustrate how the great majority are frequently wrong on these kind of issues, where the polar opposite came to fruition.Any correlation between the two transfers themselves was left open to interpretation.The crux of the matter obviously lays at the foot of both the parent club and the player. How much the player is valued by the parent club, and what the player wishes to do in light of that. All we need to be sure of is that our interest remains persistant; if we do, we''re likely to get the best possible deal we can out of this scenario, if there is one to be made.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]And if £2 million was enough, why haven''t we agreed a deal yet? We quite clearly should be able to spend £2 million on a player of his quality, in a position (well he can play two well enough which is a huge bonus, especially since one is Hoolahan''s position) the deal should already be done.[/quote]See what I said. Even if we offered £2m and it is accepted, there would be bigger clubs sniffing around, so Dani wouldn''t just join us straight away.Also, who says Liverpool wants to sell him, and not just loan him out?

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[quote user="Gingerpele"][quote user="John"][quote user="John"][quote

user="Gingerpele"]You can''t really think he will be that cheap

AJ....[/quote]If AJ has at least half a mind (which i believe he does), he''ll stick by his judgement.Seems sound to me.[/quote]In saying that, i''d like to understand the reasoning behind your estimation of a £7/8 million price tag?You can''t really think he will be that expensive Gingerpele....[/quote]

Yes

have you seen the price of transfers recently?

That isn''t based on what he should be worth, its based on how much

strikers are being sold for. I know last day January transfers are

generally higher, but still if Andy Carroll is even worth £20 million,

then Pacheco is worth more than £2 million.... Quite a bit more.[/quote]The gravitas of the Carroll situation could have well pulled up the market. But, in doing that you''re failing to account for the situation itself, in which even an inflated market wouldn''t indicate toward a price much in excess of £2 million.Solely using the Caroll saga as any sort of reference point could constitute any range of bizarre prices.[quote user="Gingerpele"]And if £2 million was enough, why haven''t we agreed a deal yet? We quite clearly should be able to spend £2 million on a player of his quality, in a position (well he can play two well enough which is a huge bonus, especially since one is Hoolahan''s position) the deal should already be done.[/quote]Rather presumptuous Gingerpele, surely?He''s a classy player, but at the same time he spent a lot of time on the bench here. There''s not all that much evidence to suggest he''s a priority of ours, or that our management consider ourselves in urgent need of him.And how many deals in excess of £1 million have been agreed so far? Can''t be many. The final whistle has only just called a halt to our season (and their season isn''t even finished yet).

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If there are any other clubs wanting him, and/or Liverlose want to keep him, then i can''t see him going for less than £4 million at the very least. He''s a young player with obvious talent, that they haven''t really tested at a higher level yet.

He was a runner up with spain in the under 19s tournament, also getting the most goals.

He''s spanish, which at the moment, young Spanish players must surely be worth a bit more?

I really just can''t see why anyone thinks he will be going for £2 million, i will be happy to admit i''m wrong at a later date. But all those things added up make him worth more than £2 million, and these days players go for more than there worth.

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I think there''s a chance we''ll be able to get him permanently, but we''ll probably have to wait until the end of the transfer window to see what Liverpool do. If they spend as much as some are talking about Pacheco could be pushed well down the ladder there, and while he is still young, its not unusual for players to be established in the first team by his age.

It''ll come down to whether he wants a move I reckon, doubt he''d cost more than 2-3m, upfront at least.

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The value of Pacheco or any footballer also needs to factor his worth to the club (Charlie Adam) and the differences he can make, alongside things such as having time to replace him (imo a big factor in the Andy Caroll price) and not just the attributes of him as a footballer and his future potential.

If Liverpool see Pacheco as the next Fabragas we can pretty much rule out a sale and the best we can hope for is a loan, if however, they think hes unlikely to hit such levels then this is when other things can come into play, e.g shall we wait on him, loan him out again and see how he develops? or do we need to use him and a couple others to raise an extra 2-3 million each to help finance a big summer signing, they may feel its worth the risk of letting a potential star go a bit under the asking price in order to help sign someone at the top of their game now - Liverpool have had a strong end to the season and many believe its a good chance for a title push next year, so imo this could happen

So for that reason I think any of the prices, from the £2 million mentioned to the figures Gingepele came out with, are all possible.

I will also add that while I think Pacheco was great for us and would love to see him back next year, there were certainly a couple of games were he was, whilst maybe not poor, at least lacking sharpness, Swansea being one, another one the Derby home game (I think, not 100%) so Liverpool may look at those and think the premier league stage at the heights they are going to be hitting next season may not be right for him just now (remember they are also bleeding in a few youngsters atm, Spearing & jonjo Shelvey amongst others.)

What ever happens, im sure Lambert will get the right guys for the job in, whether they include the likes of Pacheco and Lansbury or not, but after the passion both of those showed for this club (especially Pacheco on twitter) and the contribution they made to our promotion, I will follow both of their careers and wish the very best for them.

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So your £7/8 Million as quickly dropped to 4 Million?

Rafa Van Der Vaart was sold for £8 Million. Experience La Liga winner, World Cup Runner up.

Pachecho as proved nothing as of yet. Obviously deemed not good enough for Liverpool and will probably be surplus to requirments.

You say he is only 20 but is that young in top class football these days? I dont think so, look at Rooney, Rodwell, Ramsey, Wilshire, Walcott, Carroll if you are good enough, you are old enough. Same applies to Lansbury too.

£2 Million is a fair and decent price and he may prove to be a bargain but Liverpool cannot demand more than that.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]If there are any other clubs wanting him, and/or Liverlose want to keep him, then i can''t see him going for less than £4 million at the very least. He''s a young player with obvious talent, that they haven''t really tested at a higher level yet.

He was a runner up with spain in the under 19s tournament, also getting the most goals.

He''s spanish, which at the moment, young Spanish players must surely be worth a bit more?

I really just can''t see why anyone thinks he will be going for £2 million, i will be happy to admit i''m wrong at a later date. But all those things added up make him worth more than £2 million, and these days players go for more than there worth.[/quote]Fairly young, but untested at the age of 20, and the talent you speak of doesn''t seem to have made much of an impact upon the management staff at Merseyside. His Spanish heritage may have been made more fashionable by the World Cup, but like the Caroll example, the association seems far too vague when it comes to business. As for his success in the U19 tournament, Maceo Rigters won the Golden Boot in the U21 European Championship; what has he done since? It doesn''t seem enough to me to constitute a £5 million+ price tage.We may have to agree to differ on this; i can''t see us allying our perception of the facts behind this.

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Last summer Man Utd paid £6m for Javier Hernandez, to suggest that a player that has been at a Premier League club for 4 years and not been given a chance by 3 successive managers is worth any where near that is crazy talk. Just because he''s at one of the ''Big 4'' doesn''t instantly mean he''s worth big money.

I''m not sure we can read much in to him not being allowed to train with the 1st team on his return to Liverpool, but he did sound a little upset by it on Twitter. I''d love to see him back next year and if Liverpool decide that he doesn''t have a future there then I''d be suprised if he''d cost more than £1.5-£2.5M.

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I''m only guessing, which is all any of us can do really, that Kenny doesn''t have him in Liverpools plans.

Younger players than Dani have made the breakthrough already, and apparently Liverpool are planning more big name signings in the summer.

My guess is that Dani will be sold back to a Spanish club, rather than to a rival premier team, just in case his career does take off. His reputation in Spain is probably even higher in Spain than here or at Liverpool, so they would probably get a higher transfer fee.

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I felt Pacheco was great against Scunthorpe and Coventry. However, in games at Swansea and Watford, when we needed to scrap more for the points, I felt he got a little lost.

I would take him on loan again, but would be reluctant to sign him up permanently.

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This whole ''if your good enough your old enough'' things, while true, doesn''t mean that players who are a bit older aren''t useless.... It could mean they haven''t developed as early/quickly, or there not quite as good, or need some proper first team football to develop.

Just because Pacheco is 20, and hasn''t made it in the Liverlose first team, doesn''t mean he can''t.

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[quote user="CDMullins"]sign him up, quick![/quote]

This. I also think if we can get him for a decent price, he will be worth a fortune in years to go. Equally that''s a reason we probably won''t be able to afford him the first place but one can always dream...

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TBH I don''t think Kenny will want to sell him, he might not be in KK''s first team plans just yet but IMO he''s got an future with Liverpool.  Maybe another season long loan.

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[quote user="WeAreYellows49"]TBH I don''t think Kenny will want to sell him, he might not be in KK''s first team plans just yet but IMO he''s got an future with Liverpool.  Maybe another season long loan.[/quote]

KK?!?! Shame on you WAY!!! There''s only one King for City fans and that''s the King of Spain!!

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[quote user="Stevo"][quote user="WeAreYellows49"]TBH I don''t think Kenny will want to sell him, he might not be in KK''s first team plans just yet but IMO he''s got an future with Liverpool.  Maybe another season long loan.[/quote] KK?!?! Shame on you WAY!!! There''s only one King for City fans and that''s the King of Spain!![/quote]

 

No there are two King Lambert and King of Spain, so shame on you [:P]

Look when I was a young lass I had a major crush on King Kenny. [:)]

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I can see at least 4 players in the current Liverpool setup being preferred to Dani in his main position, which combined with the suggestion that they are looking to further expand the squad over the summer, and I see his chances as being extremely limited - particularly when on his return, he''s being left out of TRAINING???Price wise it''s horribly difficult to call accurately, as Liverpool are likely to want to recoup a large percentage of their initial outlay back, I''d suggest at least 60% or more, meaning that we''re looking at probably around the 3 mil mark. This will then be further altered by their view on his potential, number of potential suitors, the players view and a number of other variables.This could then drop the price down to around 1.5/2 mil, or similarly increase it to close to the original 5 mil that Liverpool paid.I''d suggest that 3 mil or less should be a definite look, but we need to be very wary of paying over the odds, as although he looked well whilst here, this is the Prem, and he''s not a guaranteed starter for us, so would we like to pay a healthy chunk of our transfer budget on a player who''s not a likely regular starter? The potential is very clearly there, the question is - can he live up to it (and at what price)...

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Again the corrupt loan system raises its ugly head.

It will not be possible to buy Dani because he is still an unknown quantity. It could be that his development stops and he fades away as many young players have in the past (we had some .... look at the Jarvis boys) or it may be that he develops into a major player (Wilshire after a year long loan at Bolton). This being the case with the loan system as it is Liverpool are never going to sell him when they can get him developed, trained, coached, paid and exposed by other clubs whilst, if he succeeds, raising his value way beyond our reach. The loan system is not there for the likes of us, or Dani, it is there for the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal Manchester United, Chelsea and all the other top clubs.

As a thought - what would happen to all the players who are presently loaned out if either the loan system was scrapped or lower clubs wised up and took no players on loan? Where would those players play? What would Arsenal do with an extra 17 professionals at their club? Surely lower clubs would then have the opportunity of signing good younger players with the chance of developing them for themselves instead of other people and possibly selling them on at a later date to bring them in much needed finance.

The loan system is no longer there for the needy only there for the greedy.

 

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"]I can see at least 4 players in the current Liverpool setup being preferred to Dani in his main position, which combined with the suggestion that they are looking to further expand the squad over the summer, and I see his chances as being extremely limited - particularly when on his return, he''s being left out of TRAINING???Price wise it''s horribly difficult to call accurately, as Liverpool are likely to want to recoup a large percentage of their initial outlay back, I''d suggest at least 60% or more, meaning that we''re looking at probably around the 3 mil mark. This will then be further altered by their view on his potential, number of potential suitors, the players view and a number of other variables.This could then drop the price down to around 1.5/2 mil, or similarly increase it to close to the original 5 mil that Liverpool paid.I''d suggest that 3 mil or less should be a definite look, but we need to be very wary of paying over the odds, as although he looked well whilst here, this is the Prem, and he''s not a guaranteed starter for us, so would we like to pay a healthy chunk of our transfer budget on a player who''s not a likely regular starter? The potential is very clearly there, the question is - can he live up to it (and at what price)...[/quote]Like the Young Ones said, and as Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm pointed out, it would seem he wasn''t initially bought by Liverpool for a transfer fee.

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[quote user="John"]Like the Young Ones said, and as Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm pointed out, it would seem he wasn''t initially bought by Liverpool for a transfer fee.[/quote]I may be wrong here, but I understood that although he was technically ''free'', Barcelona had sued over this and the compensation for the costs was then technically the transfer fee.They did exactly the same thing over Fran Merida when Arsenal ''signed'' him, and got £2.2 million in compensation, and apparently the same course of action was due to be followed regarding Pacheco.However, I can''t find solid information either way on this, other than an old article about the Merida situation:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/arsenal/article2633746.eceEither way, I still can''t see him being a cheap release...

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="John"]Like the Young Ones said, and as Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm pointed out, it would seem he wasn''t initially bought by Liverpool for a transfer fee.[/quote]I may be wrong here, but I understood that although he was technically ''free'', Barcelona had sued over this and the compensation for the costs was then technically the transfer fee.They did exactly the same thing over Fran Merida when Arsenal ''signed'' him, and got £2.2 million in compensation, and apparently the same course of action was due to be followed regarding Pacheco.However, I can''t find solid information either way on this, other than an old article about the Merida situation:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/arsenal/article2633746.eceEither way, I still can''t see him being a cheap release...[/quote]Using the powers of Google, i haven''t found any incriment of evidence suggesting they furthered that particular lawsuit against Pacheco, let alone won £5 million off him, as they had won £2.2 million from Merida.Said in Lehmans terms, it seems Merida simply didn''t sign the professional contract at 17 as was agreed when he was 14. Is there any evidence of Pacheco having broken a similar agreement? I can''t find any, only token paper speculation injected into a 3 and-a-half year old story to make it a bit more plump from what i can gather.That''s another thing, it''s 3 and-a-half years old. Such a massive outgoing, especially considering the manic economic past few years Liverpool have suffered, would surely have been covered or noted in that time? A reasonably financially stable Arsenal side didn''t manage to hide a more minor lawsuit against one of it''s players from the press; how could Liverpool have done so with a more major lawsuit against Pacheco, considering the circumstances? Seems like something the tabloids would be more than happy to jump on, with Liverpool having been in turmoil at the time.Seems dubious, at best, to me.

I personally see little reason why the price can''t be as low as £1 million, depending on the effects of outside factors.

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