NCFC Shares (A little help!)

[@jayncfc 0]

Within the last few months I bought 4 £1 shares from the club, I wanted them because it means I have a little piece of the club and makes a fairly unique souvenir of the team that I love! I don''t however really know what this entitles me to, or how much it was really worth. I paid a lot more than £4 for it LOL. Can anyone help me out please?

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="jayncfc"]Within the last few months I bought 4 £1 shares from the club, I wanted them because it means I have a little piece of the club and makes a fairly unique souvenir of the team that I love! I don''t however really know what this entitles me to, or how much it was really worth. I paid a lot more than £4 for it LOL. Can anyone help me out please?
[/quote]

 

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These are probably Ordinary shares, which have a nominal price of £1, but whose current price (set by the club) is £30. They do not pay a dividend (an annual amount). Nor are they traded on a stock market, so their price does not go up and down in the way that shares in - say - BP or Vodafone do. The club might alter the price in the future (up or down) but realistically what you have bought is of sentimental value more than anything.

 

Assuming you register your ownership with the club you will receive financial information (such as the annual accounts) from the club, and can vote at the annual meeting, although that is symbolic, given the much larger holdings of Smith and Jones and Foulger.

 

If - unlikely but possible - these are Preference shares then you do potentially receive an annual dividend, but with only four shares it would probably not be enough to retire on.

 

[@jayncfc 0]

Thank you ever so much for this info, these are ordinary shares so no no dividends with them. The shares have my name and address on them so I assume they are already registered to me and just sit back and wait for the accounts and invite to the meeting?Thanks once again for your help!

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="jayncfc"]Thank you ever so much for this info, these are ordinary shares so no no dividends with them. The shares have my name and address on them so I assume they are already registered to me and just sit back and wait for the accounts and invite to the meeting?

Thanks once again for your help!
[/quote]

 

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Not at all. It made a change from following the rerun of the War of the Roses which is continuing on at least two other threads...

 

Having your name and address on the shares probably means they have been registered (by whoever sold them to you as a change of ownership thing) but you might want to check with the club just in case, or in any event if you prefer to have information sent to your email address, assuming that has not yet been registered.

 

[Bobzilla 132]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

These are probably Ordinary shares, which have a nominal price of £1, but whose current price (set by the club) is £30. They do not pay a dividend (an annual amount). Nor are they traded on a stock market, so their price does not go up and down in the way that shares in - say - BP or Vodafone do. The club might alter the price in the future (up or down) but realistically what you have bought is of sentimental value more than anything.

 Assuming you register your ownership with the club you will receive financial information (such as the annual accounts) from the club, and can vote at the annual meeting, although that is symbolic, given the much larger holdings of Smith and Jones and Foulger.

 If - unlikely but possible - these are Preference shares then you do potentially receive an annual dividend, but with only four shares it would probably not be enough to retire on.[/quote]

Not quite true.  Whilst the shares are not listed, they can be actively traded. Therefore, the price at which they can be transferred is set by the two parties to the transfer and not the club.  The management has said that they value the club such that they will not issue shares to a new investor (and the majority shareholders will not sell their stake) for less than £30 per share, but this is not the market value of their shares or your - it is more of a reflection of the market value of control of the club.  I would be very surprised if you could sell your shares (all of them) for £30, let alone £30 per share, as your holding is very inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.  Even if every single small shareholder clubbed together, I doubt they could get £30 per share, as it is the goodwill of the club, and not any rights as a shareholder, that gives the small shareholders (mainly through NCISA) any say whatsoever in the running of the club at shareholder level.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="Bobzilla"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

These are probably Ordinary shares, which have a nominal price of £1, but whose current price (set by the club) is £30. They do not pay a dividend (an annual amount). Nor are they traded on a stock market, so their price does not go up and down in the way that shares in - say - BP or Vodafone do. The club might alter the price in the future (up or down) but realistically what you have bought is of sentimental value more than anything.

 Assuming you register your ownership with the club you will receive financial information (such as the annual accounts) from the club, and can vote at the annual meeting, although that is symbolic, given the much larger holdings of Smith and Jones and Foulger.

 If - unlikely but possible - these are Preference shares then you do potentially receive an annual dividend, but with only four shares it would probably not be enough to retire on.[/quote]

Not quite true.  Whilst the shares are not listed, they can be actively traded. Therefore, the price at which they can be transferred is set by the two parties to the transfer and not the club.  The management has said that they value the club such that they will not issue shares to a new investor (and the majority shareholders will not sell their stake) for less than £30 per share, but this is not the market value of their shares or your - it is more of a reflection of the market value of control of the club.  I would be very surprised if you could sell your shares (all of them) for £30, let alone £30 per share, as your holding is very inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.  Even if every single small shareholder clubbed together, I doubt they could get £30 per share, as it is the goodwill of the club, and not any rights as a shareholder, that gives the small shareholders (mainly through NCISA) any say whatsoever in the running of the club at shareholder level.

[/quote]

 

Read what I wrote.

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="jayncfc"]Within the last few months I bought 4 £1 shares from the club, I wanted them because it means I have a little piece of the club and makes a fairly unique souvenir of the team that I love! I don''t however really know what this entitles me to, or how much it was really worth. I paid a lot more than £4 for it LOL. Can anyone help me out please? [/quote]I explained how they work when i sold them to you James!I spent the money on drink and cheap whores.... I then wasted the rest of it...

[William Darby 0]

Does anyone want to buy an acre of the moon off me for £30? I''ll give you a certificate with your name and address on it stating your ownership.

[San Miguel 0]

just to add to this: i believe the ordinary shares can pay dividends if there are available trading profits to distribute, however the company members can agree instead to accumulate the profits in the company and strengthen it further. 

i cannot recall any football club, even the Plc''s, paying any dividends in the past few years given the state of football finances. 

[GinjaCanary 0]

I got my ordinary shares from the initial issue from the club.

One perk is free membership (normally £15) every year for life and reduced price of £5(currently) per year for super-membership (normally £20).

It''s worth having the free membership for the discount you get at the Canary shop and for ticket allocations.

Check with the club ticket office (0844 826 1902) to see if you are entitled too - it may have only been an offer granted at the original issue [8-)]

[Alex Moss 2,165]

James, this surely must make you a ''joint minority shareholder''?. I think you should pump some more money into the transfer kitty ;)

[Bill 1,788]

Some further info on here -

http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/NewsDetails/0,,10355~256464,00.html

Ordinary shares did used to have a few priviliges/rights attached to the, with under the new regime have sadly been withdrawn

The ones I can recollect are (there maybe others)

The right to throw cushions on the pitch

A 20% discount on any rosette bought at one of the ''stalls'' just over the bridge

Elbow patches re-upholstered at Pilch''s for half the price in the close season

A small complimentary glass of sherry at the last home game before Xmas (no prizes for guessing where that all goes now)

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="GinjaCanary"]

I got my ordinary shares from the initial issue from the club.

One perk is free membership (normally £15) every year for life and reduced price of £5(currently) per year for super-membership (normally £20).

It''s worth having the free membership for the discount you get at the Canary shop and for ticket allocations.

Check with the club ticket office (0844 826 1902) to see if you are entitled too - it may have only been an offer granted at the original issue [8-)]

[/quote]

Well I can remember when Season Ticket Holders and Shareholders had first option on Cup Tickets before they went on general sale. At the time the Season Tickets were books with yellow tickets for first team games and green tickets for reserve games. I think I''m right in saying that there were only season tickets in the old Main Stand. The rest of the ground was terracing and I don''t think you could get ST''s for that. I maybe wrong though. There were also loads fewer Shareholders back then. My shares probably date back to the 50''s though.

 

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="Bobzilla"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

These are probably Ordinary shares, which have a nominal price of £1, but whose current price (set by the club) is £30. They do not pay a dividend (an annual amount). Nor are they traded on a stock market, so their price does not go up and down in the way that shares in - say - BP or Vodafone do. The club might alter the price in the future (up or down) but realistically what you have bought is of sentimental value more than anything.

 Assuming you register your ownership with the club you will receive financial information (such as the annual accounts) from the club, and can vote at the annual meeting, although that is symbolic, given the much larger holdings of Smith and Jones and Foulger.

 If - unlikely but possible - these are Preference shares then you do potentially receive an annual dividend, but with only four shares it would probably not be enough to retire on.[/quote]

Not quite true.  Whilst the shares are not listed, they can be actively traded. Therefore, the price at which they can be transferred is set by the two parties to the transfer and not the club.  The management has said that they value the club such that they will not issue shares to a new investor (and the majority shareholders will not sell their stake) for less than £30 per share, but this is not the market value of their shares or your - it is more of a reflection of the market value of control of the club.  I would be very surprised if you could sell your shares (all of them) for £30, let alone £30 per share, as your holding is very inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.  Even if every single small shareholder clubbed together, I doubt they could get £30 per share, as it is the goodwill of the club, and not any rights as a shareholder, that gives the small shareholders (mainly through NCISA) any say whatsoever in the running of the club at shareholder level.

[/quote]

 

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Bobzilla, to expand on my earlier, rather minimalist reply...

 

You are right that Norwich City shares can be traded, although how "actively" is a question. And of course anyone can buy/sell anything at any price, however absurdly low. But I very much doubt the price set by the club is an irrelevancy here; I''m sure it is used as a guide to negotiations between buyer and seller.

 

As to your belief that the actual price any small investor would get being much lower than £30, I think you''re missing a point. If I try to sell a jeweller a ring or whatever that has great sentimental value but little intrinsic value, I''ll get offered (and will have to accept) the intrinsic-value price,becausethe sentimental value disappears.

 

But, with someone selling a small number of City shares, that sentimental value (which made the person get them in the first place) carries on, because the buyer will be acquiring them for sentimental reasons. You said yourself that such small tranches of shares are totally ineffective, and yet people - as we have seen on this thread - do buy and sell them. That simply isn''t going to happen very often if people always offer - say £5 - for a share that cost £30. In other words, the buyers acknowledge the sentimental value (to themselves and to the seller) of what they are buying and factor that into the price.

 

As to £30 representing the market value of control of the club, that is quite true. And emphasises what I have said for years - namely that the shares are arguably underpriced, because the value that puts on the club - around £18m - is too low.

 

[Bill 1,788]

"around £18m - is too low."

Depends if player wages are seen as a liability or their registration is an asset.

Your figure of £18m would value the club at around £38m, which with Premier League status (money) might be a bit low.

Someone with a better mathematical mind might tell us if Foulgers purchase of 80,000 shares at a cost of £2m - which decreased Delia/Wyn''s share of the club by 8% would point to a figure of £22m

And why did his shares cost £25 not the £30 they were raised to a little while back ?

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="City1st"]"around £18m - is too low." Depends if player wages are seen as a liability or their registration is an asset. Your figure of £18m would value the club at around £38m, which with Premier League status (money) might be a bit low. Someone with a better mathematical mind might tell us if Foulgers purchase of 80,000 shares at a cost of £2m - which decreased Delia/Wyn''s share of the club by 8% would point to a figure of £22m And why did his shares cost £25 not the £30 they were raised to a little while back ?[/quote]

 

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Bobzilla and I were talking about control of the plc via shares. My figure of £18m - actually £18.48m - represents what someone taking over the plc at £30 a share would have to pay to acquire every share. Which is a possibility under UK company law. Whether Premier League status might make us more attractive is a question, but then if so that only backs up my view that the share price is too low.

 

As to...

 

Someone with a better mathematical mind might tell us if Foulgers purchase of 80,000 shares at a cost of £2m - which decreased Delia/Wyn''s share of the club by 8% would point to a figure of £22m

 

...I confess I''m not quite sure what you saying. That Foulger''s share purchase should make me raise my £18m estimate to £22m? If, so, no. I had already included the Foulger purchase, which raised the figure for a total shareholding from £16m to that £18.48m figure. And the Foulger purchase did not reduce Smith and Jones''s share by 8 per cent. It reduced it by eight percentage points, or 13 per cent.

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="City1st"]And why did his shares cost £25 not the £30 they were raised to a little while back ?[/quote]

Maybe £25 is the new selling price for ordinary shares issued by NCFC Plc and not £30.

 

[TIL 1010 4,718]

[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="City1st"]And why did his shares cost £25 not the £30 they were raised to a little while back ?[/quote]

Maybe £25 is the new selling price for ordinary shares issued by NCFC Plc and not £30.

 

[/quote]

You mean you don''t know Tangie? Tut,tut.[:$]

[Dave 0]

I got my 4 shares as a present from my nan and as shes no longer with us they have even more sentimental value, i would never sell!!!

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="City1st"]And why did his shares cost £25 not the £30 they were raised to a little while back ?[/quote]

Maybe £25 is the new selling price for ordinary shares issued by NCFC Plc and not £30.

 

[/quote]

 

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I did make some gentle private inquiries about this at the time without getting a definitive answer, The explanation may actually be laughably simple. That if you divide £2m (which presumably is what Foulger decided he could afford to spend) by £30 you end up with an awkward number (66,666.666 recurring) number of shares. Whereas £2m divided by £25 get you the the nice round figure of 80,000.

 

Whatever the explanation, in practice it doesn''t really matter. The end result was that the club transfer coffers were boosted by £2m and the shareholding of a longtime Smith and Jones ally on the board was significantly strengthened. It also shows that when it comes to big share transactions that £30 a share figure is still relevant as a guide, even though Foulger paid slightly less.

 

[T 190]

unfortunately looking at the Guardian article below that is a drop in the ocean compared to the average of 120m that the premier league clubs have been susidised by. Unless we find an extremely rich benefactor or subsidies are stopped it is very diificult to see NCFC remaining a Premier League club.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="T"]unfortunately looking at the Guardian article below that is a drop in the ocean compared to the average of 120m that the premier league clubs have been susidised by. Unless we find an extremely rich benefactor or subsidies are stopped it is very diificult to see NCFC remaining a Premier League club.[/quote]

 

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T, I haven''t trawled through the Guardian stuff yet but I suspect it will be hard to argue against that pessimism. There is an interesting quote from Bowkett from a year or so ago about cementing our place in the Premier League which backs that up, but which seems to have been forgotten recently, amidst the euphoria of two promotions and the first part of the seven-year plan (ie getting to the PL the first time as opposed to staying there) being ahead of schedule:


"If we are to make a sustained bid for a position in the Premiership we clearly will need an injection of new funds. This may mean new ownership - something I know the current owners are fully aligned to."

 

 

[T 190]

It makes for very sober reading. It shows that financially depite all the nonsense written on here over the years about we should be a premiership club we are not. The only club next season in a financially comparable position are probably West Brom and perhaps Swansea if they get promoted. That is not to say we can not stay up as West Brom have shown but financially we are in the relegation positions. As McNally pointed out we need 35,000 crowds to be financially self-sustaining and competitive in the premier league. It maybe that there are a few other clubs who are looking to cap the subsidies but it is going to be tough. Delia was right you need to be a billionaire to compete and financially we are liitle old Norwich.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="T"]It makes for very sober reading. It shows that financially depite all the nonsense written on here over the years about we should be a premiership club we are not. The only club next season in a financially comparable position are probably West Brom and perhaps Swansea if they get promoted. That is not to say we can not stay up as West Brom have shown but financially we are in the relegation positions. As McNally pointed out we need 35,000 crowds to be financially self-sustaining and competitive in the premier league. It maybe that there are a few other clubs who are looking to cap the subsidies but it is going to be tough. Delia was right you need to be a billionaire to compete and financially we are liitle old Norwich.[/quote]

 

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T, at the risk of a touch of immodesty, that was one of the main points I was making in my post a few weeks ago on the social and economic changes in English football since the war.

 

[T 190]

PC and a very good piece it was too putting our position into context. What the information shows is that there not surprisingly a very close correlation between the wages you are able to afford to pay and your league position with the notable exceptions that West Ham have woefully underperformed and West Brom have overperformed otherwise the league position very closes corresponds to what you can spend which puts us very much in the relegation zone. West Brom are the only example who have got to and stayed in the Premier League based on their own income which shows how tough it is but that in can be done in exceptional circumstances.