QPR Points Deduction

[Sim086 0]

It seems to me that the whole QPR points deduction scenario is one coloured by uncertainty about what the implications would if a points deduction were imposed and to that end, depending on which camp you''re in, whether you''re an optimist or pessimist, or whether you are prone to clutching at straws will determine how you view the scenario.

Most people, I think sensibly, have adopted the bury the head in the sand philosophy and will wait and see with everyone committing to "getting as many points as we can".

Before our game with QPR on Saturday the BBC were reporting that they "understood" that QPR will ultimately be fined and not face a points deduction, and indeed the QPR spin machine has been engaging in a full on assault since the charges were brought to push the message that they would not be getting a points deduction.

I must confess to have only taking a passing interest in the QPR story when it broke in March, but as we reach the climax of the season my interest was piqued and I have spent several hours researching the allegations, reading the FA website, reading news reports and reading blog reports of several fan websites including our own, QPR''s and Crystal Palace''s who''s fans have taken great interest in the plight of their local rivals, particularly after their own points deduction last season.

My conclusions should give QPR fans real concern and should only lead to one possible outcome, and are as follows:

1. The charges faced by QPR are extremely serious and are fundamentally two-fold. That they broke third party player ownership rules that were clearly established and made clear to all clubs after the Tevez affair, and that (in my view more seriously) they then attempted to cover up this breach in October 2010 by submitting falsified documents to the FA.
2. Alot of people compare the QPR situation to West Ham''s with Tevez, however when charged West Ham held their hands up immediately and many feel this helped them avoid a points deduction, plus there was never any real suggestion of attempted fraud, ultimately it was found that they had broken the rules but, lets say, they had perhaps been naive of the rules. QPR on the other hand have refuted the claims the FA have brought (which as we have seen with Rooney recently doesn''t go down well with the FA), and we have the added issue of an attempted fraud.
3. This fraud element moves this (in my view) into a very different scenario and one which people haven''t suggested as a comparison, but here goes 1990 Swindon Town. If you''re not old enough to remember Swindon won promotion from what became the Championship to what would become the Premier League via the play-offs but were found guilty of making illegal payments to players and a few weeks later were relegated two divisions by the FA this was later reduced to a one division relegation and they found themselves back in the Championship.
4. It is this precedent that I feel will mean that QPR will face a points deduction at least.
5. Many people have said that the FA have screwed up by delaying the decision until the last week of the season, I think this is entirely deliberate and is ultimately the right way to have handled this - consider the Swindon example from 1990. The charges against Swindon were identified well before the end of season playoffs but the FA sensibly allowed the season to run its course with all teams trying their best. Some might say it was cruel to Swindon fans to let them experience promotion however had they lost the playoffs presumably they would have been relegated to what became League One, instead of back to the Championship i.e the faced a one division relegation as their penalty regardless of how they finished up. I think the FA are using this as a precedent, to give no indication of a points deduction so that all teams play to their potential without bringing the integrity of this Championship season into question. QPR may need to gain promotion to the Premier League in order that they are relegated back to the Championship and not League One as with the Swindon case.
6. Consider if QPR had been given a 10 point, 30 point or even a relegation as a punishment announced in March. How would this have affected their own players approach to remaining matches and what impact would that have had on the points earned by the teams they later played who could have had an unfair advantage playing against a team that had psychologically imploded. Far more sensible to delay any announcement so that everyone assumes no points will be deducted, so the chasing pack give it their all and assume that 3rd place misses auto-promotion, and 7th place misses the play-offs. This would ensure that no one can have any complaints of unfair advantage when a decision is made.
7. Also if a relegation is the penalty imposed then if this had been announced in March it would have meant QPR would have had to gain promotion to the Premier League to ensure they stayed in the Championship. This would clearly be an intolerable position to put them in at that time or indeed for the other clubs so the FA, by delaying the decision, have ensured the integrity of the season, and also giving a massive hidden clue that a points deduction at least is guaranteed. Consider the alternative, if it was just a fine then impose it now, why wait?
8. Points deductions are imposed for far less serious offences. A club going into administration, which mostly happens due to mismanagement and not fraud guarantees a 10 point deduction. Luton Town were deducted 10 points for illegal agent payments and a further 20 points for issues around their administration status. This effectively relegated them out of the Football League! QPR should be looking at a minimum 10 point penalty plus an additional penalty for attempting to deceive the FA. The treatment of Luton Town demonstrates that the FA will impose the rules ruthlessly regardless of the implications to the punished club. Hereford and Torquay were deducted 3 points and 1 point respectively for each fielding an illegible player in their match on 1st February. This was the day after the transfer window closed and basically resulted from clerical errors in the form filling process of players signed in the last few hours of the transfer window. So a cock up, not fraud, but resulted in points being docked. If QPR don''t get a points deduction for what they have done then it will fly in the face of the precedent set down to all other clubs.
9. In summary then I believe QPR will face something like a 30 point penalty deduction, as that is the scale of the seriousness of the offences, which assuming they fill one of the top two slots will equate to a relegation. All this talk of legal cases are a smoke screen. The FA have QPR bang to rights and determining the penalty is all that needs to be agreed. They are going to take a very dim view of the attempt to deceive them, as they did with Luton Town.
10. A 30 point deduction would place QPR out of even the play off mix, allowing for the playoffs to proceed unhindered

[Sim086 0]

btw meant to add copied from cardiff website, thought was an interesting point

[zak123 0]

Seems a bit optimistic. The comparisons to Swindon, seem slightly invalid. However this does say that QPR should definitely get points deducted in the case.

[Jack Flash 13]

A very interesting piece. Putting myself in the position of a QPR fan, I would be bricking it, yet in all the reports and comments you see no reference to this case. Is that classic heads in sand, or just desperately hoping that the whole thing just goes away.

[djc 0]

At present, 10 points deduction will still keep them within the play-off positions, so wouldnt affect the overall outcome of the 7th placed team at the end of the season.

[ricardo 7,345]

[quote user="simo86"]Before our game with QPR on Saturday the BBC were reporting that they "understood" that QPR will ultimately be fined and not face a points deduction, and indeed the QPR spin machine has been engaging in a full on assault since the charges were brought to push the message that they would not be getting a points deduction.[/quote]Since the hearing won''t start until next week and QPR have not yet been found guilty, how the hell do the BBC have any idea what will happen?

[Tim Allman 1]

Might have been posted before (and if so apols to the board police), this thread is an interesting read on a Cardiff message board. Castle Blue seems very clued up about the whole thing. Make of it what you will.

 

http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43062#p398562

 

[paul moy 235]

The OP is repeating mainly what I have said on similar threads over the past few weeks, and it''s interesting that somebody at last agrees that the reason to delay the judgement was because of the seriousness of the offences alleged, and simply to allow the season to complete fairly before the possible elimination of QPR completely from the promotion scenario by the FA. Get your bets on Norwich for the title and Cardiff for second.     

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="Tim Allman"]

Might have been posted before (and if so apols to the board police), this thread is an interesting read on a Cardiff message board. Castle Blue seems very clued up about the whole thing. Make of it what you will.

 

http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43062#p398562

 

[/quote]

.. and now a Cardiff fan also agrees with me on the ineligible player scenario, which a QPR poster on here stated was not relevant because QPR were not charged with it in the seven counts put forward by the FA. As I said weeks ago, if proven, this could mean relegation to Div 1.   

[alysha 0]

I am also in the camp who believes that it would have been unfair to dock QPR points before the season had finished, as who is to know if their remaining games would play out the same, had they of known that they wouldn''t of been fighting for promotion and the title. Teams have been docked points for fielding inelligible players in the past, even after one of the clubs realised this and notified the FA themselves, after the player had only played one game! If a team gets a point deduction for this, then I should sure hope that common sense prevails and that QPR get a hefty points deduction as not only have they been feilding an inelligible player, but if found guilty of the charges, it appears that they knowingly submitted false documents to cover this up! QPR must recieve a points deduction, what sort of precedent does it set if they don''t? It''s ok for a team to break the rules, then cover it up by comitting fraud and still go up as Champions?

[macclesfield canary 0]

I know a few have said they wouldn''t like to see us go up as champions due to qprs points deduction but I wouldn''t mind as my EW bat on us getting promoted will be a lot more if we get 1st I wonder if the bookies would try wriggle out of the bet if that happened kind of like a rule 4 in the horse racing world??

[OTBC 0]

The best thing to do is seal our own promotion, something we''re very much in charge of. Let the QPR fall out, if there is any, and there are no guarantees, affect and tar everyone else.

[Hooleyfan 0]

Thanks for the discussion guys! I for one had lost my way with this case and had dismissed it as not having any relevance to us due to the belief that a points deduction was off the menu. Whether optimistic or not, you make a good case for wider optimism that this could be an end of season bombshell.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="macclesfield canary"]I know a few have said they wouldn''t like to see us go up as champions due to qprs points deduction but I wouldn''t mind as my EW bat on us getting promoted will be a lot more if we get 1st I wonder if the bookies would try wriggle out of the bet if that happened kind of like a rule 4 in the horse racing world??[/quote]

If a winning horse is disqualified, the horse that comes second wins... simples. [:D]

 

[NMTD 0]

I have thought for a long time, since this became a possibility that finishing second would be the perfect position.

Reasons being that if QPR don''t get docked points, whoever finishes 3rd and 7th will probably take the decision to the courts as their is so much money involved. I bet preparations have already taken place at Carrow Road for this eventuality.

If they do get docked points QPR may refuse to play their last fixture against Leeds pending an appeal which could throw a spanner into the playoff process.

In both situations, the legals won''t get sorted very quickly so the league will be in chaos for all teams in contention EXCEPT for the team finishing second, as they would go up in either situation.

This gives that team a destinct advantage in knowing their fate for sure, and allows them to enter the transfer market before the rest, although there would be issues should that team be targeting any players in the top 6 or 7 of The Championship.

Its going to be a very interesting fortnight!

 

[ricardo 7,345]

[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="Tim Allman"]

Might have been posted before (and if so apols to the board police), this thread is an interesting read on a Cardiff message board. Castle Blue seems very clued up about the whole thing. Make of it what you will.

 

http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43062#p398562

 

[/quote]

.. and now a Cardiff fan also agrees with me on the ineligible player scenario, which a QPR poster on here stated was not relevant because QPR were not charged with it in the seven counts put forward by the FA. As I said weeks ago, if proven, this could mean relegation to Div 1.   

[/quote]Sounds like this guy, Castle Blue, knows what hes talking about.The people who own QPR are hardly a reputable bunch and thats why the fans are worried. After the punishment handed out to Hereford and Torquay for a quite minor administrative error, you would think it unlikely that QPR will get off with only a fine.

[macclesfield canary 0]

I know a few have said they wouldn''t like to see us go up as champions due to qprs points deduction but I wouldn''t mind as my EW bat on us getting promoted will be a lot more if we get 1st I wonder if the bookies would try wriggle out of the bet if that happened kind of like a rule 4 in the horse racing world??

[The Voice Of Reason 0]

I thought why would I defer a punishment announcement til May 6?

Either the punishment will be so small it won''t have any impact OR

The punishment will be directly related to how many points QPR have at the end of season, thereby having total control over which division they will play in the following season.

Either way we need to win two games, we are in control.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="Tim Allman"]

Might have been posted before (and if so apols to the board police), this thread is an interesting read on a Cardiff message board. Castle Blue seems very clued up about the whole thing. Make of it what you will.

 

http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43062#p398562

 

[/quote]

.. and now a Cardiff fan also agrees with me on the ineligible player scenario, which a QPR poster on here stated was not relevant because QPR were not charged with it in the seven counts put forward by the FA. As I said weeks ago, if proven, this could mean relegation to Div 1.   

[/quote]

Sounds like this guy, Castle Blue, knows what hes talking about.

The people who own QPR are hardly a reputable bunch and thats why the fans are worried.

After the punishment handed out to Hereford and Torquay for a quite minor administrative error, you would think it unlikely that QPR will get off with only a fine.
[/quote]

Castle Blue has opened my eyes Ricardo.

[quote user="Castle Blue"]

FL rules allow for a 3 point deduction for each game the player appeared in (39 matches in 2009-2010) and 6 matches during 2010-2011 although the 3rd party issue was not fully resolved until January 2011 so there may be more games this season.

[/quote]

There''s certainly food for thought there! Does anyone know how many points QPR won in those 6 matches?

 

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="macclesfield canary"]I know a few have said they wouldn''t like to see us go up as champions due to qprs points deduction but I wouldn''t mind as my EW bat on us getting promoted will be a lot more if we get 1st I wonder if the bookies would try wriggle out of the bet if that happened kind of like a rule 4 in the horse racing world??[/quote]

Deja vu, again.... LOL

[Guest]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Castle Blue"]

FL rules allow for a 3 point deduction for each game the player appeared in (39 matches in 2009-2010) and 6 matches during 2010-2011 although the 3rd party issue was not fully resolved until January 2011 so there may be more games this season.[/quote]

There''s certainly food for thought there! Does anyone know how many points QPR won in those 6 matches?

[/quote]From what I''ve read, they won 5 and drew 1, gathering 16 points. In the recent Hereford/Torquay case, I believe (off the top of my head) the rules were:3 points deducted for each game the player in question was involved, and the club involved won OR drew1 point deducted for each game the player in question was involved, and the club involved lostSo that must be an 18 point deduction right there, if Faurlin is proven to have been inelligible?

[ricardo 7,345]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="Tim Allman"]

Might have been posted before (and if so apols to the board police), this thread is an interesting read on a Cardiff message board. Castle Blue seems very clued up about the whole thing. Make of it what you will.

 

http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43062#p398562

 

[/quote]

.. and now a Cardiff fan also agrees with me on the ineligible player scenario, which a QPR poster on here stated was not relevant because QPR were not charged with it in the seven counts put forward by the FA. As I said weeks ago, if proven, this could mean relegation to Div 1.   

[/quote]Sounds like this guy, Castle Blue, knows what hes talking about.The people who own QPR are hardly a reputable bunch and thats why the fans are worried. After the punishment handed out to Hereford and Torquay for a quite minor administrative error, you would think it unlikely that QPR will get off with only a fine.[/quote]

Castle Blue has opened my eyes Ricardo.

[quote user="Castle Blue"]

FL rules allow for a 3 point deduction for each game the player appeared in (39 matches in 2009-2010) and 6 matches during 2010-2011 although the 3rd party issue was not fully resolved until January 2011 so there may be more games this season.[/quote]

There''s certainly food for thought there! Does anyone know how many points QPR won in those 6 matches?

 

[/quote]I think you can take it as 18 points Nigel. Torquay got deducted a point from a game they lost so I don''t think it matters what your results were.If this guy Castleblue is genuine then it looks very much like QPR won''t be in the PREM.He also says QPR can''t appeal to the Law Courts because the Tevez affair was chucked out as being nothing to do with them. It seems the FA is the only and final arbiter.

[Lambert is King 0]

[quote user="NMTD"]

I have thought for a long time, since this became a possibility that finishing second would be the perfect position.

Reasons being that if QPR don''t get docked points, whoever finishes 3rd and 7th will probably take the decision to the courts as their is so much money involved. I bet preparations have already taken place at Carrow Road for this eventuality.

If they do get docked points QPR may refuse to play their last fixture against Leeds pending an appeal which could throw a spanner into the playoff process.

In both situations, the legals won''t get sorted very quickly so the league will be in chaos for all teams in contention EXCEPT for the team finishing second, as they would go up in either situation.

This gives that team a destinct advantage in knowing their fate for sure, and allows them to enter the transfer market before the rest, although there would be issues should that team be targeting any players in the top 6 or 7 of The Championship.

Its going to be a very interesting fortnight!

 

[/quote]

They got round this fairly easily with Luton. Their options were sign this document to say you will never appeal and we will deduct 18 points ( the irregularities not administration ) or if you do not you will be thrown out of the league and down to the whatever league it was. Also if you remember with WHU and Sheff Utd SU did not win an appeal as this was not allowed they were awarded the money due to points not being deducted by a normal court or sports court but not the FA. Should QPR be deducted a serious number of points who will back them ? nobody in top 7 and possibly not the team finishing 3rd from bottom.

We must all remember how Colins own thoughts on this have suddenly changed - when it was WHU he explained how they had to be deducted points and even says this messed up his career as he would not have left Sheff Utd. Strange now the boot is on the other foot he suddenly changes his opinion. Maybe he should be called back to court to explain why this situation is different.

 

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="Northluck C."][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Castle Blue"]

FL rules allow for a 3 point deduction for each game the player appeared in (39 matches in 2009-2010) and 6 matches during 2010-2011 although the 3rd party issue was not fully resolved until January 2011 so there may be more games this season.

[/quote]

There''s certainly food for thought there! Does anyone know how many points QPR won in those 6 matches?

[/quote]

From what I''ve read, they won 5 and drew 1, gathering 16 points. In the recent Hereford/Torquay case, I believe (off the top of my head) the rules were:

3 points deducted for each game the player in question was involved, and the club involved won OR drew
1 point deducted for each game the player in question was involved, and the club involved lost

So that must be an 18 point deduction right there, if Faurlin is proven to have been inelligible?
[/quote]

If he is proven to be ineligible then he was also ineligible for the whole previous season and that means that they should have been playing in Div 1 this season due to that ensuing points deduction. For that reason, the FA could relegate them this season to Div 1.  

[bloodwagon 0]

Just reading the Cardiff MB someone come out with ..........A Quick Question for you all ...

If Hereford were docked 3 Points for registering a player on 31st January at 2:30pm instead of 12 Noon ...

then how many points do you think QPR are going to be docked for ...

having a Player owned by a 3rd Party; Using an Unregistered Agent; Not

being able to account for where the £3.5M Transfer Fee has gone;

Witholding this Info from FA & FL on the player''s initial

Registration; Playing a Not Properly Registered Player in 6 Games (this

season) in which they gained 16 Points; and Covering up the Facts with

False Documents???So it does seem there in the mire big time !!

[priceyrice 123]

I have been in the camp that QPR will face a huge point penalty for a while, after doing my research into it, i have to say it doesn''t look like there is any other possible outcome from the precedents which have been set from similar cases. I don''t quite know how the appeal process will work but i am sure QPR will do all they can to pro-long things, screwing other teams over if they can.Another thing i noticed was Neil Warnock''s interview on the football league show, don''t know if it means anything but sounded a bit bizare. Basically he said we need to concede 13 or something goals in the next couple of games to be knocked out of the top 2, the reporter then asks so ur confident u will go up automatically and Warnock replies i''m confident we wont concede 13 goals. This stuck out a bit to me, maybe he is worried? Or maybe, and more probable, is that i am reading too much into what was said.Anyway like others have said, if we finish 2nd we don''t need to worry about any of this and can then enjoy the surprise of being moved up to first and another championship title to our name- It will make the end of season celebrations that much sweeter!!

[Suffolk exile 0]

Well I can explain that one. QPR are 13 GD better off then Cardiff, Cardiff can only draw level on points after Sat. So the talk about letting in 13 goals is infact wrong as Cardiff will get a better GD through winning 2 games but still no conspiracy here.

[paul moy 235]

Yes, I think you were reading too much into that. It was just his way of saying that they can''t be caught by Cardiff.

[Europe_93 11]

I read a lot more in to Warnock''s comments that Norwich must no some one at the football league. He will have been well enough informed to know why we played Ipswich on the Thursday, he is just trying to build pressure. Personally, I believe the reason for the delay in announcing is just to cut down the time for appeal, etc, and as has been stated to ensure all games are to be played as competitively as possible. If QPR don''t turn up against Leeds, they will simply lose 3 points, end of.

[priceyrice 123]

Yeah i''m sure you are right. Think i got my hopes up again about this whole affair after reading the cardiff forum- i hope the castleblue isn''t making up some old tosh, seems like pothers on the board find him a reliable source.I doubt Warnock even really knows what''s going on, i wonder if they do lose points and miss out on going up, whether Neil will stay or go. I can imagine him getting proper peeved off and walking out on the club through frustration and distrust of the owners- he is a man with a lot of integrity (in my opinion) and i can''t see him staying if they are found guilty, espicially after the uproar he was causing over Hammers situation.