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Snakepit Ric

Stadium expansion ?

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[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]Certainly something about 800 extra seats, which I recall came from the club, extra seats in the Jarrold and infill in front of the lower part of the hotel. There was a comment which said that based on the footprint of the ground, stands etc there should be the ability to increase by 800 without significant disruption, or something along those lines.
[/quote]

Thanks.

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 theres quite a gap between the front row of the South stand and the concourse, easily enough for another row of seats i think.

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Some people are forgetting something. If you knock down the City Stand where are you going to put the supporters while the new stand is being built?

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"Some people are forgetting something ................"

"Where do we put those fans who wil have to be displaced during the building work ? "

about a dozen posts back in this thread

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For a start nearly everyone including myself, other fans and the likes of Peter Rogers, Joe Ferrari and other staff who some fans seem to think are the gospel, don''t know the exact plans of the club although its fun speculating!

What I know for sure is -

Two years ago at the AGM when in League 1, Alan Bowkett said that the current stadium could be increased by 2-3000 without building new stands or extensions to current stands.

This was before last summers 1000 capacity increase which was done by reorganising seating in the River End upper tier, 2 new rows at the front of the River End lower tier, 1 new row in front of both the City stand and Jarold and a new row at the back of the Barclay upper tier.

A while back Mcnally was on a BBC programme where he said that hes looking at putting another 1000 on the capacity this summer, without new builds. Where?

Its likely the Barclay lower tier can have another couple of rows added to the front if it like the River End did. This would leave about 6-700 remaining of Mcnallys recent 1000 increase estimate. Where would these be -

A Jarold stand extension coming round in front of the Hotel would be a new build so thats ruled out?

Last summer the club surprised everyone with where they managed to put the extra seating so I''m sure they''ll surprise us again, although its difficult to see where in the current stands extra seating could be put other than the front of the Barclay. Cause surely if more rows could of been put in where they did last summer they''d done it then. Or was the cost the reason why more rows wern''t put in?

At the last AGM, this season, Mcnally said the club were aiming at getting the ground capacity to over 35,000 when it was financially viable to do so!

Bowkett also added that the City stand was the obvious area where capacity can be increased and this could be done different ways -

The current (way, way too small) City stand has always had the foundations to take another tier but while Bowkett said this remains an option, he thinks it would probably be better to just knock it down and build a much bigger newer stand with better facilities.

The Hotel corner is an interesting one. If you look at the Jarold stand, a lot of the stand is offices and corporate areas built onto the back of it. It looks to me like the Jarold seating design and concourse behind could be extended in front of the Hotel but the office space couldn''t. This would be expensive but would probably put 1500 to 2000 on the capacity and would serve as the new away fans area with more seating available for home fans in the Jarold. How would the club go about compensating the Hotel for all the rooms that would lose their pitch view?

As for a Jarold stand upper tier, who knows?

Some say it can be done while others say it can''t. Surely with all the space behind it building an upper tier on this stand would be an obvious route?

If as some say the Jarold stand hasn''t been built with the foundations to take another tier of seating, could new foundations be piled behind the exising stand to take the new tier?

I''ve been to Ibrox where a few years back they added an extra tier to their main stand which was built in the 1920''s. I''m pretty certain that when Rangers built this main stand in the 20''s they wern''t thinking that from the 1990''s onwards all seaters would be compulsory and therefore Rangers would require extensions in order to maintain a big enough capcity. This indicates that even if the Jarold stand hasn''t been built with foundations to take an upper tier, it still would be possible to build an upper tier with new foundations?

Personally, if I was in charge, I''d go for extending the Jarold stand in front of the Hotel if we stay up next season then building an upper tier for the Jarold stand the summer after that if we stayed up. This would ensure that capacity wouldn''t drop during building work which would be the case if the current City stand was knocked down.

Then if the ATT''s warranted further expansion I''d rebuild the City stand.

Anyway any new builds or extensions won''t happen until next summer at the earliest which would be in the event of us lasting more than one season in the Premiership!

The problem for the club in modern times is that 3 sides of our ground were built when we were getting average 12-15,000 crowds in the top flight so the size of the stands was deemed big enough for the club at the time. Since the Worthy revolution of 10-11 years ago we''ve acquried another 10,000 fans from somewhere and look like we can get even more when the ground capacity is increased. I''m sure if the City, River End and Barclay stands were being built now then they''d of each been made at least 2000 bigger!

I''m of the opinion that Norwich could get 35,000+ for big games in the Premiership, 30,000 regularly and even in the Championship we could get 30,000+ crowds for some games if challenging at the top of the League!

I''m just glad that Mcnally can see this as well and is ignoring all the "little ole Norwich" urban myths that we''ve always been tagged with!

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Good post. Most of us want to see the management avoid the mistakes of the past promotion and invest in the playing staff to ensure we stay in the Premiership this time. The need for greater ambition about the stadium, however, still seems clear.

Unlike the unnecessarily wasteful expenditure of previous regimes, it should be recognised that investing in capacity expansion is a legitimate reason for spending our enhanced revenue and not being overly focused upon paying down all of the current debt. The enhanced asset value and increased ability to earn both ticket and merchandising revenue for years to come is vital to sustain us as a Premiership club given we do not have wealthy owners like so many Premiership clubs.

The evidence of recent years, of full houses or close to them, even when the team was in lower leagues or performing poorly is quite different to most clubs. A significant rise in capacity would also facilitate the casual fan to attend without planning ahead which has become difficult in modern times. The season ticket cap could be lifted and more differentiated pricing could be employed, perhaps tied in with membership as it was until the last few years, to fill stands for less attractive fixtures or if we are relegated.

Given the limited number of seats possible in front of the hotel, it would be good to know the truth about the Jarrold Stand and its foundations (perhaps a cantilevered approach may work, as suggested above?), since taking the roof off there and putting a second tier on would deliver the most revenue and be relatively simple from an building perspective compared to the City stand ideas. As we have not planned for promotion, we have to guess that this could not happen for the forthcoming season (would we have to re-sumbit the planning application?) even if the Board was willing.

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"Unlike the unnecessarily wasteful expenditure of previous regimes"

As opposed to the necessary wasteful expenditure ?

Perhaps you could enlighten us about this wasteful expenditure

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[quote user="Paul"]At the end of the day we are a business and the prices for casuals and away supporters will go up in line with what is currently being paid on the premiership.

So for all the moaners on here be prepared for casual tickets to be between £35 and £50 for games next season.[/quote]Maybe, but I still find it ridiculous I could go to an England game and get a good seat at Wembley for cheaper than that.

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Interesting to hear people speculating about what crowds we could get if we did establish ourselves in the Premiership. I remember a conversation I had with Andrew Cullen the last time we were in the Premier League when we played Aston Villa at home. He told me that we could easily have sold 35,000 tickets for that game and that for the Arsenal game a few weeks before we could easily have sold over 40,000.

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Just to comment on a point by grantroederdisaster regarding the City Stand.

The building of a stand that small was a major error. Indeed there had been plans for an even smaller capacity until Jimmy Jones complained. There were comments made at the time and I think the board had some fall outs about it.

It looks now as it did then, a modern stand for a Vauxhall Conference side and for me always has spoilt the whole look of the ground from the inside.

I do know that when we went up with Worthington the plan was to eventually build a second tier on the City Stand because of the room allowed by Carrow Road. There was also talk of making the Jarrold stand the main stand.

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Where would the money have come from to build a bigger stand ? My understanding is that insurance companies pay to replace what is lost. The attendances at the time would have also played a part in determining it''s size.

As to it being the City stand it was renamed the Geoffrey Watling stand. Odd how the happy clappies will gleefully refer to the River End and the South Stand by their sponsors names yet won''t use a club legend''s name when refering to the Main stand.

How long before Aviva City FC ?

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This could be utter rubbish here, which i personally believe it is, but my mates dad works for some builders who said the club have got plans to build an extra tier on top of the city stand this summer

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[quote user="City1st"]

As to it being the City stand it was renamed the Geoffrey Watling stand. [/quote]The official name is the Geoffry Watling City Stand.

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[quote user="City1st"]Where would the money have come from to build a bigger stand ? My understanding is that insurance companies pay to replace what is lost. The attendances at the time would have also played a part in determining it''s size. As to it being the City stand it was renamed the Geoffrey Watling stand. Odd how the happy clappies will gleefully refer to the River End and the South Stand by their sponsors names yet won''t use a club legend''s name when refering to the Main stand. How long before Aviva City FC ?[/quote]

 

Ah so that''s how you tell a happy clappie from a proper fan, thanks for clearing that up,

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Thirsty Lizard"]Interesting to hear people speculating about what crowds we could get if we did establish ourselves in the Premiership. I remember a conversation I had with Andrew Cullen the last time we were in the Premier League when we played Aston Villa at home. He told me that we could easily have sold 35,000 tickets for that game and that for the Arsenal game a few weeks before we could easily have sold over 40,000.

Doesn''t surprise me!

Many people seem to think we''ve only got 25,000 fans!

The recent home game against Scunthorpe saw a crowd of 26512 atend of which 377 were away fans!

This means that 26,135 fans present were in the home end. Now add in another couple of thousand away fans from a big club and that comes to 28,135. Then consider that we have 5000 super members and not all of them would have been present at the Scunny game and then how many members have we got?

After that their are many people who will only come out of the woodwork when Norwich are in the top flight and then it becomes aparent that a capacity of 30,000+ certainly wouldn''t be too big for the club!

I know that the club said that they could of averaged over 30,000 for every home game in our last Premiership campaign!

Its also claimed that for the UEFA cup 3rd round tie against Inter Milan in 1993 the club had 50,000 applications for tickets!

The need for a 30,000+ capacity Carrow Road is obvious and anyone that says we don''t is talking rubbish!

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Thank you City 1st for correcting me on the name of the stand. I''ve only been watching City for 60 years so the old concentration and recall level has diminished.

Doesn''t stop me thinking you are a supercilious old git.

By the way, I have a small boil on the end of my penis, could you tell me what it is and what is the cure?

Thanks

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There is of course another way that we could increase the capacity by 5000 ish, by not needing to expand the stadium......make the lower Barclay and River End terracing again!?.........we can but hope, that those days will return one day !!

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[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]There is of course another way that we could increase the capacity by 5000 ish, by not needing to expand the stadium......make the lower Barclay and River End terracing again!?.........we can but hope, that those days will return one day !![/quote]That wouldnt actually increase it, as even without the seats there would only be the same ammount of people let in as each seat represents the space for one spectator. The days of packing it till they were full are long gone.  I often wish that the barclay was just one massive one tier stand like Liverpools kop! I think the entire stand would be rocking if it was like that rather than just the lower barclay

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Later this month there is a bill being put forward in parliament to allow clubs the choice to have safe standing areas at grounds!

Hillsborough was not caused by terracing and the Taylor report even says this!

Although its obvious the Taylor reoprt has seen facilities at football grounds improvement ten fold in the last 20 years, the all seater rule was a knee jerk reaction and the authorities assumed that fans would accept it and forget about standing. This blatantly isn''t the case cause we''re now 19 years on from when Carrow Road last had proper standing areas!

If standing areas were allowed back in the top 2 Divisions then they would be different from the terraces of the past which lets face it were just a case of squeezing in as many as you could!

Safe standing areas would have the same capacity as the same area would have if seated. Every fan would have their own numbered crush barrier much the same as you do with a seat. Surges wouldn''t be possible cause everyone would have their own crush barrier so wouldn''t be able to move forward.

Those opposed to the return of standing areas always use the "seats are more safer than standing areas arguement but that is so not the case. In fact safe standing areas would increase safety, because standing behind a crush barrier designed for that exact use would be safer than standing behind a seat which can act as a trip if your pushed from behind into the seat.

Modern day ground control measures and health and safety has improved a lot since the 1980''s and these would enable standing areas to return to football grounds without any compromise on safety at all.

If safe standing areas are allowed into football grounds (which if common sense is applyed they will be!) then we''d have an end to all this sit down stand up nonsense, the constant battles with stewards and fans telling others to sit down!

It would be so simple, those who wished to sit wouldn''t go in a safe standing area while those who wished to stand would go in a standing area!

If the finance can be found to pay for stadium alterations, then I think its a no brainer!

And yes it would be great if the Barclay was a big one tier Kop like stand!

I know that its something the club has in the past discussed should we keep on increasing our support. I think at present their looking at the City stand and the Jarold stand as the areas for any capacity increases but if we got a 35-38,000 capacity Carrow Road thorough increasing these stands and then we found we needed more capacity increase then building a new bigger one tier Barclay stand would become an option!

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[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]Thirsty Lizard"]Interesting to hear people speculating about what crowds we could get if we did establish ourselves in the Premiership. I remember a conversation I had with Andrew Cullen the last time we were in the Premier League when we played Aston Villa at home. He told me that we could easily have sold 35,000 tickets for that game and that for the Arsenal game a few weeks before we could easily have sold over 40,000. Doesn''t surprise me! Many people seem to think we''ve only got 25,000 fans! The recent home game against Scunthorpe saw a crowd of 26512 atend of which 377 were away fans! This means that 26,135 fans present were in the home end. Now add in another couple of thousand away fans from a big club and that comes to 28,135. Then consider that we have 5000 super members and not all of them would have been present at the Scunny game and then how many members have we got? After that their are many people who will only come out of the woodwork when Norwich are in the top flight and then it becomes aparent that a capacity of 30,000+ certainly wouldn''t be too big for the club! I know that the club said that they could of averaged over 30,000 for every home game in our last Premiership campaign! Its also claimed that for the UEFA cup 3rd round tie against Inter Milan in 1993 the club had 50,000 applications for tickets!

 

 The need for a 30,000+ capacity Carrow Road is obvious and anyone that says we don''t is talking rubbish!

 

[/quote]

 

I certainly wouldn''t argue against that IF we got established in the Premier League, or if we became a yo-yo club between the top two divisions. However we are not there yet; we may settle back into the Championship. And in terms of this Championship season some statistics:

 


1. This season''s extra seating increased our effective capacity from 25,500 to 26,500.

 

2. We had 11 attendances above that 25,500 figure. In other words in less than half our games did we need those extra seats.

 

3. We had only two capacity attendances  - Ipswich and Scunthorpe.

 

4. Our average attendance this season was 25,386.

 

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If we were averaging 22,000 or under then I''d agree Purple but we averaged over 25,000 and had more than 2 home sell outs this season!

Quite a number of games this season were home sell outs with the only unsold tickets in the away end!

Just cause not every game is a complete sell out doesn''t mean we don''t need extra capacity!

Thats like saying if we inreased capacity to 32,000 and we only averaged 30,500 that would of been a wrong move!

Without last summer 1000 capacity increase we wouldn''t of averaged 25,386 which is the biggest since 1973!

Likewise I''m sure if we increase by a further 1000 this summer which is proposed then we''ll average over 26,000 next season!

To keep on building the club up to a level its capable of being at, investing in stadium capacity increases is essential and thats before considering that our crowd levels indicate that enlarging Carrow Road is a viable propersition!

The club is doing it the right way by doing it little bit by bit which like this season was only noticed by the trained eye. Another factor in increasing capacity is that more season tickets will be available which we will be able to sell in the Premiership!

Anyway any major capcity increases like an upper tier on the Jarold and a new City stand will only take place when we have stayed in the Premiership for more than one season!

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[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]If we were averaging 22,000 or under then I''d agree Purple but we averaged over 25,000 and had more than 2 home sell outs this season! Quite a number of games this season were home sell outs with the only unsold tickets in the away end! Just cause not every game is a complete sell out doesn''t mean we don''t need extra capacity! Thats like saying if we inreased capacity to 32,000 and we only averaged 30,500 that would of been a wrong move! Without last summer 1000 capacity increase we wouldn''t of averaged 25,386 which is the biggest since 1973! Likewise I''m sure if we increase by a further 1000 this summer which is proposed then we''ll average over 26,000 next season! To keep on building the club up to a level its capable of being at, investing in stadium capacity increases is essential and thats before considering that our crowd levels indicate that enlarging Carrow Road is a viable propersition! The club is doing it the right way by doing it little bit by bit which like this season was only noticed by the trained eye. Another factor in increasing capacity is that more season tickets will be available which we will be able to sell in the Premiership! Anyway any major capcity increases like an upper tier on the Jarold and a new City stand will only take place when we have stayed in the Premiership for more than one season![/quote]

 

---

 

I wasn''t actually using those statistics to argue for or against you! As it happens, although I was initially dubious (because of the policy of pricing away fans out of the market) I think the decision to put in those extra seats has obviously been justified. And another 1,000 or so for next season is plainly necessary.

 

 But you can''t just ignore the low numbers of away fans. We may have had various home fan sell-outs but it was still only two overall sell-outs. There was a conscious decision to ramp up the prices for casual fans and that hit away support, particularly among pre-adults. A 16-year-old Cardiff fan, for example, could watch two other games in the Championship for the price of one at Carrow Road. If that policy continues next season (ie, we don''t reinstate the pre-adult casual category) then it has to be assumed that away support at Carrow Road will be affected.

 

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This is an ideal opportunity to attract the "next generation" of fans if only we had room. You will notice as you walk around the city more City shirts on youngsters as it''s now "cool" to support Norwich because the team are premier league. We need to capture this interest from the "younger fans" as these are the future of the club.

I bought my son who at the time was leaning toward Man Utd a half season ticket now 10 years later and having bought a season ticket each year since he is Norwich through and through.

To get the next generation through the doors of FCR we need space!

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"] theres quite a gap between the front row of the South stand and the concourse, easily enough for another row of seats i think.
[/quote]

If it wasn''t for the camera pits in front of the Jarrold stand (which presumably can be moved forward) I should imagine they might be able to get a couple of extra rows of seats in there (subject to the view).

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[quote user="Bury Yellow"]Just to comment on a point by grantroederdisaster regarding the City Stand. The building of a stand that small was a major error. Indeed there had been plans for an even smaller capacity until Jimmy Jones complained. There were comments made at the time and I think the board had some fall outs about it. It looks now as it did then, a modern stand for a Vauxhall Conference side and for me always has spoilt the whole look of the ground from the inside. I do know that when we went up with Worthington the plan was to eventually build a second tier on the City Stand because of the room allowed by Carrow Road. There was also talk of making the Jarrold stand the main stand.[/quote]

The size of the stand may have been constrained by the finances at the time despite the Insurance payout.

Secondly if I remember correctly the whole of the board resigned due to a fall out of how the cotract was awarded but I stand to be corrected if somebody remembers more / correctly, about the situation

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[quote user="Dani Peacock"]This could be utter rubbish here, which i personally believe it is, but my mates dad works for some builders who said the club have got plans to build an extra tier on top of the city stand this summer[/quote]

May be there some confusion and they are talking about something to put in the Hotel corner area re 700? seats???

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