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If only one of them were to be back against Forest, I think that I would prefer it to be Hoolahan than Holt.

 

To  me  Hoolahan has been missed terribly over the last two matches.

 

Hard choice, but what say you?

 

Scratch Head

 

OTBC

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That''s a tough one. I think Wes, Vokes could fill in for Holt but I don''t think we''ve got anyone who can fill in for Wes (as the last two games have shown).And secondly, Scunny were crap but Wes and Dani together looked incredible

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Both Hoolahan and Holt have their advantages, but I think that Hoolahan has a certain chance creating ability that no one else in the team has, so yeah for me Hoolahan over Holt but both would be good !

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I''m a great fan of Hoolahan but the boy Holt has by far the greater influence over the whole club.

As someone else has said on this message board, ''if Holt is out, we''re screwed''! Make no mistake if Holt is not fit for tomorrow, the morale and confidence of the fans and players will be fragile. He is that important from a leadership and goal scoring point of view. Sure another striker can come in and might even score but a Holt type leader is simply not on the books. When the chips are down over the next five games (and possibly the play offs thereafter) we MUST have the leader back. Anyone who endured our Premiership season in 2004/2005 will tell you that we were  leaderless on the pitch after Malky left and was not replaced.       

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It''s not a choice though is it ?  They are either fit or they are not.  You don''t get to pick one of them to be more fit than the other.

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Grant Holt could sit in a deckchair on the half way line and we would play better.... No Holt... no glue.

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So it''s not Lambert it''s Holt behind our success is it? That''s a tad insulting to PL.

If our team morale is that fragile that we can''t do without him for one game then we DON''T deserve prem football.

If the crowd can''t lift those out battling in our colours then we don''t deserve it either.

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[quote user="The Butler"]

So it''s not Lambert it''s Holt behind our success is it? That''s a tad insulting to PL.

If our team morale is that fragile that we can''t do without him for one game then we DON''T deserve prem football.

If the crowd can''t lift those out battling in our colours then we don''t deserve it either.

[/quote]

Fair points although my comment about Holt''s influence was comparing his influence with that of other players (Hoolahan specifically in this instance). Agree with your other points but the fans KNOW (as do the players) how vital Holt is. You only have to listen to PL''s take on Holt to tell how he rates his influence as well.

Don''t get me wrong I have been a critic of Holt this season when he produced some sluggish and below par performances (as late as October) and I dislike (intensely) some of his, er, diving or ''cheating'' even. However, when he puts his mind to it the guy is awesome and his leadership credentials are beyond dispute.     

I have supported the boys since late 1960''s and I can''t think of any other player who has had same level of influence as Holt. Sure we have had other goalscoring (and better) forwards but have any wielded the almost mystical effect this guy does?? Forget someone like Hucks - sizzling player but a ''loner'' and no leader, that''s for sure. Donkey Roberts was similar to Holt but was more limited as a player. I never saw Iwan as manager. With Holt I think he could be a great success in management if he goes down that route. Leadership is everything and Holt has it in bucketfuls.

Put it like this can you honestly see a front line of Vokes / Jackson or Jackson/ Pacheco giving us the win at Ipswich in that red hot atmosphere? I sure can''t! Did you watch Holt closely in the last few minutes at Watford? One moment he was literally on his knees in the Watford box as he could hardly move, the next he almost scored with a header from a corner. It was Roy of the Rovers stuff and if he had buried that header the roof would have come off the away stand!          

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If I had a choice they''d both be playing!

Both are missed but I think just watching Vokes play, a player in a Premiership squad who before this season would of been rated well above Holt, shows just how good Holt has been for us!

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[quote user="The Butler"]

So it''s not Lambert it''s Holt behind our success is it? That''s a tad insulting to PL.

If our team morale is that fragile that we can''t do without him for one game then we DON''T deserve prem football.

If the crowd can''t lift those out battling in our colours then we don''t deserve it either.

[/quote]Come off it Butler...Holt is the glue that holds Lambert''s good but over achieving team together... and has done for two seasons. As for the crowd... they don''t win games... players do.

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[quote user="Yellow Rider"][quote user="The Butler"]

So it''s not Lambert it''s Holt behind our success is it? That''s a tad insulting to PL.

If our team morale is that fragile that we can''t do without him for one game then we DON''T deserve prem football.

If the crowd can''t lift those out battling in our colours then we don''t deserve it either.

[/quote]

Fair points although my comment about Holt''s influence was comparing his influence with that of other players (Hoolahan specifically in this instance). Agree with your other points but the fans KNOW (as do the players) how vital Holt is. You only have to listen to PL''s take on Holt to tell how he rates his influence as well.

Don''t get me wrong I have been a critic of Holt this season when he produced some sluggish and below par performances (as late as October) and I dislike (intensely) some of his, er, diving or ''cheating'' even. However, when he puts his mind to it the guy is awesome and his leadership credentials are beyond dispute.     

I have supported the boys since late 1960''s and I can''t think of any other player who has had same level of influence as Holt. Sure we have had other goalscoring (and better) forwards but have any wielded the almost mystical effect this guy does?? Forget someone like Hucks - sizzling player but a ''loner'' and no leader, that''s for sure. Donkey Roberts was similar to Holt but was more limited as a player. I never saw Iwan as manager. With Holt I think he could be a great success in management if he goes down that route. Leadership is everything and Holt has it in bucketfuls.

Put it like this can you honestly see a front line of Vokes / Jackson or Jackson/ Pacheco giving us the win at Ipswich in that red hot atmosphere? I sure can''t! Did you watch Holt closely in the last few minutes at Watford? One moment he was literally on his knees in the Watford box as he could hardly move, the next he almost scored with a header from a corner. It was Roy of the Rovers stuff and if he had buried that header the roof would have come off the away stand!          

[/quote]

Like most things to do with sport the greatest influence is between the ears!

If the players and fans think they can''t manage without Holt then they wont.

Positive vibes are a must. Let whoever is leading the line KNOW everyone is behind them and they might JUST produce the goods.

Now is not the time for doubt by anyone.

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[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="Yellow Rider"][quote user="The Butler"]

So it''s not Lambert it''s Holt behind our success is it? That''s a tad insulting to PL.

If our team morale is that fragile that we can''t do without him for one game then we DON''T deserve prem football.

If the crowd can''t lift those out battling in our colours then we don''t deserve it either.

[/quote]

Fair points although my comment about Holt''s influence was comparing his influence with that of other players (Hoolahan specifically in this instance). Agree with your other points but the fans KNOW (as do the players) how vital Holt is. You only have to listen to PL''s take on Holt to tell how he rates his influence as well.

Don''t get me wrong I have been a critic of Holt this season when he produced some sluggish and below par performances (as late as October) and I dislike (intensely) some of his, er, diving or ''cheating'' even. However, when he puts his mind to it the guy is awesome and his leadership credentials are beyond dispute.     

I have supported the boys since late 1960''s and I can''t think of any other player who has had same level of influence as Holt. Sure we have had other goalscoring (and better) forwards but have any wielded the almost mystical effect this guy does?? Forget someone like Hucks - sizzling player but a ''loner'' and no leader, that''s for sure. Donkey Roberts was similar to Holt but was more limited as a player. I never saw Iwan as manager. With Holt I think he could be a great success in management if he goes down that route. Leadership is everything and Holt has it in bucketfuls.

Put it like this can you honestly see a front line of Vokes / Jackson or Jackson/ Pacheco giving us the win at Ipswich in that red hot atmosphere? I sure can''t! Did you watch Holt closely in the last few minutes at Watford? One moment he was literally on his knees in the Watford box as he could hardly move, the next he almost scored with a header from a corner. It was Roy of the Rovers stuff and if he had buried that header the roof would have come off the away stand!          

[/quote]

Like most things to do with sport the greatest influence is between the ears!

If the players and fans think they can''t manage without Holt then they wont.

Positive vibes are a must. Let whoever is leading the line KNOW everyone is behind them and they might JUST produce the goods.

Now is not the time for doubt by anyone.

[/quote]

 

[Y]

 

OTBC

 

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[quote user="Paul Cluckbert "]

Come off it Butler...

[/quote]Wasn''t the Butler one of your "purists" Cluck? Seems that City''s success this season is causing a split in the ranks" [:D]

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I would rather have Hoolahan back.  Sure Holt is a great leader and will be sorely missed but we can give the captains armband to Russel Martin who will no doubt give it his all.  We can play Vokes and Jackson together.  Vokes gives us that presence up front and Jackson is playing really well at the moment.  The last two games we have missed someone in midfield who is always looking for the ball which is why we have been pumping it long.  Hoolahan can make the most out of Vokes and Jackson and Pacheco by playing clever balls and being a constant option but can Holt?

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Strikers aren''t going to score goals with out someone creating chances. Hoolahan creates chances

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Our record at the end of the season without Hoolahan suggests to me that we desperately need Hoolahan back.

2008/9 prior to his injury W L W W after his injury D L L W L L L

2009/10 prior to his injury W W W W D W after his injury L W L D W W W L

2010/11 prior to his injury W D W W D W after his injury L D

So my vote is please come back Wes  

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[quote user="Lambert is King"]

Our record at the end of the season without Hoolahan suggests to me that we desperately need Hoolahan back.

2008/9 prior to his injury W L W W after his injury D L L W L L L

2009/10 prior to his injury W W W W D W after his injury L W L D W W W L

2010/11 prior to his injury W D W W D W after his injury L D

So my vote is please come back Wes  

[/quote]

Interesting.

OTBC

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[quote user="lappinitup"]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert "]Come off it Butler...

[/quote]Wasn''t the Butler one of your "purists" Cluck? Seems that City''s success this season is causing a split in the ranks" [:D]

[/quote]Discipline must be maintained Slappy. Like my namesake .....I do not allow myself to get too close to my staff for this very reason.As for Cluckdaffi... he is defeated and on the run whereas I am still in total control of this dominion.

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[quote user="Paul Cluckbert "]As for Cluckdaffi... he is defeated and on the run whereas I am still in total control of this dominion.

 

[/quote]Gadaffi / Cluckdaffi.....friends deserting them, the opposition closing in, the hangmans noose awaits them.....

 

or the deep fat frier......

 

[:D]

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[quote user="Yellow Rider"][quote user="The Butler"]

So it''s not Lambert it''s Holt behind our success is it? That''s a tad insulting to PL.

If our team morale is that fragile that we can''t do without him for one game then we DON''T deserve prem football.

If the crowd can''t lift those out battling in our colours then we don''t deserve it either.

[/quote]

Fair points although my comment about Holt''s influence was comparing his influence with that of other players (Hoolahan specifically in this instance). Agree with your other points but the fans KNOW (as do the players) how vital Holt is. You only have to listen to PL''s take on Holt to tell how he rates his influence as well.

Don''t get me wrong I have been a critic of Holt this season when he produced some sluggish and below par performances (as late as October) and I dislike (intensely) some of his, er, diving or ''cheating'' even. However, when he puts his mind to it the guy is awesome and his leadership credentials are beyond dispute.     

I have supported the boys since late 1960''s and I can''t think of any other player who has had same level of influence as Holt. Sure we have had other goalscoring (and better) forwards but have any wielded the almost mystical effect this guy does?? Forget someone like Hucks - sizzling player but a ''loner'' and no leader, that''s for sure. Donkey Roberts was similar to Holt but was more limited as a player. I never saw Iwan as manager. With Holt I think he could be a great success in management if he goes down that route. Leadership is everything and Holt has it in bucketfuls.

Put it like this can you honestly see a front line of Vokes / Jackson or Jackson/ Pacheco giving us the win at Ipswich in that red hot atmosphere? I sure can''t! Did you watch Holt closely in the last few minutes at Watford? One moment he was literally on his knees in the Watford box as he could hardly move, the next he almost scored with a header from a corner. It was Roy of the Rovers stuff and if he had buried that header the roof would have come off the away stand!          

[/quote]

Yes you''re right about Holt Yellow Rider. He''s right up there and his contribution and influence was still immense earlier in the season when he was being written off.

 

But I can''t go along with the Donkey Roberts references. I have noticed this before with other posters. Some can''t have a new hero without taking that status away from an old one. So back in the late sixties and early seventies did Hugh Curran become a donkey when Jimmy Bone started scoring a few years later? And then when Jones and Powell were rocks at the heart of our defence did Forbes and Stringer become donkeys?

 

I remember Iwan Roberts with fondness and respect. I remember my daughters first game at the portaloo and how Iwan turned the form book upside down with two goals, one of which was Bergkamp-esque. After preparing her for a likely defeat thanks to Iwan we had one of our best days. And then at Wolves in the play-off semi as Iwan drew a foul right in front of us in the last moments and that toothless grin and clenched fist as the ref blew for it. The majestic header in Cardiff that got us so close to the Premiership. And the calmly walking up to the Birmingham end to put away the first penalty. And of course the countless goals which saved us for a few seasons before. Oh, and who could forget the stamp on that disgrace of a footballer Muscat.

 

However much Holty achieves for us none of it will devalue Iwans contribution. Or that of Chris Sutton or any other great centre forwards from our past.

 

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Yes you''re right about Holt Yellow Rider. He''s right up there and his contribution and influence was still immense earlier in the season when he was being written off.

 

But I can''t go along with the Donkey Roberts references. I have noticed this before with other posters. Some can''t have a new hero without taking that status away from an old one. So back in the late sixties and early seventies did Hugh Curran become a donkey when Jimmy Bone started scoring a few years later? And then when Jones and Powell were rocks at the heart of our defence did Forbes and Stringer become donkeys?

 

I remember Iwan Roberts with fondness and respect. I remember my daughters first game at the portaloo and how Iwan turned the form book upside down with two goals, one of which was Bergkamp-esque. After preparing her for a likely defeat thanks to Iwan we had one of our best days. And then at Wolves in the play-off semi as Iwan drew a foul right in front of us in the last moments and that toothless grin and clenched fist as the ref blew for it. The majestic header in Cardiff that got us so close to the Premiership. And the calmly walking up to the Birmingham end to put away the first penalty. And of course the countless goals which saved us for a few seasons before. Oh, and who could forget the stamp on that disgrace of a footballer Muscat.

 

However much Holty achieves for us none of it will devalue Iwans contribution. Or that of Chris Sutton or any other great centre forwards from our past.

 

[/quote]Well said.  Roberts was the best "back to goal" player - bring it down, trap it, lay it off - I''ve seen at Carrow Road and he ran himself into the ground for the cause.

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I think this is a very interesting question as although (as Cluck rightly points out) Holt is the leader of this team the tactics and formation that have served us so well over the past two seasons have been set up to benefit Wes. Two aggressive full backs, a good passer of the ball at the base of the diamond, centre backs who are comfortable on the ball. All of these things combine to enable us to play a patient passing game and to try and get Wes on the ball in that area between the lines which can cause the opposition so much trouble.

 

I don''t think it''s any coincidence that in his absence we have seemingly had more difficulty in building our play from the back and the sort of measured football that has been a hallmark of Paul Lambert''s reign. A lot of people commented on how poor Elliot Ward was at Swansea and whilst I would agree that he had a fairly poor game defensively what struck me most was his frustration when in possession. Several times he tried dribbling the ball out of defence because of a lack of passing options and was almost caught out. When Wes plays, although he is notionally positioned at the tip of the diamond, he often drops deep to play nearer Fox and give the defenders greater options when on the ball. I wasn''t at Watford but by all accounts we played an awful lot of long balls in the first half and our play suffered as a result of this. Now maybe this was just the psychological result of having two big strikers on the pitch rather than one but I suspect it would not have happened with Wes in the side.

 

Overall I think that Holt and Hoolahan have been equally important to us over the past couple of seasons but based on the last two games I think we would miss Wes more if he were to be ruled out tonight.

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Sorry Nutty - I don''t mean the ''donkey'' term in any derogatory sense. Having said that in his first year at City, Iwan was most defintely that! Once Rioch got to grips with him he was a changed man and I was as much a fan as you. I continued to call him ''donkey'' though at home games with my old school friend, it was just a light hearted term that''s all.

The point I was making is not comparing respective ''abilities'' but all round influence at the club. Iwan was getting to the level of Holt but doesn''t match his overall influence.Make no mistake we CAN win games without Holt but if we were to lose him for the rest of the season the morale of the fans and players will take one hell of a hammering. It will be very interesting tonight to see how fans and players respond (assuming Holt doesn''t play) if things go against us. Even more testing will be next Thursday if Holt misses out. There you will 100% need BIG characters and they don''t come any bigger or bolder than Holt!    

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Fair enough Yellow Rider, I misunderstoodf you. That first season Iwan wasn''t his best that''s for sure. But he was still hugely influential holding the ball up. I remember two midweek games that made me realise this. The first was Sunderland at home which we won 2-1. Eadie was the star of then show but the catalyst was Iwan''s presence and hold up play. Then a couple of weeks later we lost 0-2 at home to Tranmere in a physical encounter wioth Roberts out injured. Bellamy and Eadie played in this one but we so missed Iwan and I realised for the first time how influential he was.

 

As for Holt and Hoolahan - it would be a huge miss if they are both out. No team could afford to lose their two best players. If I had to choose one to be fit tonight it would be Hoolahan. But if I had to choose one to be fit for the rest of the season it would be Holt.

 

 

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[quote user="lappinitup"]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert "]

Come off it Butler...

[/quote]Wasn''t the Butler one of your "purists" Cluck? Seems that City''s success this season is causing a split in the ranks" [:D]

[/quote]

The next thing you will know is that these "purists" will be buying their season tickets again.

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[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

Of course the question may not arise!

 

Norwich City skipper Grant Holt (left) and Wes Hoolahan have both been battling to be fit for tonight''s TV meeting with Nottingham Forest. Picture: Paul Chesterton / Focus Images

 

They both look like happy campers on the front page today.

 

OTBC

[/quote]

 

Prescience.

 

OTBC

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[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

Of course the question may not arise!

 

Norwich City skipper Grant Holt (left) and Wes Hoolahan have both been battling to be fit for tonight''s TV meeting with Nottingham Forest. Picture: Paul Chesterton / Focus Images

 

They both look like happy campers on the front page today.

 

OTBC

[/quote]

 

Prescience.

 

OTBC

[/quote]

So looking into your crystal ball what exactly was it you predicted or saw that us mere mortals could not grasp from the picture of Captain Marvel and Wes? By the way my mum told me that self praise is no recommendation if you have bumped this thread looking for plaudits.

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