Increased capacity?

[. 0]

Personally I''d like to see a return of something like the old Norwich City Supporters Club where disenfranchised City followers (throughout the catchment area) could go to feel part of their club and interact with other supporters on a grassroot level. Alot of retired/disabled/young fans could become part of a non-politicised set-up where they could register their interest for games and be assisted by the ''supporters club'' to get a ticket. Most could afford a single match per season... and be assured they could sit with their friends when they attended.There is a desperate need to bring together all of those fans who now feel left out... and perhaps more importantly the youngsters who simply don''t get a look in under the season ticket lock out. Forget them and NCFC will suffer badly in 20 years time.Any brave souls out there prepared to put such a club together purely for the supporter... irrespective of the depth of their pockets?

[TIL 1010 4,722]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert "]Personally I''d like to see a return of something like the old Norwich City Supporters Club where disenfranchised City followers (throughout the catchment area) could go to feel part of their club and interact with other supporters on a grassroot level. Alot of retired/disabled/young fans could become part of a non-politicised set-up where they could register their interest for games and be assisted by the ''supporters club'' to get a ticket. Most could afford a single match per season... and be assured they could sit with their friends when they attended.

There is a desperate need to bring together all of those fans who now feel left out... and perhaps more importantly the youngsters who simply don''t get a look in under the season ticket lock out. Forget them and NCFC will suffer badly in 20 years time.

Any brave souls out there prepared to put such a club together purely for the supporter... irrespective of the depth of their pockets?
[/quote]

Your "season ticket lock out" is a touch off beam PC as under league regulations i am sure you will find that all clubs must make 10% of their home capacity available to casual ticket buyers.

[. 0]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert "]Personally I''d like to see a return of something like the old Norwich City Supporters Club where disenfranchised City followers (throughout the catchment area) could go to feel part of their club and interact with other supporters on a grassroot level. Alot of retired/disabled/young fans could become part of a non-politicised set-up where they could register their interest for games and be assisted by the ''supporters club'' to get a ticket. Most could afford a single match per season... and be assured they could sit with their friends when they attended.There is a desperate need to bring together all of those fans who now feel left out... and perhaps more importantly the youngsters who simply don''t get a look in under the season ticket lock out. Forget them and NCFC will suffer badly in 20 years time.Any brave souls out there prepared to put such a club together purely for the supporter... irrespective of the depth of their pockets?[/quote]

Your "season ticket lock out" is a touch off beam PC as under league regulations i am sure you will find that all clubs must make 10% of their home capacity available to casual ticket buyers.

[/quote]10 per cent is derisory... and has strings.I''m talking about proper casuals turning up and getting in. Groups of mates... local families with relatives visiting... spur of the moment decisions etc etc.Proper casuals then... not controlled by the club casuals.

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="Stunning volley from Goss"]Corner In-fill in front of the hotel anyone?????[/quote]

I would have thought the Old Bill would want to keep the gap between the Barclay and the away support.  Also note McNallys comment about safe (comfortable) seats. Would you feel safe next to say Leeds fans? 

[/quote]ask the fans in the South stand.

[Bill 1,788]

The problem there Mr Cluckfellow is that the casuals would want to go to the big games and nor necessarily the average games so you would almost be back to square one.

How could you allocate those tickets. Without terracing and almost unlimited capacity the club could not have the situation of a fair few thousand being locked out who had simply turned up as in the old days.

I fully sympathise with your sentiments and do feel that as football is moving further and further away from it''s roots, people who play and have played the game it is leaving itself open to the need to pander to the happy clappy fraternity who are there for the ''event'' and will happily sit (or stand as directed) and chunter meaningless gibberish about ''running the channels, putting in a good shift, assists, confidence player'' or any other vacuous twaddle that they have heard as it supposedly adds to their experience.

The game will slowly evolve into a series of stop start actions that have a clear result each time(ooops, delivering an outcome) rather than a continous action that requires the spectator to evaluate what''s happening on the basis of actually understanding the game.

A lot to extrapolate from your comments on a lack of casual tickets but there is a clear thread linking the two.

"Ladies and gentlemen it''s now 4 minutes to go so be upstanding for the cuckoo clock shout " ........(then sit down again until we play samba de janerio)

[. 0]

[quote user="City1st"]The problem there Mr Cluckfellow is that the casuals would want to go to the big games and nor necessarily the average games so you would almost be back to square one.

How could you allocate those tickets. Without terracing and almost unlimited capacity the club could not have the situation of a fair few thousand being locked out who had simply turned up as in the old days.

I fully sympathise with your sentiments and do feel that as football is moving further and further away from it''s roots, people who play and have played the game it is leaving itself open to the need to pander to the happy clappy fraternity who are there for the ''event'' and will happily sit (or stand as directed) and chunter meaningless gibberish about ''running the channels, putting in a good shift, assists, confidence player'' or any other vacuous twaddle that they have heard as it supposedly adds to their experience.

The game will slowly evolve into a series of stop start actions that have a clear result each time(ooops, delivering an outcome) rather than a continous action that requires the spectator to evaluate what''s happening on the basis of actually understanding the game.

A lot to extrapolate from your comments on a lack of casual tickets but there is a clear thread linking the two.

"Ladies and gentlemen it''s now 4 minutes to go so be upstanding for the cuckoo clock shout " ........(then sit down again until we play samba de janerio)[/quote]I fear you''re not far off there City1st.. but I always believe it''s better to go down fighting.  [:)]Trouble is... if the wheels come off Paul Lambert''s gravy train and then crowds fall over time there will be no ''big games'' to attend. Lose the local grassroot casual support now and who will replace those bored and distracted season ticket holders when the time comes?

[Bill 1,788]

That has been my concern for somewhile now. Not that the wheels will come off, but that the game as well as City are marketing the game as an event rather than as a football game.

That puts a burden on delivering ''spectacle'' rather than staging football. In that light the emphasis can slowly be directed to that end without any major noticable change. A slow drip, drip, drip.

[. 0]

[quote user="City1st"]That has been my concern for somewhile now. Not that the wheels will come off, but that the game as well as City are marketing the game as an event rather than as a football game.

That puts a burden on delivering ''spectacle'' rather than staging football. In that light the emphasis can slowly be directed to that end without any major noticable change. A slow drip, drip, drip.[/quote]I think I''m finally understood.   [:''(]

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

What should really happen with a true community club is that David McNally would come on this forum and discuss the casuals/disenfranchised supporters issue raised over the past dozen or so posts on his thread, distill a couple of reasonable possibilities and make an open submission to the board.

Come on McNally, I challenge you.

One love.

OTBC

[morty 0]

Nuuuuuuuurse.

He''s out of bed again.

[Lambert is King 0]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]I would prefer the club to be looking out for less well-off adult supporters than semi-interested middle class kids. One ready way would be to run a tracer on former season ticket holders over 60 years of age and offer them three pairs of home casual tickets at half-price for the season - one in each category A, B, C. Another way would be to run an annual raffle across registered Norfolk retirement homes with pairs of home casual tickets at nominal cost as prizes. Faithful fans who have fallen on hard times could be identified through NCISA/Club cabbage organizers etc and helped with an odd home casual ticket here and there. Etc. The only thing is these groups probably won''t buy too many pies or replica shirts.............. Of course as a ''community club'' we may already be quietly doing some such things............ What would the club get out of it.........immeasurable goodwill and invaluable PR. One love. OTBC[/quote]

With respect where would you sit these supporters that you would sell cheaper tickets to as the ground seeems fairly full in category A and A + games. Have you ever thought that when tickets are cheaper they are against lesser teams and strangely although cheaper these people do not seem to want to watch the likes of Scunthorpe ?

More to the point to subsidise these cheap tickets which player would you sell ? as surely we need the cash to be able to build a competitive team ?

Is the Bristol City game not a good example we are battling at the top and thousands of tickets left, and before you say Monday and on TV would the game have sold out if it was Ipswich or Leeds at a much higher price ?

If you want somebody to blame its the players and their high wages not the club. To get a competitive team we have to pay the going rate for said players

 

[Felixfan 53]

Football is entertainment as well as a competetive sport and you cannot run your business model around casual ticket sales. Your core support is your season ticket base as this not only allows the club to plan ahead but more importantly reassures the lenders.

A high level of casual support whilst good for those that for whatever reason cannot commit is no substitution for the commitment of season ticket holders.

Agreed a balance needs to be struck but any extra seats should be available for those prepared to pay up front.

[KeelansGlove 0]

I work away 50% of the time and last season I didnt have a season ticket for the first time in ages (a mild protest as I always knew I would attend all the games I could get to) it was a real pain getting tickets and had to sit all over the place. This season my season tickets will have got me to around 7 or 8 games (probably the most expensive tickets in carrow road as buyback is a waste of time) I dont begrudge the club the money if they are investing in the team and we are seeing the benefit on the pitch.

The Irony is that if we had a capacity of 30,000 we might only sell 23,000 tickets. Norwich have been very careful to keep the number of tickets in line with demand and another 1-2000 seats this summer will be a good idea.

Sadly I dont think the club can afford to build a new stand on the basis of discounted tickets especially with the costs of having a decent team.

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="Felixfan"]Football is entertainment as well as a competetive sport and you cannot run your business model around casual ticket sales. Your core support is your season ticket base as this not only allows the club to plan ahead but more importantly reassures the lenders. A high level of casual support whilst good for those that for whatever reason cannot commit is no substitution for the commitment of season ticket holders. Agreed a balance needs to be struck but any extra seats should be available for those prepared to pay up front.[/quote]

Afriend of mine went to the Emerites last week on a casual ticket it cost £65 and he was right up in the rafters, So what thats Arsenal, but look at the players they have, do we want to continue to buy players from the car boot or go to Harrods, If we go up do we want to stay there or be another Westbrom, This club of ours has made some big blunders, But the season ticket payment method has enabled many fans to buy, me included, I could pay in full but I don''t, It seems that a lot of people moan for the sake of it, I''m in the over 60 bracket and find the increase unnoticed, not saying that every over 60 is in the same position as I am and no offence meant but as said if we want Glory we have to pay for it

Now where did I put my tin hat.      

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Spot on Pete. It''s the interest free 12 month payment option which makes season tickets affordable in many cases.

 

 

[Paul 0]

If we go up the cost of casual seats will go up to between £35 and £50 depending on the team, because that is the market rate.

My god I can see the threads now bitching about it now.

End of the day, can''t afford it don''t go!

[TIL 1010 4,722]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]What should really happen with a true community club is that David McNally would come on this forum and discuss the casuals/disenfranchised supporters issue raised over the past dozen or so posts on his thread, distill a couple of reasonable possibilities and make an open submission to the board. Come on McNally, I challenge you. One love. OTBC[/quote]

Where were these "casuals/disenfranchised " supporters in the eighties and ninties when our season ticket holder base was a very low 6,000 and we regularly played in front of 14/16,000 yet the ground capacity was 25,000? Remember that during this time we were regulars in the old First division yet had 10,000 empty seats and terrace spaces.The prices were very reasonable so why was there no take up by the casuals?

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

Partly, I guess, I am making a distinction between a true community club enabling some of those less fortunate - and a rather middle class community club which we all too often appear to be.

Get a discounted few tickets to some of the less able/less fortunate would-be-casuals from time to time that''s all I''m saying i.e. reconfigure existing discounts.

One love.

OTBC

[Felixfan 53]

pete_norw

Sorry if I was not clear. I did not mean to imply that those who choose to pay by instalment(Ido myself) are any less valuable than those that pay up front. I was just trying to emphasise the importance of a high season ticket base relative to the number of casual supporters.

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="Felixfan"]pete_norw Sorry if I was not clear. I did not mean to imply that those who choose to pay by instalment(Ido myself) are any less valuable than those that pay up front. I was just trying to emphasise the importance of a high season ticket base relative to the number of casual supporters.[/quote]

No worries mate,

[. 0]

[quote user="Lambert is King"]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]I would prefer the club to be looking out for less well-off adult supporters than semi-interested middle class kids. One ready way would be to run a tracer on former season ticket holders over 60 years of age and offer them three pairs of home casual tickets at half-price for the season - one in each category A, B, C. Another way would be to run an annual raffle across registered Norfolk retirement homes with pairs of home casual tickets at nominal cost as prizes. Faithful fans who have fallen on hard times could be identified through NCISA/Club cabbage organizers etc and helped with an odd home casual ticket here and there. Etc. The only thing is these groups probably won''t buy too many pies or replica shirts.............. Of course as a ''community club'' we may already be quietly doing some such things............ What would the club get out of it.........immeasurable goodwill and invaluable PR. One love. OTBC[/quote]

With respect where would you sit these supporters that you would sell cheaper tickets to as the ground seeems fairly full in category A and A + games. Have you ever thought that when tickets are cheaper they are against lesser teams and strangely although cheaper these people do not seem to want to watch the likes of Scunthorpe ?

More to the point to subsidise these cheap tickets which player would you sell ? as surely we need the cash to be able to build a competitive team ?

Is the Bristol City game not a good example we are battling at the top and thousands of tickets left, and before you say Monday and on TV would the game have sold out if it was Ipswich or Leeds at a much higher price ?

If you want somebody to blame its the players and their high wages not the club. To get a competitive team we have to pay the going rate for said players

 

[/quote]It''s not about ''cheap'' seats... it''s about ready availability for casual supporters.In the absence of standing a decent seating area should be set aside for day arrivals on a first come first served basis. Some days it will fill... on other ocassions it might not. It''s basically a lock out unless you''re able to plan in advance or don''t mind using binoculars to see if your friend is ok in another part of the stand.The club wants it''s cake and eat it with the entire ground capacity stitched up. Where do the spur of the moment casuals get a look in? Not everyone has a precise diary and therefore some may unexpectedly find themselves able to get to a match at short notice. What chance have they got? Are they less relevant because they have other commitments in life? Are they not worthy of consideration?We''re back to the ''holier than thou'' season ticket holders not giving a stuff about others less fortunate and a club only interested in pandering to their middle class ''audience''.

[Felixfan 53]

Paul Cluckbert wrote "We''re back to the ''holier than thou'' season ticket holders not giving a stuff about others less fortunate and a club only interested in pandering to their middle class ''audience''."

Where did this come from - supporters and season ticket holders come from all walks of life and income groups. Not sure how the club panders to them. Anyone can purchse a season ticket and without labouring the point they are the reason the club exists and thrives.

You cannot run a business of this size based upon people who for whatever reason cannot attend every week. In any event for most games there are seats available for members and casual supporters who just fancy taking in a match, (usually a top game)

[grantroederdisaster 0]

Their will always be spaces left available for casuals to get in because the League rules state that a certain % of a grounds capacity is set aside for casuals!

 

I agree with Cluckbert that casual prices are too much and theirs a fair number of fans who like to go but don''t/can''t go to every game. But at the end of the day like in any activity in any walk of life, the more commited souls are the ones who get the better deals and more emphasis on!

 

In other words you don''t prevent the commited Johnie from buying a season ticket in order to keep the seat free in case Simon the Casual wants to go to 10 games a season!

 

Like another poster mentions, before the 1990''s when by and large casual prices didn''t work out much more, if not any more expensive than season tickets, the ground was normally 8-10,000 short of capacity!

 

Anyway I bet a fair number of season tickets are passed onto friends and relatives when the ST holder can''t make a certain game!

 

 

[morty 0]

The fact remains that in life if you can''t afford something, you can''t have it. Norwich City isn''t a charity. This fluffy cuddly ideal that we should help poor people see football is laughable.

[Bill 1,788]

"We''re back to the ''holier than thou'' season ticket holders.."as opposed to the constant carping of the ''prolier than thou'' non season ticket holder

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="morty"]The fact remains that in life if you can''t afford something, you can''t have it. Norwich City isn''t a charity. This fluffy cuddly ideal that we should help poor people see football is laughable.[/quote]

That would mean that everybody should pay full price, regardless...........

And then maybe you should just extinguish the riff-raff as well while you''re about it......

''Heil Hitler!''

OTBC

[morty 0]

What the hell are you on about, seriously?

Rule number 42 of Bly style debating :- If it appears you are faced with points that you cannot counter via googled facts, just completely change the subject, and throw in a little whiskey based insanity for good measure.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

There are lies damn, lies and statistics.  As with most of the posts on here, people argue their points at two extremes and very rarely is there a reasoned arguement in the middle, this thread highlights this point well. 

 

Anyway, here are those stats from the current season - the % full column being most relevant.  Make of them what you will, which I am sure you will[;)] -

 

		Average	Minimum	Maximum	Total	Capacity	%Full
1	Leeds Utd	26,940	20,747	33,622	484,931	40,296	66.9%
2	Derby County	26,080	23,159	33,010	469,455	33,597	77.6%
3	Norwich City	25,245	23,852	26,532	454,412	26,532	95.2%
4	Leicester City	23,623	19,611	30,919	401,602	32,500	72.7%
5	Nottm Forest	23,100	19,501	29,490	415,803	30,602	75.5%
6	Cardiff City	22,938	20,573	26,049	412,884	26,828	85.5%
7	Hull City	21,182	19,714	24,110	360,110	25,504	83.1%
8	Sheffield Utd	20,584	17,496	22,936	349,943	32,609	63.1%
9	Ipswich Town	19,306	16,728	23,345	308,898	30,311	63.7%
10	Reading	17,204	14,029	23,677	309,679	24,161	71.2%
11	Middlesbrough	16,351	13,749	23,550	277,978	35,049	46.7%
12	Coventry City	16,041	12,292	28,184	288,738	32,609	49.2%
13	Portsmouth	15,795	13,345	20,040	284,319	20,821	75.9%
14	QP Rangers	15,254	12,046	18,068	274,587	19,128	79.8%
15	Burnley	15,210	13,655	20,453	243,366	22,546	67.5%
16	Swansea City	15,081	12,411	19,309	256,390	20,532	73.5%
17	Bristol City	14,752	13,376	18,308	250,796	21,497	68.6%
18	Crystal Palace	14,711	12,353	17,486	250,101	26,309	55.9%
19	Watford	12,897	10,620	15,101	232,163	19,920	64.7%
20	Barnsley	12,151	10,481	20,309	206,568	23,009	52.8%
21	Millwall	11,976	8,937	16,170	203,592	20,146	59.4%
22	Preston	11,499	8,994	18,417	195,486	21,000	54.8%
23	Doncaster	10,092	8,448	13,614	171,570	15,231	66.3%
24	Scunthorpe Utd	5,649	4,334	8,122	96,033	9,088	62.2%

[morty 0]

Indeed Slim, this illustrates the point about supply and demand, and maximising the situation into profits, which of course benefits the team.

The situation with tickets and attendance means that if you really want to ensure you can get a ticket to the games that you want to see, the best(and cheapest) way to do this is to buy a season ticket.

I have considered over the last few seasons not renewing mine (especially this season as I''ll miss roughly half the games due to work) but knowing I may not get a seat for the big games means I have chosen to renew.

This table also nicely illustrates what happens when your ground is too big for you!

[Herman 9,713]

Tickets are available for ''casual'' supporters.I knew at the beginning of the season that i wouldn''t be able to go to many games so i invested in a Super Membership (quite cheap) and am pretty much guaranteed tickets to most games.Take Preston for example.On the monday before the game i thought sod it,i hadn''t been for ages,and got a ticket in the Barclay really easy.People need to stop living in the past,when you could turn up on the day,and realise a day at a game needs a little bit of pre-planning.