Jim Smith 2,578 Posted February 5, 2011 Defeat today is no great disgrace. Its a tough place to go and I always suspected that we might struggle to maintain our away record. However, having listened on the radio in between watching the game via a (ropey) stream I have to say today''s result was highly frustrating because for the one period during the game where we played our proper formation with 4 midfielders we absolutely bossed it and Burnley couldn;t get a kick. Either side of that period, however, we seemed to lack shape and fluency and Burnley took advantage. Lambert has shown himself to be a great manager but each time this season we have tinkered with the formation and played anything other than 4-4-2 or the diamond it has not worked. Doncaster, the first 30 minutes of Shef U at home and today''s first half seem to be particular examples. 3 centre backs today was negative and invited Burnley onto us rather than us exerting our game on them as we have done in other away games. Credit to lambert though, when things go badly he does change it but then having got back to 1-1 and with the team playing well we then brought Wilbraham on and (whilst he did ok I think) we seemed to lose our shape again and burnley got back in the game and subsequently were able to close it out. Very, very annoying, particularly with all our rivals in the top six winning this weekend so far.We arguably had our best run this season when we were down to the bear bones and had no option other than to play the best 11 players fit. Sinceplayers have started coming back and we''ve started tinkering with the team we seem to have lost a bit of fluency. In my view Lambert needs to keep things simple because when he does, it works!Still a long way to go this season and this defeat is not a disaster but I always find defeats so much harder to take when I feel we haven;t done ourselves justice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,578 Posted February 5, 2011 [quote user="Jim Smith"]Defeat today is no great disgrace. Its a tough place to go and I always suspected that we might struggle to maintain our away record. However, having listened on the radio in between watching the game via a (ropey) stream I have to say today''s result was highly frustrating because for the one period during the game where we played our proper formation with 4 midfielders we absolutely bossed it and Burnley couldn;t get a kick. Either side of that period, however, we seemed to lack shape and fluency and Burnley took advantage. Lambert has shown himself to be a great manager but each time this season we have tinkered with the formation and played anything other than 4-4-2 or the diamond it has not worked. Doncaster, the first 30 minutes of Shef U at home and today''s first half seem to be particular examples. 3 centre backs today was negative and invited Burnley onto us rather than us exerting our game on them as we have done in other away games. Credit to lambert though, when things go badly he does change it but then having got back to 1-1 and with the team playing well we then brought Wilbraham on and (whilst he did ok I think) we seemed to lose our shape again and burnley got back in the game and subsequently were able to close it out. Very, very annoying, particularly with all our rivals in the top six winning this weekend so far.We arguably had our best run this season when we were down to the bear bones and had no option other than to play the best 11 players fit. Sinceplayers have started coming back and we''ve started tinkering with the team we seem to have lost a bit of fluency. In my view Lambert needs to keep things simple because when he does, it works!Still a long way to go this season and this defeat is not a disaster but I always find defeats so much harder to take when I feel we haven;t done ourselves justice. [/quote] the bare bones even! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035 Posted February 5, 2011 we need Surman back, because there is only one place that he can play, that being on the left side of the diamond. That will resist any tempation to move Hoolahan around the team and play him in his best position behind the front 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baldyboy 1 Posted February 5, 2011 honesty on current form it is difficult to know just what our best team is, especially the strikers and centre backs!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 8,735 Posted February 5, 2011 I was about to post something similar. In the last three games we have played three different formations (diamond v. Palace, 4-4-2 v. Millwall, whatever the hell it was we played today) with three different backlines, three different midfields and two different strike forces. As brilliant a manager as Lambert is, it is perfectly legitimate criticism to say he may need to stop tinkering. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rudolph Hucker 0 Posted February 5, 2011 This is a pertinent question. I wonder what Korey Smith has done wrong? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baldyboy 1 Posted February 5, 2011 nothing Rudolph!!!! but who would you leave out for him? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mello Yello 2,553 Posted February 5, 2011 I would have personally preferred for Zak to have remained on the pitch and Leon to have been subbed...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 8,735 Posted February 5, 2011 David Fox for me, nothing against him but I prefer the balance of having Smith and Crofts to tackle and Lansbury and Wes to pass it around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morisons Prozac 0 Posted February 5, 2011 [quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]This is a pertinent question. I wonder what Korey Smith has done wrong?[/quote]At this moment in time he is the weakest midfielder we have on our cards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,898 Posted February 5, 2011 [quote user="Crofts Number 1 Fan"][quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"] This is a pertinent question. I wonder what Korey Smith has done wrong?[/quote]At this moment in time he is the weakest midfielder we have on our cards.[/quote]Doubt that''s true. Korey''s ''legs'' in midfield was what used to be a big part of making the diamond work. Have we lost sight of what Korey used to bring to our team? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morisons Prozac 0 Posted February 5, 2011 Crofts, Fox, Hoolahan, Lansbury and Surman are all better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morisons Prozac 0 Posted February 5, 2011 *and Lappin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,898 Posted February 5, 2011 Of course that''s your opinion but I wouldn''t have thought many of those you mention would be better on the right of the diamond. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Great Drinkell 51 Posted February 7, 2011 So we don''t actually agree on the best starting 11 so Lambert will never get it right. for me it''s RuddyMartin Barnett Whitbread Drury CroftsSmith Surman Hollahan Martin Holt And yours is? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harry 0 Posted February 7, 2011 [quote user="The Great Drinkell"] RuddyMartin Barnett Whitbread Drury CroftsSmith Surman Hollahan Martin Holt[/quote][IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_d9aRvYaENWc/TT9G7Ve-3FI/AAAAAAAABSs/UogoMl9eOhg/s1600/thumbs_up.jpg[/IMG] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John 0 Posted February 7, 2011 It''s odd, how viciously fans can cling onto patterns of failure, yet explicitly show willing to turn a blind eye to any success apparent in that same pattern.Was it not a 4-3-3 formation we played against QPR? It''s also notable in that game, that not only did we exert our power on them in terms of shots on goal (21 to their 11), but we commanded possession (63% to their 37%). Surely that''s indicative of success, with a weakened 3 man midfield of ours being pitted against a 4 man midfield from what is probably the best side in the League?We played games with as many as 5 predominantly attacking players on the field in League One and won success as well.I think it''s unfair to say that experimentation on Lambert''s part has led to any sort of ''downfall''. In fact, i''d argue deviation from a path of predictability has sustained our success, and that while we''re bound to struggle to overcome some barriers, the ultimate benefits derived from the footballing calculation of someone with the nous Lambert has will vastly outweigh our losses.Trial and error. We learn from it, and we need to be open to it if we''re to see the best from Lambert. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gingerpele 0 Posted February 7, 2011 I thought we played diamond against QPR, with Chris Martin at the top... Hoolahan on left? For some reason i can''t actually remember anything that happened during that game :P Think it was overshadowed by the failure the next weekend Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted February 8, 2011 It is becoming obvious that the players prefer the diamond, and a majority of them have been bought to suit that system, but the diamond is likely to get mullered against a team that plays with two genuine wide players.As a previous poster has said, I do wonder what has happened to Korey, but struggle to come up with a name I would drop for him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424 Posted February 8, 2011 In all the games I have seen Norwich play this season (which isn''t a huge amount in fairness, maybe 5 or 6) the formation has never stayed the same throughout the game, which is how it should be. We are lucky that we have players that can fill several different roles, we have often started with a diamond, then switched to 4-4-2 or gone to 4-3-3. I have even noticed at times we have played 4-2-3-1 or a more compact 4-5-1. The 5-3-2 on Saturday was a first, and I can understand why Lambert went that route, R. Martin and Drury have been two of our most effective players this season and this formation was designed to free them up to get forward more. It didn''t work out as planned, but it''s good to see a manager who is prepared to mix things up to surprise other teams. Also, everyone has been knocking Jackson recently but when he was playing on Saturday Burnley''s defence had to sit much further back to stop his runs behind them, as soon as he came off they could all move forward a few yards which crowded out the midfield and put more pressure on our backline. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted February 8, 2011 [quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]In all the games I have seen Norwich play this season (which isn''t a huge amount in fairness, maybe 5 or 6) the formation has never stayed the same throughout the game, which is how it should be. We are lucky that we have players that can fill several different roles, we have often started with a diamond, then switched to 4-4-2 or gone to 4-3-3. I have even noticed at times we have played 4-2-3-1 or a more compact 4-5-1. The 5-3-2 on Saturday was a first, and I can understand why Lambert went that route, R. Martin and Drury have been two of our most effective players this season and this formation was designed to free them up to get forward more. It didn''t work out as planned, but it''s good to see a manager who is prepared to mix things up to surprise other teams. Also, everyone has been knocking Jackson recently but when he was playing on Saturday Burnley''s defence had to sit much further back to stop his runs behind them, as soon as he came off they could all move forward a few yards which crowded out the midfield and put more pressure on our backline. [/quote]Interesting observation re Jackson, one that the "run around waving hands in the air claiming he is rubbish and should be dropped" brigade would do well to observe. He is our only striker with pace, and pace frightens defenders. All he needs is a goal or two. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ernie 0 Posted February 8, 2011 [quote user="The Great Drinkell"]So we don''t actually agree on the best starting 11 so Lambert will never get it right. for me it''s RuddyMartin Barnett Whitbread Drury CroftsLansbury Surman Hollahan Martin Holt And yours is?[/quote] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaun Tilly Lace 0 Posted February 8, 2011 Much as I love PL as a manager, I feel he is rather too clever for his own good at times. He loves to tinker and experiment with formations. Maybe he sees it all as part of his managerial apprenticeship. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJP 79 Posted February 8, 2011 [quote user="king canary"]David Fox for me, nothing against him but I prefer the balance of having Smith and Crofts to tackle and Lansbury and Wes to pass it around.[/quote]I''m not sure what Korey would give you in a bit of extra pace and energy would make up for what you lose in terms of Fox''s better reading of the game and far better use of the ball. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424 Posted February 8, 2011 Here is an interesting piece about 5-3-2 and diamond formations in the Guardian by their tactics geek Jonathan Wilson, felt it was extra interesting following on from our performance at Burnley. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/feb/08/the-question-jonathan-wilson-liverpool Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZiggyPiggy 0 Posted February 8, 2011 Whitbread over Ward? Wow. If you could give me a shout next time Zak wins a header that would be super, cheers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fiery Zac 1,066 Posted February 8, 2011 [quote user="ZiggyPiggy"]Whitbread over Ward? Wow. If you could give me a shout next time Zak wins a header that would be super, cheers.[/quote]Really strange how differently fans see games and players. Personally one thing that has stuck in my mind from seeing the few games Whitbread has played is that he wins every header (except against the beast), in fact thats what impressed me most as i hadnt seen that from the few he played last season.But hey, if you could give me a shout the next time Elliot doesnt slice a clearance that would be super, cheers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJP 79 Posted February 8, 2011 [quote user="Persnickety"][quote user="ZiggyPiggy"]Whitbread over Ward? Wow. If you could give me a shout next time Zak wins a header that would be super, cheers.[/quote]Really strange how differently fans see games and players. Personally one thing that has stuck in my mind from seeing the few games Whitbread has played is that he wins every header (except against the beast), in fact thats what impressed me most as i hadnt seen that from the few he played last season.But hey, if you could give me a shout the next time Elliot doesnt slice a clearance that would be super, cheers.[/quote]It is odd how fans find and latch on to particular faults with players even when there really isn''t anything to be concerned about. Often I think a fan will make up their mind about a player before they''ve seen them play and will have blinded themselves to any other possibility, regardless of what the player does on the pitch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Great Drinkell 51 Posted February 8, 2011 [quote user="ZiggyPiggy"]Whitbread over Ward? Wow. If you could give me a shout next time Zak wins a header that would be super, cheers.[/quote]Can''t see anything Ward brings to the team that Whitbread doesn''t offer - and although Ward has had some good games in others he''s been terrible IMO worries me every time the ball goes near him but very comfortable on the ball when it''s on he deck. It''s strange how we see the same player in the same game yet see it so differently. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJP 79 Posted February 8, 2011 [quote user="The Great Drinkell"][quote user="ZiggyPiggy"]Whitbread over Ward? Wow. If you could give me a shout next time Zak wins a header that would be super, cheers.[/quote]Can''t see anything Ward brings to the team that Whitbread doesn''t offer - and although Ward has had some good games in others he''s been terrible IMO worries me every time the ball goes near him but very comfortable on the ball when it''s on he deck. It''s strange how we see the same player in the same game yet see it so differently. [/quote]Well my gut feeling on it is that Ward is likely to play with more commitment to the cause than Whitbread is. I get the same kind of feeling with Whitbread that I got with Steven Smith and Dejan Stefanovic - a nice enough player but not a player who is really going to give you everything they''ve got and take one for the team (although I do think he''ll do better for us than either of those two did). Another thing about Ward, considering the amount of criticism he gets (e.g. you saying he worries you every time the ball goes near him), is that he has started the majority of league games we''ve played this season and I can''t believe we''d have done this well with such a weak link in our defence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites