Would we actually fill 35,000 seats?

[a1canary 0]

I know the board said they''ve done their research and in terms of our catchment area it should be possible but i don''t think it would simply be a case of "build and they will come." I think we''ve already hit or slightly surpassed our attendance / ticket price sweet spot. It was already noted how we didn''t sell out Cardiff. In recent years we''ve had a string of sell outs and the board have taken advantage of that latent demand by upping the ticket prices to increase revenue. Fair (ish) enough, but if we had 35,000 seats today and left prices as they are there''s no way we''d be selling out. Yes we''re looking at it as if we''re in the Prem and this would certainly attract more. But how many more? Bare in mind ticket prices would go up again which would put off many more people. So i think the board have to be very careful about these expansion plans. We''d need to get Andrew Cullen back for a start! Looking at MKD game on late kick off the other night showed he could be struggling to get people along there!

[canarytom 0]

Depends what with

[kdncfc 27]

I don''t think you''d sell out every week but you''d easily sell out against the so called big four plus Spurs, Leeds and probably Man City. The other games would probably be between 28 and 32k depending on how well we were doing and the size of the away following. There seems to be a myth amongst some of our fans that we only have 25k fans because that''s what we get most weeks but there are many more who if we got to the prem would come out of the woodwork. Remember we took 34k to Cardiff and could have sold more if we had them, the club have obviously done their homework on this and recognise that the demand would be there if we went up.

[dylanisabaddog 4,866]

In the early 70''s we regularly attracted 35,000 crowds, but in those days football was cheap.

I think the Board may be underestimating Norfolk''s resistance to paying for top flight football.  Having said that, we would fill the ground for

Arsenal

Spurs

Chelsea

Man U

Man City

and most clubs would bring between 1500 and 2000 fans, so I would think that we would average not far short of 30,000

The plan would probably also mean that away fans would be put in the River End

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

The biggest factor would obviously be ticket prices. Bowkett hinted that with a bigger capacity ticket prices would be cheaper.

With slightly lower prices and a Premier League football the club would attract 30,000+ every week i''d imagine.

[zak123 0]

We will easily fill it, but prices will need to be around teh £20 mark in the premier for the worse teams and where they are now for the better teams!

[paul moy 235]

My understanding is that the club would up the capacity with a view to lowering ticket prices as they are aware that they are rather expensive at the moment. Lowering ticket prices would obviously increase attendances as long as team performances remain at the same level and capacity is increased.

[Lincoln Yellow 0]

Away followings would be a lot higher as well, as others have said. If we manage to stay up for 2 seasons, then we start to attract more and more fans as we are then a premiership team.I think the answer is yes.

[I am a Banana 0]

but if we get £££££££ from the prem then surely the board could cut ticket costs and still make the same money? eh?

[grantroederdisaster 0]

I reckon we''d of had near to 35,000 for the Leeds game in the 3RD DIVISION last season and could of got over 30,000 for a few others like Millwall on Boxing day and the last 2-3 at the end. This season we''d of had 30+ for the S cum, Leeds and QPR home games so I''ve got no doubt that in the Premiership we''d get 35,000 for the big games and 30,000 most games!

 

Another poster alluded to the myth that we''ve only got so many fans which is the "Little ole Norwich" brainwashing that we''ve had rammed down our throats over the years. Remember if we increased capacity then more season tickets would be available which are much cheaper than paying for on the day and in the Premiership a lot of the away followings would be larger and more used to paying high prices. In the top flight especially people would come out of the woodwork and buy season tickets. With a larger capacity then prices could be set a little bit lower which would be more enticing!

 

Another myth is that the only reason Norwich have had good crowds is cause they virtually give the tickets awy. Yes its correct that for certain games kids can get in very cheap but then again if your under 16 or over 65 and want to sit in the middle sections of the Jarold stand and the City stand you have to pay adults prices which has always been the case.

 

Remember that until the Worthy era we had a hardcore of 14,000. Since then thanks to a few successful years and Andrew Cullums initiatives we have acquired 10,000 extra fans from seemingly nowhere. The "build it and people will come" theory also occurs as well. This season thanks to the 1000 capacity increase and the team doing well, we''re averaging over 25,000 which includes away followings dropping because of our excessive casual prices. We wouldn''t be averaging this much if we had not increased the capacity in the summer. I also remember many fans stopping going to home games after our 1995 relegation from the Premiership cause they don''t want to watch lower Division football. I''m sure that there are more than a few "Premiership snobs" who would jump on the Canary bandwagon if we reached the Premiership!

 

In the future its likely that many clubs will increase ground capacity and if we don''t we''ll get left behind. A capacity of 35,000 or over would allow the club to be competitive and make it more attractive to players and possible investors. It would be very unambitious and short sighted not to increase the capacity if we had a few seasons in the Premiership!

 

My early years of following the club in the 1950 and 60''s show how much potential support there is for the club. In them days cause of the absence of tight ground control and health and safety we could get nearly 44,000 for big games yet I remember some games in the 1960''s that had crowds of 7000 in the 2nd Division. Since them days the population of Norfolk and North Suffolk (Norwich Citys biggest catchment area) has increased as well as the whole of East Anglia and people can get to games easier cause more of us have cars and the Norwich to Liverpool St trainline runs more trains.

 

I like Mcnally and CO cause they have not fell into "little ole Norwich" way of thinking and like myself can see how big the club can be when looking at the facts, figures which show the vast potential. If we have any ambitions of making the club as big as it can be then when finances permit, raising the capacity of Carrow Road to at least 35,000 is a must. I''m glad the board can see that even if some fans can''t!

[city-till-i-die 7]

[quote user="a1canary"]I know the board said they''ve done their research and in terms of our catchment area it should be possible but i don''t think it would simply be a case of "build and they will come."

I think we''ve already hit or slightly surpassed our attendance / ticket price sweet spot. It was already noted how we didn''t sell out Cardiff. In recent years we''ve had a string of sell outs and the board have taken advantage of that latent demand by upping the ticket prices to increase revenue. Fair (ish) enough, but if we had 35,000 seats today and left prices as they are there''s no way we''d be selling out. Yes we''re looking at it as if we''re in the Prem and this would certainly attract more. But how many more? Bare in mind ticket prices would go up again which would put off many more people. So i think the board have to be very careful about these expansion plans. We''d need to get Andrew Cullen back for a start! Looking at MKD game on late kick off the other night showed he could be struggling to get people along there!

[/quote]Not every week, but alot of the so called BIGGER TEAMS, i would say YES we would get close. Also with tickets prices being slightly lower this would prehaps invite more people to come[Y]

Im hoping next season to get 3 season tickets for myself and my kin[Y]

[Anderz 0]

Lambert often refers to CR as ''rocking with the sound of the home fans'', imagine the place full with 35,000 fans for an all-important fixture, that would be truly awesome. 

[LeJuge 0]

I think that extending the ground to its limit (we can''t go higher than that) in one go is by far the most cost effective means, rather than say extending to 30000 and then realising that we need to extend further.If we were to lower ticket prices slightly, say £20 for teams like Blackburn and Bolton, £28 for the bigger games, I could see us getting 30000 week in week out, occassionally more. I can''t see any harm in having a few thousand spare seats, with a stadium that big we would also put ourselves in the line for hosting smaller European Championship games if we were to ever get that tournament again.It should also be remembered that people tend to spend at least a tenner on pasties, beer or programs etc, sometimes a bit in the clubshop. Whacking up ticket prices when there are seats to spare is a false economy. Cutting ticket prices by a fiver might sell 3000 extra tickets, those 3000 people might spend say a tenner at the ground.I would rather 35000 than 30000, if needs must we can always extend the away allocation for the bigger clubs, Spurs and Chelsea etc would sell 5000 away tickets if they had the chance.

[city till i die 0]

we wouldn''t fill a 35.000 seater, and if we did the stadium would be full off glory hunting folk that only turn up when things are good!!

Unless we could give the away section an extra few thousand seats, because we all know when the big boys turn up at Carrow Road we have some how got opposition fans sitting in the home ends!!

[ricardo 7,341]

[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

 

My early years of following the club in the 1950 and 60''s show how much potential support there is for the club. In them days cause of the absence of tight ground control and health and safety we could get nearly 44,000 for big games yet I remember some games in the 1960''s that had crowds of 7000 in the 2nd Division. Since them days the population of Norfolk and North Suffolk (Norwich Citys biggest catchment area) has increased as well as the whole of East Anglia and people can get to games easier cause more of us have cars and the Norwich to Liverpool St trainline runs more trains.

 

[/quote]To put this in perspective GRD, Carrow Rd has only ever had 4 gates of over 40,000 in its entire existance. With the help of Roger Smith''s fine book, "The Canary Companion" I note that the 35k mark has only been exceeded 18 times. All the 40k+ games and 7 of the 35k+ games were FA Cup matches.I very much doubt that CR would average much above 30k even with regular Prem football. Local derbies and games against the big 4/5 would likely be the only time we could fill the capacity.

[Lambert is King 0]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

 

My early years of following the club in the 1950 and 60''s show how much potential support there is for the club. In them days cause of the absence of tight ground control and health and safety we could get nearly 44,000 for big games yet I remember some games in the 1960''s that had crowds of 7000 in the 2nd Division. Since them days the population of Norfolk and North Suffolk (Norwich Citys biggest catchment area) has increased as well as the whole of East Anglia and people can get to games easier cause more of us have cars and the Norwich to Liverpool St trainline runs more trains.

 

[/quote]

To put this in perspective GRD, Carrow Rd has only ever had 4 gates of over 40,000 in its entire existance. With the help of Roger Smith''s fine book, "The Canary Companion" I note that the 35k mark has only been exceeded 18 times. All the 40k+ games and 7 of the 35k+ games were FA Cup matches.

I very much doubt that CR would average much above 30k even with regular Prem football. Local derbies and games against the big 4/5 would likely be the only time we could fill the capacity.
[/quote]

I agree Ricardo, the only games we have sold out for have been the expensive games. The cheap games have not sold well and in fact a proportion of the seats not sold against Cardiff were FREE kids tickets in the AVIVA. The only other place to have a ticket was in the family area - the cheapest area of the ground. There are several people only interested in watching the bigger games and not interested in other games. Those begging for more seats and lower prices must remember this cost comes out of the playing budget and the millions spent on new stands will mean no or very few new players for a period 

[kdncfc 27]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

 

My early years of following the club in the 1950 and 60''s show how much potential support there is for the club. In them days cause of the absence of tight ground control and health and safety we could get nearly 44,000 for big games yet I remember some games in the 1960''s that had crowds of 7000 in the 2nd Division. Since them days the population of Norfolk and North Suffolk (Norwich Citys biggest catchment area) has increased as well as the whole of East Anglia and people can get to games easier cause more of us have cars and the Norwich to Liverpool St trainline runs more trains.

 

[/quote]To put this in perspective GRD, Carrow Rd has only ever had 4 gates of over 40,000 in its entire existance. With the help of Roger Smith''s fine book, "The Canary Companion" I note that the 35k mark has only been exceeded 18 times. All the 40k+ games and 7 of the 35k+ games were FA Cup matches.I very much doubt that CR would average much above 30k even with regular Prem football. Local derbies and games against the big 4/5 would likely be the only time we could fill the capacity.[/quote]The population of Norfolk has probably almost doubled since we last had crowds of 35k and above, given the right circumstances I think we could achieve such figures again. We may be lower populated than many areas but we are the only club for miles and I''m sure with even a minimal amount of success we could easily average over 30k.

[BB 6]

I think the club are sensible enough to know what level of demand they need to cater for. Pricing will be key & that is in the club''s hands.

The City stand should be replaced - it is very small and looks a bit rubbish on the Television. I suspect that there will be mixed use of an entirely new build - it could accommodate flats, offices or even car parking to meet increasing demand in that area.

[Felixfan 53]

Anyone who thinks that prices will be cheaper if we gain premier league status and expand to 35000 seats is living in cloud cuckoo land. I would expect the minimum casual seat for major games (now £33) would be at least £40 if not more.

[TIL 1010 4,718]

[quote user="Felixfan"]Anyone who thinks that prices will be cheaper if we gain premier league status and expand to 35000 seats is living in cloud cuckoo land. I would expect the minimum casual seat for major games (now £33) would be at least £40 if not more.[/quote]

Agree with you on this David and having been at the AGM last night i heard no mention of prices taking a decrease if we increased capacity to 35,000.

[Lambert is King 0]

[quote user="Felixfan"]Anyone who thinks that prices will be cheaper if we gain premier league status and expand to 35000 seats is living in cloud cuckoo land. I would expect the minimum casual seat for major games (now £33) would be at least £40 if not more.[/quote]

spot on and season ticket prices would double. Our gates would increase as much due tomore away fans as home fans

[LeJuge 0]

[quote user="Felixfan"]Anyone who thinks that prices will be cheaper if we gain premier league status and expand to 35000 seats is living in cloud cuckoo land. I would expect the minimum casual seat for major games (now £33) would be at least £40 if not more.[/quote]We would be lucky to get 20000 at those prices, you realise that unemployment is going to continue to rise right up to the end of 2012? And will still be at todays rate in 2015? It would be the club living in cloud cuckoo land if they put prices up that much. They would need to freeze prices in order to increase attendance in the premiership at all, with the exception of games against the big four. Although I agree that cutting prices is unlikely, McNally has already said that he intends to increase prices again next year. Let''s hope that we are in the division above if he does so, because otherwise we will see attendances beginning to slide.

[Old Shuck 183]

Would more seats = less season ticket holders?

How many people buy ST''s because it guarantee''s them a seat for every league game, something which is nowhere near guaranteed if you turn up ''on the day''.

In my early Norwich supporting days (mid-80''s) I went to just about any match I wanted, regardless of the opposition, turned up, paid at the entrance, got in. Didn''t even think about having a ST for that very reason.

If there are a lot more seats, would it be easier to buy on the day again and thus bring the days of turn up on the day back again-thus meaning very erratic gates-maybe 30''000 plus for Arsenal, Man Utd (especially considering all of their fans in Norfolk) but just 18''000 or so for Bolton and Blackpool et al?

[Hairy Canary 668]

[quote user="Old Shuck"]Would more seats = less season ticket holders? How many people buy ST''s because it guarantee''s them a seat for every league game, something which is nowhere near guaranteed if you turn up ''on the day''. In my early Norwich supporting days (mid-80''s) I went to just about any match I wanted, regardless of the opposition, turned up, paid at the entrance, got in. Didn''t even think about having a ST for that very reason. If there are a lot more seats, would it be easier to buy on the day again and thus bring the days of turn up on the day back again-thus meaning very erratic gates-maybe 30''000 plus for Arsenal, Man Utd (especially considering all of their fans in Norfolk) but just 18''000 or so for Bolton and Blackpool et al?[/quote]

Spot on Shuck. I think you would see far more people picking and choosing their games rather than being season ticket holders if they could be gauranteed a seat. Many clubs (Leeds for example) have this experience. The ground exceeds the season ticket base and you get very large crowds for the big games and smaller ones for the remainder.

I recoon we would get the 35,000 for the top clubs, particularly with their large away following, but could well end up with fewer (say 20,000) for the less attractive games against the likes of Blackburn, Bolton etc.

 

[AJ 1,218]

Why on earth, if they are considering increasing the capacity, did they sell off the carpark?! It would have been a good long-term investment because at times it is hard enough to find places to park as it is! Let alone with another 10,000 people turning up each week!

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Felixfan"]Anyone who thinks that prices will be cheaper if we gain premier league status and expand to 35000 seats is living in cloud cuckoo land. I would expect the minimum casual seat for major games (now £33) would be at least £40 if not more.[/quote]

Agree with you on this David and having been at the AGM last night i heard no mention of prices taking a decrease if we increased capacity to 35,000.

[/quote]

It was implied in an interview with Bowkett (not at the AGM), who stated that he had spoken to many people who had told him that thicket prices were rather expensive and the cure would be to increase capacity. 

[paul moy 235]

''ticket''..... LOL

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="AJ"]Why on earth, if they are considering increasing the capacity, did they sell off the carpark?! It would have been a good long-term investment because at times it is hard enough to find places to park as it is! Let alone with another 10,000 people turning up each week![/quote]

... because if we hadn''t we would probably have gone bust as this was part of the strategy to reduce our debt.  

 

[a1canary 0]

I think this thread shows that it''s not cut and dried at all that 8000 extra seats (costing 20m, which seems a huge sum) would be filled. We''ve had the luxury of a full stadium for a number of years now but as i said, i think we''re already at the point where we are maximising attendance and revenue. It''s pretty obvious from this season that 8000 more seats tomorrow would not be filled. And that any further price hikes would start to reduce attendance. It all comes down to the premier league effect which will be offset by further ticket price hikes and persistent unemployment. What would you rather, the Leeds situation - big crowds for the big games but a half empty stadium for the rest. Or a full stadium albeit with a lower maximum all through the season?The importance and contribution to our recent onfield success of a full Carrow Road must not be underestimated. Plus, what does it do to the economics of the expansion if the extra seats are not actually filled half the time? Must make it far less viable and lengthen the pay back period, eating in to the onfield budget.I would imagine McNally and co are thinking about all this and it''s quite right and worth remembering what they said - which is that we''d only even think about it if we a) got to the PL, and b) stayed there a couple of seasons. Both big IFs!

[grantroederdisaster 0]

If I''d of been told at any point during the late 70''s through to the early 00''s that in 2010 Norwich City FC would be averaging just under 25,000 in the 3rd Division after 4 seasons of averaging virtually the same in the 2nd Division I''d of literally peed myself with laughter and suggested to the person saying it that they are maybe not quite the full ticket!

I think similarly that many fans under estimate our potential for increase in crowds if we increased the ground capacity!

 

The 10,000 "new" regular fans we''ve acquired in recent years are mainly made up of fans who''d go to some of the bigger games but not often or Radio Norfolk live coverage listening fans who decided to see what its like in front of their own eyes and many of them drag along kids who catch the bug. Yes it appears that they have come out of the woodwork but in reality they have always been around in the days of low crowds but rarely if not never went!

 

Their are still many other people who follow the club yet don''t watch live games at all or once in a blue moon. The different faces amongst the 18,000 at the Leyton Orient game is evidence of this.

 

I laugh when fans still with the "little ole Norwich" stereotype in the backs of their minds seem to think that everyone who goes to home games at Carrow Road is the upper limit of Norwichs support. Theirs still many more elsewhere and add to that the many SKY TV fairweather Premiership fans who undoubtedly would be swayed by top flight football!

 

Last night Leeds who often have crowds lower than us had nearly 39,000 against Arsenal last night. The S cum who are down to 16/17,000 for some home games had nearly 30,000 against Arsenal. Stoke City who when we played them a few years back in the Champiosnhip had to give away free tickets to get 20,000 now get 27,000 every game now their in the Premiership after years of strugling to get over 12/13,000 in the Championship. Fulham who were getting 4/5000 before they Al Fayed started bankrolling them are now getting 25,000 every game. You can go literally anywhere in the World and they follow Premiership football, don''t under estimate that!

 

Despite all these facts and figures about clubs who in the majority, at the same level as us would get much lower crowds than us, some Norwich fans think we wouldn''t get 30,000 many times in the Premiership!

 

The previous board said that during our last Premiership season in 2004/05 we could of easily sold 30,000 tickets every game!

 

Another misconception about capacity increases is that some seem to think that if you increase capacity yet don''t fill every seat after doing so, the investment was a bad one. Yes in a perfect world every seat would be filled every game which would be the aim but I don''t think even Arsenal with their almost capacity 60,000 crowds every game at the Emirates have achieved this. Say at present if we added 3000 seats to increase the capacity of Carrow Road to 30,000 and we then had average crowds of 28,000 this would mean that our average had gone up almost by 3000 which would make it a successful move. Our current mid season average of 25200 would not of been achieved without the 1000 capacity increase work carried out during the summer because we have had 3 26,000+ crowds so far and 2 further games that were over last seasons limit (with segregation) of 25,550. Yes the crowd for Cardiff last Saturday was 25,200 but remember we aren''t long out of the expensive Xmas period, we''ve had 3 previous home games since Xmas and Cardiffs away support was low which reduced the crowd. Against a club with a decent away support (many Premierhsip clubs have regular away support levels of 1500+) the crowd would of been over 26,000. Another factor during current times of getting near capacity crowds is that quite a few casual fans who would be interested in watching a game don''t often bother cause they think they''ve no chance of getting a ticket and the local media don''t help. Radio Norfolk in their previews of nearly every home game say that Carrow Raod will be sold out and the EDP have said similar when games aren''t sold out. Other media sources will go on about their being a 25+,000 crowd at Carrow Road when previewing the game which makes Casuals think they won''t get a ticket!

 

As for prices, yes I agree they are too steep for on the day buyers but if we got in the Premiership and had a bigger capacity more people would be interested in becoming ST holders which is cheaper than paying to watch every game on a game by game basis. Also currently the 3 biggest crowds this season have been the Ips hit, Leeds and QPR games which were the most expensive games to watch for casuals, showing that casual fans don''t think of the prices if theirs a game they really want to see. Turn that back top front and as many posters have alluded to, quite often the only areas of Carrow Roads home end unsold have been the cheap family areas in the Wensum corner and the Aviva stand. The next home area after these two to be the last to sell out normally is the River End which by no coincidence is also a cheap area.

 

Its very unlikely that the club would increase to 35,000 in one big hit, but would probably add another 1-2000 at first, maybe in the summer if things go well. At the 2010 AGM Bowket said that the capacity could be raised by 2-3000 within the current stadium footprint, which means not building upper tiers and new stands that would take up extra space behind the existing stadium. Bowket said this before last summers 1000 increase.

 

Then if we had 2 consectutive seasons in the Premiership then the City stand would either have an upper tier added to it, or completed demolished and replaced with a much big totally new version.

 

Doing it bit by bit is good because like last summers 1000 increase, the additional seats are not really noticed so ST holders who would maybe think of not renewing if they knew their was plenty of available seats, wouldn''t, yet more people would be able to get in so you''d have a scanario like this season where average ATT''s have gone up.

 

Like I said before the bigger the ground then the more chance of bigger crowds which with the stats showing that Norwich is one of the most likely clubs to do this, which then means that we as a club become more attractive and more profitable whcih means more chance of onfield success which is what we all want.

 

Also having the bigger capacity would put the club in a better chance of getting European/World cup games if England ever got one of these Championships and lets face it Norwich would of been a more fitting and justified venue for a World cup than Milton Keynes and Plymouth (prospective 2018 England World cup venues) put together!

 

Without an eventual increase to 35,000 plus we''d always be the poor relations in the Premiership which would make the job of establishing the club at the level more difficult.

 

Its not long ago that the club wouldn''t have needed the current 27,000 capacity. When the capacity was 21,000. The club has grown and got a lot bigger than what we''cve ever been before even though the team in the past have been better!

 

Oh yeah and apparently Bowket said that the club have had a lot of new applications for season tickets for next season which has surprised them