In Support Of Sian Massey

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,412]

The thing is with banter in the workplace angle is that she wasn''t there to partake/respond/join in. I still think the comments were patronising at least and spiteful at worst. I''m sure Ms Massey is overwhelmed by all the attention this is getting, I don''t she is either courting support or is expecting any the fact is Gray and Keys were out of order.

[ncfcstar 287]

[quote user="Nexus_Canary"]Frankly this entire matter is a joke and Miss Massey is probably sat at home rather embarrassed and just wanting to do her job!I mean, they took her off her game because they thought it might detract from the focus of the game? Frankly if I was Massey I would be more insulted by that than a pair of bigots.And I''m sure she had to put up with MUCH worse week in week out by fans.

The whole thing is a farce and a thread for this is ridiculous.Frankly everyone waving their pink Girl power flags should be ashamed of themselves![/quote][;)]Personally, she doesn''t need anyone to back her up/give support.  However people want to look at it to seem whiter and white, the crux of the situation is that she is involved in a male sport and however unfortunate it is will have to face the subsequent consequences.  I personally think it''s a bit strange that she wants to be involved in the first place, I have yet to see a female ref in rugby, or a female umpire in cricket - yet no-one makes a fuss about that.She doesn''t need anyone sticking up for her, or supporting her.  I haven''t seen a thread that states in support of Howard Webb et al.

[Woman in the Stands (WITS) 0]

[quote user="Wings of a sparrow"]The thing is with banter in the workplace angle is that she wasn''t there to partake/respond/join in. I still think the comments were patronising at least and spiteful at worst. I''m sure Ms Massey is overwhelmed by all the attention this is getting, I don''t she is either courting support or is expecting any the fact is Gray and Keys were out of order.[/quote]The same occurs in the workplace ie the person being ripped isn''t always present either. I speak from experience.

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

[quote user="ncfcstar"][;)]Personally, she doesn''t need anyone to back her up/give support.  However people want to look at it to seem whiter and white, the crux of the situation is that she is involved in a male sport and however unfortunate it is will have to face the subsequent consequences.  I personally think it''s a bit strange that she wants to be involved in the first place, I have yet to see a female ref in rugby, or a female umpire in cricket - yet no-one makes a fuss about that.She doesn''t need anyone sticking up for her, or supporting her.  I haven''t seen a thread that states in support of Howard Webb et al.[/quote]Despite not sharing the Colonels secret recipie with non employees ! I will agree you make a good point

[Nuff Said 5,093]

[quote user="Captain Fantastic"]Does anyone remember the Derby away game earlier this season in which she was assistant in. I remember looking at officials appointed thinking oh no. But when it got to the game she was very assured, and in fact it was the male assistant on the other side who seemed to be a complete t0sser[/quote]I remember saying at the tine to my mate (a Derby supporter) "he''s crap (the linesman near our end, he really was awful) but he''s been spot on all match" and then realising later the one I liked was a woman, didn''t realise she was one and the same.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="CaptnCanary"]

Shack, if you do not believe this was just a bit of harmless banter and meant to be a little joke between colleagues who are also mates, then I suggest you try looking at this another way.

Do you honestly believe that either Gray or Keys genuinely thought that Sian Massey had been appointed for a Premier League match but did not know the offside rule? Clearly nobody in their right mind, sexist or not, would genuinely believe that. So if they knew that she must have known the rules in order to get the job then it follows that this absolutely MUST have been just a bit of a laugh the same as people have about similar things everyday. The fact that it was in the work place is irrelevant. In most work places, especially male dominated ones, this type of banter is common place and is just a little light entertainment to help pass the day. It is considered perfectly acceptible by anyone except the terribly thin skinned. Usually the women in these work places, when the subject of such banter, are happy to go along with it and see the funny side as they know there is no malice or insult intended. They will often join in on the joke with a retort. There is no doubt in my mind that this type or banter is what Gray and Keys were endulging in. Furthermore, banter is not restricted to commenting on females - anybody is a target! In fact I am sure that it is usually one of the men who is getting wound up or the mickey taken. My point is that it is not a sexist past-time.

[/quote]

I''ve given my views on this already (maybe it was on the other thread) but I''ll reiterate briefly. If Andy Gray had just made the comment "Somebody better get down there and explain the offside rule to her" then it would have been pretty clear that this was meant as a joke. Not a very funny joke in my opinion but I think he could have just about ridden out the storm by apologising for any offence caused to Sian Massey and making it clear he was just messing around. However, anybody who has listened to the recording will realise that this is only part of the issue. The comments become more and more bitter as the conversation progresses culminating in the rather pathetic ''Do me a favour love!'' from Keys. You say it''s just a joke but to me it sounds like two bitter men bemoaning the fact that women can now get involved in the game.

The ''banter defence'' that I''ve seen plenty of today is also completely misleading. If work colleagues are sitting around ripping the piss out of each other and everyone has a chance to join in that is banter. If it is done behind somebody''s back with no intention of letting them in on the banter then that is not. Some people might call it bullying which most employers would frown upon in this day and age.

[quote user="CaptnCanary"]

The fact Gray has been sacked is in my view completely pointless and not at all a reflection on him as a person. It is unfortunate that this was recorded and put into the public domain, no doubt by some uppity bra burner who in 30 years time will realise that she was wrong all along when she is struggling to hold down a career, and maintain a home and bring up children. There was a documentary on some time about some of the original women involved in the equal rights movement. It was quite intriguing how all of the ones interviewed now feel that they were completely wrong to fight for women have careers because now they are older they realise how much harder it has made life for millions of women. They feel that there was a very good reason for the ''tradional'' family roles and that they are not so bad after all.

I am all for women doing what ever job they like as long as they are up to the job and equal to a male alternative. The same goes the other way around. But when going into a male dominated area they have got to expect a bit of winding up and think of it as the bit of a laugh that it is. By the way, how many fans do you think have and will make comments aimed at Sian during games? Should they all be arrested or sacked from their jobs? Or should Sian just smile and get on with it, in the same way that most male players take a bashing from the crowd sometimes and get on with it?

[/quote]

This documentary sounds fascinating but I''m not really sure what it has to do with the case in point. Sian Massey should be able to go about her job in the same way as any other lino without any special treatment, either positive or negative, due to her sex. Any fans who have a dig at any games where she is running the line will not be at work so they are not going to get sacked and as being a sexist tw@t is not a criminal offence I don''t think they''ll be getting arrested either.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,738]

doesn''t anyone else think that all the furore that has surrounded this in the last 72 hours sort of proves that women shouldn''t be involved in mens football?!

[Woman in the Stands (WITS) 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]doesn''t anyone else think that all the furore that has surrounded this in the last 72 hours sort of proves that women shouldn''t be involved in mens football?![/quote]Why? Because she proved she could do the job as well as some men and better than others? [:)]

[shefcanary 2,390]

[quote user="Nuff Said"][quote user="Captain Fantastic"]Does anyone remember the Derby away game earlier this season in which she was assistant in. I remember looking at officials appointed thinking oh no. But when it got to the game she was very assured, and in fact it was the male assistant on the other side who seemed to be a complete t0sser[/quote]I remember saying at the tine to my mate (a Derby supporter) "he''s crap (the linesman near our end, he really was awful) but he''s been spot on all match" and then realising later the one I liked was a woman, didn''t realise she was one and the same.[/quote]Same with me - strange to say something positive about a lino in the first place.  The one on the John St stand at Sheff Utd Saturday was as bad as the one at Derby for instance.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,412]

No, I''ve not seen or heard anywhere that she is a bad linesman. The furore was caused by ill advised comments by a couple of presenters who frankly should have known better and the whole thing hjas been blown out of proportioin. I hope that she returns soon. Whatever you think, sex equality rules extend to our beloved game.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,738]

[quote user="Wings of a sparrow"]No, I''ve not seen or heard anywhere that she is a bad linesman. The furore was caused by ill advised comments by a couple of presenters who frankly should have known better and the whole thing hjas been blown out of proportioin. I hope that she returns soon. Whatever you think, sex equality rules extend to our beloved game.[/quote]

yes ,of course that there should be sex equality, but surely it must be seen that, unlike most other workplaces , the football pitch in a ''mens'' football match surely is one place where such ''quality'' can''t exist??.  It is a male environment (they are the laws of the game) and and such everyones involvment with that match (officials included) should be male.  Just as the womens game should be officiated by women.

[Lambert is King 0]

IMO there was one very big reason why Gray especially had to go - he is supposed to commentate on a game and in no way be biasecause of his views on women in football could he seriously have done this ? Listen to the commentary of the match the immediate assumption was she had got the decision wrong, not that was close.

I am sure when Massey entered the game and moved to the level she is at she realised it would be twice as tough as for any guy, so I must say she has done something for women to be proud of. She must be good as to get to premier league you have to go through all the leagues and managers make comments in reports that help / hinder her progress. Can any of you honestly say you knew the name Sian Massey before Saturday, or if you did could you have described her ? I think not in most cases reason she did her job well so why does Gray make out that she is not capable.

I hope Andy Gray has not ruint her career as before this nobody really cared because she was good, now because of Gray if she makes a mistake however small she will be crucified, tottaly unfair and I hope if this happens she sues Gray for every penny possible. 

If as many of you as are saying you side with Gray where are all the previous threads saying women should not be allowed in the game. There will be a time when a woman makes it into league football, then what ?

One last thing women were marketed into football and the family in the end became the saviour of football and the beginning of the modern game. I dont know the exact % but I am sure if you want women out of the game our gates at FCR would fall to below 20000. Take a look around our club women are now the norm and we have a lot of women coaches in what was FITC. Our club also has a huge number of girls that play football so I suggest some of you get real and move with the modern game. In countries like America and China womens games get bigger gates than the men

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,738]

[quote user="Lambert is King"]

IMO there was one very big reason why Gray especially had to go - he is supposed to commentate on a game and in no way be biasecause of his views on women in football could he seriously have done this ? Listen to the commentary of the match the immediate assumption was she had got the decision wrong, not that was close.

I am sure when Massey entered the game and moved to the level she is at she realised it would be twice as tough as for any guy, so I must say she has done something for women to be proud of. She must be good as to get to premier league you have to go through all the leagues and managers make comments in reports that help / hinder her progress. Can any of you honestly say you knew the name Sian Massey before Saturday, or if you did could you have described her ? I think not in most cases reason she did her job well so why does Gray make out that she is not capable.

I hope Andy Gray has not ruint her career as before this nobody really cared because she was good, now because of Gray if she makes a mistake however small she will be crucified, tottaly unfair and I hope if this happens she sues Gray for every penny possible. 

If as many of you as are saying you side with Gray where are all the previous threads saying women should not be allowed in the game. There will be a time when a woman makes it into league football, then what ?

One last thing women were marketed into football and the family in the end became the saviour of football and the beginning of the modern game. I dont know the exact % but I am sure if you want women out of the game our gates at FCR would fall to below 20000. Take a look around our club women are now the norm and we have a lot of women coaches in what was FITC. Our club also has a huge number of girls that play football so I suggest some of you get real and move with the modern game. In countries like America and China womens games get bigger gates than the men

[/quote]

that can''t actually happen.......as is stated in the laws of the game.   This is my point about it not being a equal society, unlike other workplaces.  Mens football IS a male dominted environment by definition.

......for the same reasons why a man couldn''t play in womens football

[Marty 0]

[quote user="Lambert is King"]

IMO there was one very big reason why Gray especially had to go - he is supposed to commentate on a game and in no way be biasecause of his views on women in football could he seriously have done this ? Listen to the commentary of the match the immediate assumption was she had got the decision wrong, not that was close.

I am sure when Massey entered the game and moved to the level she is at she realised it would be twice as tough as for any guy, so I must say she has done something for women to be proud of. She must be good as to get to premier league you have to go through all the leagues and managers make comments in reports that help / hinder her progress. Can any of you honestly say you knew the name Sian Massey before Saturday, or if you did could you have described her ? I think not in most cases reason she did her job well so why does Gray make out that she is not capable.

I hope Andy Gray has not ruint her career as before this nobody really cared because she was good, now because of Gray if she makes a mistake however small she will be crucified, tottaly unfair and I hope if this happens she sues Gray for every penny possible. 

If as many of you as are saying you side with Gray where are all the previous threads saying women should not be allowed in the game. There will be a time when a woman makes it into league football, then what ?

One last thing women were marketed into football and the family in the end became the saviour of football and the beginning of the modern game. I dont know the exact % but I am sure if you want women out of the game our gates at FCR would fall to below 20000. Take a look around our club women are now the norm and we have a lot of women coaches in what was FITC. Our club also has a huge number of girls that play football so I suggest some of you get real and move with the modern game. In countries like America and China womens games get bigger gates than the men

[/quote]So what, womens football is popular in the USA and the mens games isn''t? The USA won the womens world cup and it got a lot of tv coverage (female player removing top after scopring goal), becuase of this many American blokes associated footy with women. Plus they are very patriotic and fear for their culture if a foreign sport infiltrates their own tedious American sports like American football, baseball and hockey etc.As for women officials getting a tougher task because they are female, well I disagree. They may have to put up with slightly different critisisms / abuse, but in some respect I would imagine guys would tone it down somewhat when giving them an earfull. I don''t see any threads on here questioning the moral debate of whether or not we should questioning the parentage of male linesman week in / week out. So if a male linesman can get called all manner of abusive terms every Sarturday (and they do) then why not let the ladies gets some too? afterall, isn''t that proper equality?   

[Harry 0]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]This was not ''a private conversation''. The comments were made in the workplace and therefore Sky have the right to deal with them as their employers. If I was caught having ''a private conversation'' with a work colleague about my female team leader and gave the opinion that she was unsuitable for the role as ''she''s probably thinking about shoes all of the time'' it would be frowned upon. If I had already received a warning about such behaviour and it affected my ability to do my job** then I could well lose my job.[/quote]That''s where the problems start, Sky do have the right to deal with them as their employers but it has been done in the public domain. They were recorded making the comments so didn''t have a leg to stand on but if the "whistle blower" who leaked the recording to the Mail had let the management at Sky deal with it without the press being involved Sian Massey would have been able to carry on running the line without all this fuss.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="Harry"][quote user="Shack Attack"]This was not ''a private conversation''. The comments were made in the workplace and therefore Sky have the right to deal with them as their employers. If I was caught having ''a private conversation'' with a work colleague about my female team leader and gave the opinion that she was unsuitable for the role as ''she''s probably thinking about shoes all of the time'' it would be frowned upon. If I had already received a warning about such behaviour and it affected my ability to do my job** then I could well lose my job.[/quote]

That''s where the problems start, Sky do have the right to deal with them as their employers but it has been done in the public domain.

They were recorded making the comments so didn''t have a leg to stand on but if the "whistle blower" who leaked the recording to the Mail had let the management at Sky deal with it without the press being involved Sian Massey would have been able to carry on running the line without all this fuss.
[/quote]

 

I sort of agree. But a company with as much influence as Sky who''s main appeal is showing live coverage of the nations most popular sportl are never going to be able to sack their two main presenters without the reasons for those actions getting out. Sky are pushing additional services at the moment (Sky Atlantic and Sky Arts in particular) that are not primarily aimed at their core customers. I think that by sacking Gray and pushing Keys towards the door they are trying to distance themselves a little from their reputation as a broadcaster that caters mainly for football loving blokes. That''s their call and time will tell whether it is a successful course of action. If Keys and Gray feel they are victims of this push and have been harshly treated then they will need to prove they have been unfairly dismissed and from what we''ve heard so far I think they''re going to struggle with that.