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Why has Cardiff not sold out?

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Purple, i believe the differential between Leeds and Ipswich was down to a bigger segregated area due to the trouble last season. All the club can do is sell out the home areas- away supports are notoriously fickle and hard to predict. I know for a fact that QPR was a total home sell-out as i ended up being in Norwich on that day (i was supposed to be going away), so went down to the ground a few minutes before kick-off and there wasn`t a single ticket to be had.

I think it would be a safe bet that should we remain in the top 6 the new seats will look a good investment come the end of the season. You also have to factor in variables such as big cup games (if we ever have one again.....) and play-offs, which would both sell out and speed up the recovery of the initial outlay.

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Purple, I don''t get why you are arguing about this. Surely, if the home area has sold out in 5 matches, then all of the extra seats in the home section (most or all of the 1100 I expect) have been used 5 times this season - that can''t be wrong can it? Assuming 5 home sell outs is correct that is...

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Lambert is King"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Lambert is King"]

McNally said it would take 3 years to recoup the cost based on 2 sell outs per year. We are now way ahead of that figure as you must also remember some gates have lots more Norwich supporters in and not a lot of away supporters. The extra seats have all been used now on 5 occassions.

[/quote]

 

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I''m sorry but this simply isn''t true. The extra seats have not been all used five times. We have had one sell-out this season (Ipswich). That means the extra capacity has been used up entirely only once.

As I posted earlier, there have only been four games this season when the attendance was above last season''s effective capacity of 25,500. So far from the extra seats been totally used five times, they have been fully used once and partly used three other times.

 

[/quote]

We have had 2 complete sell outs Leeds and Ipswich and 3 home sell outs QPR Sheff Utd Middlesborough. All of these games had buy back and we could have sold the away allocation as well.  I suspect other than parts of the family area we will have another one tomorrow. You must also remember that other games would have sold some of these seats. And yes McNally said 3 years to repay so not sure exactly which bit is not correct. You are suggesting McNally does not know what he is doing ? he has increased casual prices by upwards of 50% and increased gates substanstially. If he was an idiot he would have followed the fans advice and put the capacity upto 35000. The pressure for extra seating came from fans did it not 

[/quote]

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Now I get it. If the Ipswich game is a sell-out (which it roughly is) at 26,532 then the Leeds game is also a sell-out even though the attendance is 217 less than that. And if it''s a home sell-out (assuming you''re right about that) then that counts as a total sell-out, even though the away support is nothing like sold out and the ground is nothing like full.

Faced with logic like that, I know when I''m beaten.

 

[/quote]There were less seats sold to Leeds Fans as the seats at the front of their area was netted off to stop them going onto the pitch, against Ipswich these seats weren''t netted off and were sold hence all available tickets for both games were sold, there were just different amounts available.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]Purple, i believe the differential between Leeds and Ipswich was down to a bigger segregated area due to the trouble last season. All the club can do is sell out the home areas- away supports are notoriously fickle and hard to predict. I know for a fact that QPR was a total home sell-out as i ended up being in Norwich on that day (i was supposed to be going away), so went down to the ground a few minutes before kick-off and there wasn`t a single ticket to be had. I think it would be a safe bet that should we remain in the top 6 the new seats will look a good investment come the end of the season. You also have to factor in variables such as big cup games (if we ever have one again.....) and play-offs, which would both sell out and speed up the recovery of the initial outlay.[/quote]

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Mr.Carrow, if that is true about a bigger cordoned-off area for the Leeds game then I''ll happily accept that as a sell-out (or all but) as well. But is it entirely true that away support is hard to predict? I thought the away clubs asked for a specific allocation, so we could judge how much of the away area in the Jarrold to give over to them. And so how much extra, if any, to make available for casual Norwich fans. I also thought (this may be a failing memory) that QPR,  having asked for X number of tickets, then returned quite a number, presumably in time for us to sell to our own on Saturday morning.

 

Obviously, though, if the away club does greatly overestimate how many tickets it can sell then there will be gaps that can''t be filled that way. But that gets us back to the argument that our ticketing policy this season is pricing away fans out of the market...

 

Anyway I must stress I''m not opposed to the extra seats. I''ve never doubted they would sooner or later pay their way. Possibly sooner if, as you say, we have some crucial end-of-season games or even a play-off semi-final. My only aim has been to provide an underpining of fact in what has been a season-long argument sometimes lacking in fact.

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[quote user="City1st"]£300 a seat ! Carta Schmarta ! Farque me, that would mean that it would have cost £2,400,000 to put the seats in the new South Stand - that''s about a third of the cost. It would also mean that it would take around ten games to get the money back - however it would be a few more games if you factor in kids prices and VAT liability on tickets.[/quote]

Its not quite that simple to works out construction costs.

Unfortunately the previous government kept driving labour prices higher and higher.

I would also guess the club always goes direct to the dirty snakes that are RGC, and not get competitive prices for the work. Again leading to higher price, as they know they have the job.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]Purple, i believe the differential between Leeds and Ipswich was down to a bigger segregated area due to the trouble last season. All the club can do is sell out the home areas- away supports are notoriously fickle and hard to predict. I know for a fact that QPR was a total home sell-out as i ended up being in Norwich on that day (i was supposed to be going away), so went down to the ground a few minutes before kick-off and there wasn`t a single ticket to be had. I think it would be a safe bet that should we remain in the top 6 the new seats will look a good investment come the end of the season. You also have to factor in variables such as big cup games (if we ever have one again.....) and play-offs, which would both sell out and speed up the recovery of the initial outlay.[/quote]

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Mr.Carrow, if that is true about a bigger cordoned-off area for the Leeds game then I''ll happily accept that as a sell-out (or all but) as well. But is it entirely true that away support is hard to predict? I thought the away clubs asked for a specific allocation, so we could judge how much of the away area in the Jarrold to give over to them. And so how much extra, if any, to make available for casual Norwich fans. I also thought (this may be a failing memory) that QPR,  having asked for X number of tickets, then returned quite a number, presumably in time for us to sell to our own on Saturday morning.

 

Obviously, though, if the away club does greatly overestimate how many tickets it can sell then there will be gaps that can''t be filled that way. But that gets us back to the argument that our ticketing policy this season is pricing away fans out of the market...

 

Anyway I must stress I''m not opposed to the extra seats. I''ve never doubted they would sooner or later pay their way. Possibly sooner if, as you say, we have some crucial end-of-season games or even a play-off semi-final. My only aim has been to provide an underpining of fact in what has been a season-long argument sometimes lacking in fact.

[/quote]

If you reduce the tickets for the away fans you must also reduce them for home fans. As we are selling out at the moment it would cost the club in the region of £50000 per game to subsidise this. Which player shall we sell to subsidise away fans ? As has alreadbeen pointed out by McNally cheap football means administration as we were not even covering our overheads. QPR returned tickets well before the game and we sold them all. Like I said previously if you buy a season ticket and look at it across the board NCFC is amongst the cheapest in the championship. The players drive the prices that we pay so please ask Holt ect to take a pay cut bet they wont !

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It is that simple !

My point was that working on the same basis of £300 a seat - then 8000 seats equals £2,400,000

I''m not too sure what yiu mean by government driving up the cost of labour - perhaps you have overdosed on the Daily Mail.

£300 is, if it is true, is an exessive amount. I state this as a relative iof mine s a quantity surveyor and I''d earlier briefly ran the figure past him and his words were ''way, way excessive'' - or perhaps the government have not driven up the labour costs he uses.

However it is all academic as we do not know the exact cost of fitting these extra seats.

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I''m sure that by kick of tomorrow the only  home seats not sold will be those in the Wensum infill of the City stand which is always the last section of the ground to sell out!

 

If the club has serious ambitions (which it has now with Mcnally) then the capacity of Carrow Rod has to be put up bit by bit when finances allow and eventually hopefully end up with a final 35-40,000 figure - one which Mcnally has himself quoted in public last year.

 

The fact the S cum who rarely get 20,000 fo League game had the best part of 30,000 the other night shows what we''d get if we were in the Premiership or for big games in this Division.

 

Therefore I think the 1000 capacity increase last summer was justified and already the extra seats are getting useage. The heavy prices for casuals  works when we''re doing well but if we have a poor spell similar to those down the A140 our crowds will drop.                                                     

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Who cares if the stadium isn''t sold-out this afternoon when 2nd plays 3rd in the league?

 

As long as the club premiership quality restaurants and exec boxes are busy.....profits will be astronomical...... 

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PC thanks for your figures. According to your figures the extra seats cost 330k and worst case scenario we have sold an extra 2900 seats in half a season then that is an extra 180k a season. Assuming an effective post tax interest rate of 6% then that is an effective cash proft of 160k per year available to spend on players so the capex on seats does indeed make sense just like the capex by the previous regime which also generated more cash for players!!! Not massive amounts but probably pays for a squad player.

You are wrong though that it is necessarily right to reduce the price of tickets as for instance selling 5000 casual tickets at 30 pounds generates 150k compared to selling 5500 at 25 pounds generates 137k.

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

Who cares if the stadium isn''t sold-out this afternoon when 2nd plays 3rd in the league?

 

As long as the club premiership quality restaurants and exec boxes are busy.....profits will be astronomical...... 

[/quote]

But the only seats not sold ( if any ) will be the cheapest in the ground. Mcnally gets it right again 

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[quote user="City1st"]It is that simple !

My point was that working on the same basis of £300 a seat - then 8000 seats equals £2,400,000

I''m not too sure what yiu mean by government driving up the cost of labour - perhaps you have overdosed on the Daily Mail.

£300 is, if it is true, is an exessive amount. I state this as a relative iof mine s a quantity surveyor and I''d earlier briefly ran the figure past him and his words were ''way, way excessive'' - or perhaps the government have not driven up the labour costs he uses.

However it is all academic as we do not know the exact cost of fitting these extra seats.[/quote]

The price of £300 is including some minor ground work required at the front of the jarrold. the seats then have to be fabricated to fit the gap. Also its worth remembering that the seats are in more premium areas as opposed to the family area

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[quote user="T"]

PC thanks for your figures. According to your figures the extra seats cost 330k and worst case scenario we have sold an extra 2900 seats in half a season then that is an extra 180k a season. Assuming an effective post tax interest rate of 6% then that is an effective cash proft of 160k per year available to spend on players so the capex on seats does indeed make sense just like the capex by the previous regime which also generated more cash for players!!! Not massive amounts but probably pays for a squad player.

You are wrong though that it is necessarily right to reduce the price of tickets as for instance selling 5000 casual tickets at 30 pounds generates 150k compared to selling 5500 at 25 pounds generates 137k.

[/quote]

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T, a few friendly corrections. Firstly, they are only partly my figures. They are based on someone else''s assertion that the new seats cost £300 per seat. I said I had no idea if that figure is right.

 

Secondly, you have doubled my figure of £87,870 to produce £180,000 for the season. But that £87,870 figure is for 13 games and we only have ten (or is is 11?!) left. And we have just had four big games in a row - Leeds, Ipswich, Sheffield Utd (Xmas) and QPR (New Year). There are some distinctly low-profile games coming up. Bear in mind we had under the 25,500 tipping point for Middlesbrough.

 

Thirdly, as to whether we should reduce prices,what I predicted months ago what has come true - that casual fans (and particluarly pre-adults and away fans) would be driven away by high prices. That has happened. I also made the point that the kind of calculation you and others have made fails to take into account a crucial factor, which is that unless you keep attracting the next generation by way of affordable football for youngsters (initially hooking them with cheapish casual tickets) you will end up losing out finacancially. Your calculation might make sense for one season, but less so thereafter.

 

Two final points. This can really only be assessed at the end of the season. Secondly, and this is the long-term point, we are still effectively in the Smith and Jones and Doncaster and Cullen era of affordable family football. Most of their policies have still been in place for this season. The exception is the scrapping of the pre-adult casual category.


It is next season that the promised dismantling of AFF really starts, with another rise in prices, the scrapping of the ability to pay in advance, and the raising in one fell swoop of the OAP age to 65. Affecting a whole five-year band of season ticket holders.

 

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[quote user="Lambert is King"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

Who cares if the stadium isn''t sold-out this afternoon when 2nd plays 3rd in the league?

 

As long as the club premiership quality restaurants and exec boxes are busy.....profits will be astronomical...... 

[/quote]

But the only seats not sold ( if any ) will be the cheapest in the ground. Mcnally gets it right again 

[/quote]

Who actually cares about cheap empty seats.....? More elbow room for me in my expensive pew....price the poor out of the stadium.....don''t want those peasants, oiks and great unwashed mixing with my kind of true fan.....We should also prohibit these folk from entering the stadium with their own refreshments.....ban the carrier bags of carrion at Carrow.....NOW!

 

Hopefully and one day, we who enjoy the social gathering and guffawing after shovelling exquisite pre-match fine cuisine down our grand gullets - before being entertained by the Gladiatoresque battle performed on the pitch....Shall all be seated behind thick glass in glorious superbly decorated and comfortable surroundings, and not having to suffer the cold damp conditions or sit amongst the chavvy, scruffy and paltry paid leeches of society....It will be a theatre of sheer comfort that allows me to fritter away my copious amounts of disposable income with fellow affluent pillars of the community and stalwarts of society....

 

Mr Mac.....I salute you Sir!  Keep up the good-work!

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PC - I do not know  if 300 a seat is reasonable either but it does not appear unreasonable. I have just doubed your revenue figure and agree the biggest home games are gone but I think your 25,500 for calcualating incremental revenue is probably low as that is a theoretical mamimum effective capacity as some people will not go if they can not seats together where they want. Also I think last season the crowds increased over the season which again maybe the case if we are going for promotion. However, it is somewhat academic because even if we take your incremetal revenue to date and don''t sell one  more extra ticket then it is a 27% return this year compared to a 6% effective post-tax cost of capital. i.e. it still looks like a very good decision to invest in more seats.

On seat pricing you should set the price which maximises revenue by charging each individual the maximum they are willing to pay. This is commonly done by setting age discounts which give an indication of disposable income and having seats available at different prices. Accordingly, it does make sense to introduce higher price lounge seating and also to remove the strange long term seat price reductions and the 60-65 discount. On the same basis I agree that removing the pre-adult discount price does seem an odd decision.

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[quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="Lambert is King"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

Who cares if the stadium isn''t sold-out this afternoon when 2nd plays 3rd in the league?

 

As long as the club premiership quality restaurants and exec boxes are busy.....profits will be astronomical...... 

[/quote]

But the only seats not sold ( if any ) will be the cheapest in the ground. Mcnally gets it right again 

[/quote]

Who actually cares about cheap empty seats.....? More elbow room for me in my expensive pew....price the poor out of the stadium.....don''t want those peasants, oiks and great unwashed mixing with my kind of true fan.....We should also prohibit these folk from entering the stadium with their own refreshments.....ban the carrier bags of carrion at Carrow.....NOW!

 

Hopefully and one day, we who enjoy the social gathering and guffawing after shovelling exquisite pre-match fine cuisine down our grand gullets - before being entertained by the Gladiatoresque battle performed on the pitch....Shall all be seated behind thick glass in glorious superbly decorated and comfortable surroundings, and not having to suffer the cold damp conditions or sit amongst the chavvy, scruffy and paltry paid leeches of society....It will be a theatre of sheer comfort that allows me to fritter away my copious amounts of disposable income with fellow affluent pillars of the community and stalwarts of society....

 

Mr Mac.....I salute you Sir!  Keep up the good-work!

[/quote]

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[quote user="T"]

On seat pricing you should set the price which maximises revenue by charging each individual the maximum they are willing to pay. This is commonly done by setting age discounts which give an indication of disposable income and having seats available at different prices. Accordingly, it does make sense to introduce higher price lounge seating and also to remove the strange long term seat price reductions and the 60-65 discount. On the same basis I agree that removing the pre-adult discount price does seem an odd decision.

[/quote]

 

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T, to that all I can say is that I have this "friend" who would willingly now have paid the £296 for their 2015/16 season ticket but may well not - even by selling their entire family into white slavery and disposing of all their material possessions - be able when the spring of 2015 comes around to afford the £97.5m it seems likely it will then cost...

 

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Nothing against offering long term discount arrangements per se but I understood some people had some excessive long term discount arrangments which will not be continued.

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[quote user="T"]Nothing against offering long term discount arrangements per se but I understood some people had some excessive long term discount arrangments which will not be continued.[/quote]

Yes, it definitely looks like season-ticket holders could be feeling some financial pain next season. They are far too cheap when casual tickets are going for a comparatively ridiculously high price.

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[quote user="T"]Nothing against offering long term discount arrangements per se but I understood some people had some excessive long term discount arrangments which will not be continued.[/quote]

 

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T, there were some little-known legacy discounts for people who, for example, had been forced to move when the South Stand was being rebuilt. And they did seem absurd. And they have been scrapped.

 

But so have the much more general long-term discounts for paying ahead, such as my "friend" used, which had the advantage of being certain future income on which the club knew it could rely. And on which it could borrow money.

 

If, as you say, you were in favour of keeping those then I''m afraid there is already one very significant move on ticketing policy by the new regime with which you disagree.

 

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I always make an assessment of a financial decision on whether something makes financial sense or not. So for instance I consistently supported much of the historical investment in fixed assets as I do the new seats because the figures indicate it generates extra cash for players.

I agree with you and disagree with the Board about getting rid of pre-adult discounts.

I agree with you that long term discout arrangements make sense but it depends on the extent of the discounts.

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As much as mcnally has done for this club, he is slowly driving away real fans as once again a club with great history falls the the corporates. I know for a fact from people who used to sit in the snakepit refuse to go any more due to his ridiculous demands, especially against certain members of my stand and how they like to show their support. Yes they are casual''s but that doesn''t mean they should be treated as sub human. Might as well turn all the stands into boxes where you can have a lovely meal a glass of champagne and all be suited. Then perhaps we can charge 100 pound at least a game. MCnally = DIsgrace

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[quote user="snakepitnr1"]As much as mcnally has done for this club, he is slowly driving away real fans as once again a club with great history falls the the corporates. I know for a fact from people who used to sit in the snakepit refuse to go any more due to his ridiculous demands, especially against certain members of my stand and how they like to show their support. Yes they are casual''s but that doesn''t mean they should be treated as sub human. Might as well turn all the stands into boxes where you can have a lovely meal a glass of champagne and all be suited. Then perhaps we can charge 100 pound at least a game. MCnally = DIsgrace[/quote]So are you saying that Season Ticket holders in the Snake Pit aren''t real fans?

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[quote user="Dan Druff"]£24 is the very maximum any match is worth in this division - anything above that is daylight robbery. I''m not at all surprised that this game hasn''t sold out.[/quote]

You contradict your argument. There were only two parts of the ground not sold out today and they were the two places where you could have had a discount today. Top of the Aviva stand was kids for free and the family area was almost empty despite the fact that it was the cheapest area today and you could have bought a season ticket there for as little as £32. Your pricing argument is just absurd, why did people pay so much to see an irrelevant game against Ipswich when they could have watched a far more important game today at the same price ? catch is there were more Norwich fans today watching.

Buy a season, ticket and football at FCR is way below £24 in fact below £20,the cheapest on balance in the championship. Why would we want to knock £15 of the prices today to get a few more people in today but lose the club £68000. Go and blame the players it is their wages that have created the situation. 

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]Were not in a recession.......Everyone still has money.

And ticket prices aren''t ''far too high'' Earlier in the season, someone posted up averages from all the championship clubs, and although we were high up, we weren''t the highest!

Its quite simple, if its too much for you don''t go. The club are trying to make enough money, to pay of debt and to give Lambert money to spend on new players, charging £15 for a 2nd vs 3rd game in the championship, wouldn''t help that ..

(even £25... 25 x 26,500 = £662, 500......... £33 x 20,000= £660,000... So even at 20,000, which is less that will be sold, the club will be making only a little bit less, but add the extra 4,000 on top of that (there will be at least 24,000) Thats another £132,000.... Oh look more expensive prices, even if 1/2000 less people, makes more money!)[/quote]Everyone still has money? You don''t sit in the House of Lords do you by any chance? What a moronic and thoughtless thing to say.We may not be in a recession, but we are still in the early stages of recovery. What that effectively means is that tens of billions of pounds have been sliced off of our GDP and very little of that has come back. There are currently 1.1 million more unemployed people than there were in early 2008, most who do work are going without pay rises despite mammoth fuel and food inflation over the past two years, anybody with half a brain and a mortgage is worried about potential interest rate rises. Around 8% of the labour force (2.5m) have no work at all, and that figure does not include the children of that 8% who rely on there parents income. That figure is expected to rise to 3m by the end of this year, you had better cross your fingers and hope that you are not one of the next 500,000; chances are that a few people on this board will be.Irrespective of whether or not I agree with the price rises, I happen to agree with them, I would encourage you to approach such subjects with more sensitivity. Maybe you have not experienced redundancy, or do not have a mortgage to worry about, or kids to keep in news shoes. Norwich is a service economy, it just so happens that the service sector is the one which is NOT growing and could in fact fall further; the economic situation has the potential to cause real problems in Norfolk over the next couple of years, do you have any idea what goes on in your county? Do you know how many local businesses will fail if RAF Marham goes? I am lucky enough to have reached a level of financial security which would effectively mean that I would never have to work again, I am not even 30 yet. But I will never stick my head up my backside so far that I can make sweeping statements about the financial situation of others, when you have to make 25% of your own workforce redundant the situation becomes very real. I cross my fingers for you, that you are not one of the ones to go this year. That said, it might bring you down to earth a little.

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[quote user="Harry"][quote user="snakepitnr1"]As much as mcnally has done for this club, he is slowly driving away real fans as once again a club with great history falls the the corporates. I know for a fact from people who used to sit in the snakepit refuse to go any more due to his ridiculous demands, especially against certain members of my stand and how they like to show their support. Yes they are casual''s but that doesn''t mean they should be treated as sub human. Might as well turn all the stands into boxes where you can have a lovely meal a glass of champagne and all be suited. Then perhaps we can charge 100 pound at least a game. MCnally = DIsgrace[/quote]So are you saying that Season Ticket holders in the Snake Pit aren''t real fans?[/quote]

Im saying the opposite. Many the snakepit are real fans but are getting driven away by mcnally and many will not renew next season promotion or not. If you dont believe me sit in the snakepit go to the bar at half time and chat to the regulars. They are fed up about certain things and all is not well.

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[quote user="snakepitnr1"][quote user="Harry"][quote user="snakepitnr1"]As much as mcnally has done for this club, he is slowly driving away real fans as once again a club with great history falls the the corporates. I know for a fact from people who used to sit in the snakepit refuse to go any more due to his ridiculous demands, especially against certain members of my stand and how they like to show their support. Yes they are casual''s but that doesn''t mean they should be treated as sub human. Might as well turn all the stands into boxes where you can have a lovely meal a glass of champagne and all be suited. Then perhaps we can charge 100 pound at least a game. MCnally = DIsgrace[/quote]So are you saying that Season Ticket holders in the Snake Pit aren''t real fans?[/quote]

Im saying the opposite. Many the snakepit are real fans but are getting driven away by mcnally and many will not renew next season promotion or not. If you dont believe me sit in the snakepit go to the bar at half time and chat to the regulars. They are fed up about certain things and all is not well.[/quote]I am a season ticket holder in the Snake Pit, I haven''t heard anyone near to me saying they won''t renew for next season.

I believe my season ticket is good value for money and I will pay for it monthly as I do now as since being made redundant I don''t have the same income as I used to have.

I have had to make sacrifices to be able to afford to keep going, I very rarely go out for a beer now (I do have one pre match though) and I have had to cut out the away games this season (did 10 last season) if you want to watch Norwich badly enough you will find ways to do it.

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I agree we will continue to watch norwich away but due to a number of things at home games being treated sub humanely like i said we wont renew our season tickets.

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