Punching AboveOur Weight WTF!

[ricardo 7,381]

[quote user="......and Smith must score."][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Canary_on_the Trent"]You''re missing the point ricardo, of course we should be a Premier League side but all things considered over recent years we are well ahead of where we can expect to be at this present moment of time.[/quote]I don''t think so. Surely the point is that we are nearer to where we should be at long last.[/quote]Can''t agree with your assessment I''m afraid Ricardo.Someone on here mentioned the mess we were in less than 18 months ago and we have overachieved since. I''ll bet no-one at Carrow Road on 8th August 2009 would have seriously predicted that we would be 5th in the Championship come Christmas 2010. In that respect, as a newly promoted club I think we most definitely are punching above our weight at the moment.This doesn''t of course mean that it won''t continue and if we were to do the same this term as Blackpool did last - if that wasn''t punching above their weight I don''t know what is - then I''ll be quite happy to be surprised and delighted come May 2011. [/quote]Conversely I''ll bet few at Carrow Road on Christmas 2007 would have seriously predicted that we would be relegated from the Championship 18 months later in May 2009. In that respect would you say that we were punching below our weight?It seems to me that this argument is between those who have a fifteen year perspective of this clubs position and those who have a 50 year perspective. I would not be surprised if those with a 15 year perspective put this clubs true position in the lower half of the Championship and by that token we would be punching above our weight. Those of us with a much longer perspective see it as lower Prem, upper Championship and thus have a different view of our punching weight..

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

Ricardo this has nothing to do with history. Your merely stating that that our average league position in the last 50years is low prem high champ, so this season we are on trend with history.

The factors are that our squad was built on a budget that was set for survival and not for a promotion push. So the boards expectation is survival - that''s are punching weight, and that''s why the board are prepared to gamble a bit in January if we are still exceeding expectations.

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

Our not are! Sorry!

[WeAreYellows49 0]

[quote user="lincoln canary"]

The squad on paper is an average championship one. With the squad we have, our transfer budget and the fact we have just secured promotion from a lower league means we are punching above our weight.

[/quote]

Totally agree.  If someone would have said that by Xmas 2010 we will be sitting pretty in the top part of the league, I would have taken that, in fact mid table and I would have been happy.

Not sure what people want, or where they think we should be, but IMHO we have done better than I expected so far.

Lambert is totally correct.

[ricardo 7,381]

[quote user="WeAreYellows49"][quote user="lincoln canary"]

The squad on paper is an average championship one. With the squad we have, our transfer budget and the fact we have just secured promotion from a lower league means we are punching above our weight.

[/quote]

Totally agree.  If someone would have said that by Xmas 2010 we will be sitting pretty in the top part of the league, I would have taken that, in fact mid table and I would have been happy.

Not sure what people want, or where they think we should be, but IMHO we have done better than I expected so far.

Lambert is totally correct.

[/quote]Better than I expected too.All that shows is how small our expectations have become.Nobody is happier than me that we are now somewhere near where we should be.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

Jesus, isn''t it obvious that this is Lambert''s pyschology.

 

We had another manager who kept saying we need "x" points to be safe from relegation when we were at the top / near the top of the league.

 

"Punching above our weight" = Lambert taking the pressure off.

 

IF we were to get promotion, and it is a massive IF.  I honestly belive it would be the making of great things to come and that is even if we came straight back down.  We could clear our debts in one fell swoop and we would have the parachute payments behind us on top of no debt / interest payments to sustain an even stronger push for promotion the following season.  Another season or two in the Premiership and we would be expanding the stadium.  With McNally et al we would not make the same mistakes we made the last time we went up. 

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

I agree with you Ricardo - as a club we are now getting back to where we should be.

Pre-season I said that PL would be aiming for the top 2 automatic promotion places. He''s a winner and after all, isn''t that the whole objective of playing the game?...

Aiming low in life typically delivers even lower performances - to give an example: when we got promoted to the Premiership Delia said a 17th-place finish would be good that season. We aimed low and got relegated. 

Given how well we''ve done so far this season, why would anyone in their right mind be satisfied with mid-table consolidation?

PL stating we first need to be safe from relegation is his way of tempering people''s expectations. If that creates space for the players to perform to an even higher standard, then great!

 

[WeAreYellows49 0]

We got relegated because we were s**t, we got promoted because we did well against poorer opposition. We are doing better than I could ever have dreamt, SO FAR. The season is long and lots could happen.

Are we a prem club, yes, are we a prem team, no.

We have no devine right to state ''we deserve to be premier league'' no more than any other club.

IF we were to get promoted then we will be a small fish in a big pond just like last time.

[Brendo 0]

[quote user="WeAreYellows49"]We got relegated because we were s**t, we got promoted because we did well against poorer opposition. We are doing better than I could ever have dreamt, SO FAR. The season is long and lots could happen.

Are we a prem club, yes, are we a prem team, no.

We have no devine right to state ''we deserve to be premier league'' no more than any other club.

IF we were to get promoted then we will be a small fish in a big pond just like last time.[/quote]So we are a premier league league club, but have no devine right to be. [^o)]

[chicken 0]

I agree with you in every respect Ricardo appart from one thing.

Our financial standing.

What we have lacked over the last five or so seasons since our flirting with the premier league, is a manager that can make the most of their budget and the intelligence from higher up to know when and how to back their man.

Worthington was given sod all money in his last couple of seasons, Peter Grant was then given a fortune and destroyed the team and in my mind ultimately started the slippery slide. Roeder then wanted to build promotion on loan Premiership stars, again supported by Doomcaster and Mumbles.

What we have now is what I feel is a rather clean cut no bars hold manager backed by someone who is of a similar ilk but does his punching in finance.

In terms for matching other clubs finances, we probably can''t and to some extent.

I mean the three teams there - Cardiff, QPR and Leeds all have a fair bit of money and QPR and Cardiff have already invested a fair bit in their teams (Bothroyd, Bellamy, Chopra etc).

You could almost argue that Derby are another example of a team with a bit more cash to splash.

However you are right. In terms of stature, we are not punching above our weight. Our support is envied in this division and there are a few in the prem that wouldnt mind it as well.

[......and Smith must score. 1,341]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="......and Smith must score."][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Canary_on_the Trent"]You''re missing the point ricardo, of course we should be a Premier League side but all things considered over recent years we are well ahead of where we can expect to be at this present moment of time.[/quote]I don''t think so. Surely the point is that we are nearer to where we should be at long last.[/quote]Can''t agree with your assessment I''m afraid Ricardo.Someone on here mentioned the mess we were in less than 18 months ago and we have overachieved since. I''ll bet no-one at Carrow Road on 8th August 2009 would have seriously predicted that we would be 5th in the Championship come Christmas 2010. In that respect, as a newly promoted club I think we most definitely are punching above our weight at the moment.This doesn''t of course mean that it won''t continue and if we were to do the same this term as Blackpool did last - if that wasn''t punching above their weight I don''t know what is - then I''ll be quite happy to be surprised and delighted come May 2011. [/quote]Conversely I''ll bet few at Carrow Road on Christmas 2007 would have seriously predicted that we would be relegated from the Championship 18 months later in May 2009. In that respect would you say that we were punching below our weight?It seems to me that this argument is between those who have a fifteen year perspective of this clubs position and those who have a 50 year perspective. I would not be surprised if those with a 15 year perspective put this clubs true position in the lower half of the Championship and by that token we would be punching above our weight. Those of us with a much longer perspective see it as lower Prem, upper Championship and thus have a different view of our punching weight..[/quote]Regarding the 18 month period from Christmas 2007 to relegation I would definitely say we were punching below our weight. But let''s not forget that we had been on the slippery slope for several years prior to that, narrowly avoiding relegation on more than one occasion. Whilst on papar unthinkable I think many more people could have imagined a relegation scenario at that time than they could have imagined being at the dizzy heights we now occupy in the period since the 7-1 debacle.I think Paul Lambert is right in his Press assessment. What he thinks in private may well be different but he''s savvy enough to know that public bragging has a horrible habit of turning round and biting you on the bum......

[priceyrice 123]

[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]

Jesus, isn''t it obvious that this is Lambert''s pyschology.

 

We had another manager who kept saying we need "x" points to be safe from relegation when we were at the top / near the top of the league.

 

"Punching above our weight" = Lambert taking the pressure off.

 

IF we were to get promotion, and it is a massive IF.  I honestly belive it would be the making of great things to come and that is even if we came straight back down.  We could clear our debts in one fell swoop and we would have the parachute payments behind us on top of no debt / interest payments to sustain an even stronger push for promotion the following season.  Another season or two in the Premiership and we would be expanding the stadium.  With McNally et al we would not make the same mistakes we made the last time we went up. 

[/quote]It would be great if we got promoted first time round, but i would be a little worried that if we did come straight back down we could struggle- we could lose lambert to another team, players who helped us get out of the championship may not be there any longer etc. I''m not saying this will happen and i think it prob would be great for us to go up even if we did come straight back down- enables us to clear our debts and hopefully build for a good future, but if we did lose someone as important as lambert after that it could lead to us struggling around the championship again for a fair length of time as we struggle to find another manager who brings out the best in his playersBack on topic though, lambert is just keeping everyone''s feet grounded, he knows we are doing better this seaosn than probably even he expected- we are where we are not just because we are playing, but because a lot of other teams are performing badly/worse than expected- in this sense we are punching above our weight and those teams such as middlesborough are punching below thier weight. Ricardo and Lincoln (don''t mean mention just you too, but yours are the posts i can remember right now) your just using different ways of judging what our current level can be- its not something you can really argue about as your both right, if it was judged on history then yeah we are probably just where we should be or a little below, but if done in recent form then we are defiently punching above our weight. You cant say either is right or wrong, thier just different ways of assessing the situation

[Loopzilla 1]

Ricardo, I see your point when looking at it from a long-term perspective, but as you have based this topic on the interview with Lambert then surely you have to concede that PL is talking about our short-term performance in the first half of this season, in which case it is fair to say we are exceeding expectations (or punching above our weight)?

I agree with others comments comments that PL is simply trying to deflect the pressure of media attention and expectations away from the players, and to calm fans expectations.

Privately, I''d bet he will be wanting to win the bloody league let alone winning promotion - he has a winners mentality, and winners don''t settle for second best!

[ricardo 7,381]

[quote user="Loopzilla"]Ricardo, I see your point when looking at it from a long-term perspective, but as you have based this topic on the interview with Lambert then surely you have to concede that PL is talking about our short-term performance in the first half of this season, in which case it is fair to say we are exceeding expectations (or punching above our weight)?

I agree with others comments comments that PL is simply trying to deflect the pressure of media attention and expectations away from the players, and to calm fans expectations.

Privately, I''d bet he will be wanting to win the bloody league let alone winning promotion - he has a winners mentality, and winners don''t settle for second best![/quote]The whole point of my post was to add a little perspective to what PL had said in his interview with David Cuffley and as one of the oldest posters on this board I think I am well qualified for this task. I watched this club rise from the 3rd division to spend 20+  seasons in the top league and become well respected for its style of football. It was only rank bad management and decision making that threw this all away at a time when big money was starting to come into the game. The 15 years of misery since 1995 (puntuated only by 2004) do not represent the true worth of this club. Posters such as Smudger and Cluck have been banging on about this point for ages. Although I don''t always agree with their analysis of what went wrong and how to put it right I do agree that this club with its tradition and fanbase should be punching at a far greater weight than in these misery years.PL is right that we have exceeded the expectations of many of the pundits and fans (including myself). What I am trying to say is that while we should be happy with the direction of travel we should accept that we are still some distance from our destination. By all means celebrate our recent success but remember how far we have fallen and save the back slapping for the time we reach our eventual goal.

[ZLF 274]

[quote user="ricardo"]

It was only rank bad management and decision making that threw this all away at a time when big money was starting to come into the game.[/quote]

Sadly we got relegated in exactly the wrong season, just as the real money started pouring into football (or more accurately into players pockets) our history of financial mismanagement was already embedded leading to the fateful relegation, without the financial base to get us re-promoted when we needed it most. The 92-93 season should have been a foundation - instead it was a zenith that we failed to capitalise on and so it became a springboard for a long descent. Of course that is hindsight.

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

---

You cannot ignore economics and finance in assessing where clubs stand. In my first season (1958-59) the Lancashire mill town clubs were power house teams. Bolton, Burnley, Blackpool (not strictly a mill town but...), Preston and Blackburn finished in the top 12 in the top flight.Thirty years later (a year taken at random) when we finished fourth, not one of those teams was in the top flight. Why? Economic factors. That industry all but disappeared. It happened with other industries too.  Into the footballing vacuum moved what one might call the middle-class clubs, such as ourselves, Ipswich and Southampton.

 

Our rise has to be seen in that context, and our recent history in the context of the advent of megabucks and mega-rich owners. We missed out on that. In fact, what was surprising about ending up in the third tier was not that it happened, but that it took so long. We joined some very distinguished names (clubs much bigger than ourselves) in being down that far.

[Loopzilla 1]

As I said, I see your point, and I''m no spring chicken myself. I grew up watching the team in the 70''s, a fantastic era in our club''s history.

When you referred to the interview as twaddle though, I just think it is fair to point out that the interview was looking at the current situation rather than a historical perspective on it, and in that regard, I totally understand where they are coming from.

Having said that, I totally understand where you are coming from also, or at least I think I do! :)

Anyway, here''s wishing you a merry Christmas old boy, and a few more points in the bag so we can continue to "punch above our weight"! ;)

Cheers.

[banburygreen 0]

My only comment (for what it is worth) ... is that after the disaster of Roeder / Grant / Gunn that as a club we re-invented ourselves and pull together  both on and off the park  ... we are still currently riding that crest of success and maintaining a consitency of performance that has the team and supporters united (well mainly anyway!!) ... we all know football goes in cycles and that there will always be a period poor performance somewhere (we are Norwich after all) but we all love our club and believe (want) our team to compete at the highest levels and I think PL is just being realistic and taking pressure off at the same time.

The big challenge will be when we do have a dip and how we (team / fans) get over this.

Every Norwich fan has an opinion and is also entitled to it... I have enjoyed reading the positivity and negatitivy over the years from various posters over the years and long may this continue.

Finally as a Norwich fan it could be worse we could be Liverpool fans who are still deluded anough to think they are a big club!!!! .... different clubs same opinions hey!!

OTBC

 

 

[ricardo 7,381]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

---

You cannot ignore economics and finance in assessing where clubs stand. In my first season (1958-59) the Lancashire mill town clubs were power house teams. Bolton, Burnley, Blackpool (not strictly a mill town but...), Preston and Blackburn finished in the top 12 in the top flight.Thirty years later (a year taken at random) when we finished fourth, not one of those teams was in the top flight. Why? Economic factors. That industry all but disappeared. It happened with other industries too.  Into the footballing vacuum moved what one might call the middle-class clubs, such as ourselves, Ipswich and Southampton.

 

Our rise has to be seen in that context, and our recent history in the context of the advent of megabucks and mega-rich owners. We missed out on that. In fact, what was surprising about ending up in the third tier was not that it happened, but that it took so long. We joined some very distinguished names (clubs much bigger than ourselves) in being down that far.

[/quote]A very fair and succinct appraisal Purple.The advent of the Premier League was both an opportunity and a warning to middle ranking clubs like NCFC. Unfortunately we managed to miss out on the opportunity due to bad decisions made by those in charge at the time. The big teams of the fifties died (as you rightly explain) when the economics of their exsistance changed. Their fanbase and financial power dimished as the population and the old industries that sustained it declined.The field was left open for the well supported teams from the expanding areas of the country and NCFC was one of these.My argument is based on the fact that our area is still one of the fastest growing areas in the country and with no local competition our club should in a prime position to take advantage of this situation. Our relegation from the Premiership at just the wrong time has set us back a few years but I firmly believe the best years of this club are still in the future and if we just stop thinking of ourselves as "little old Norwich" those dreams can be made reality. Big investment is obviously required but NCFC has many more positives going for it than most teams in a similar position.I am sure that the people in charge at CR feel the same way and I have every faith that PL is the man who will deliver on this promise and that NCFC will be restored to its rightfull punching weight before too long.

[WeAreYellows49 0]

[quote user="Barnett is king"][quote user="WeAreYellows49"]We got relegated because we were s**t, we got promoted because we did well against poorer opposition. We are doing better than I could ever have dreamt, SO FAR. The season is long and lots could happen. Are we a prem club, yes, are we a prem team, no. We have no devine right to state ''we deserve to be premier league'' no more than any other club. IF we were to get promoted then we will be a small fish in a big pond just like last time.[/quote]So we are a premier league league club, but have no devine right to be. [^o)]
[/quote]

You read into that too much.  Our support home and away is (small club) Prem, our ground is Prem (although smaller than clubs such as the Gooners etc), our training facilities are Prem, our players however are not.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

Sorry, but I don''t hold with this load of twaddle in Lambert''s reported interview with David Cuffley.

City have spent one year in the last sixty in the the third tier so why is it surprising that after several years of under performance we are at last back somewhere near our true standing. All you see recently is pundits running on about how NCFC have out performed expectations and are now competing with the likes of QPR, Cardiff, Leeds etc. Do me a favour please!

The true position is that after a poor few years the club is now back punching its "proper" weight and it should be no surprise to anyon

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn''t agree more!

 

We only got relegated through bad mangerial appointments and decisions made by a failing board, not because the Championship was such a superior League that we was out of our depth in!

 

We now have a manager who does what the job description says - manages and we enjoy massive crowds for this level so theirs no reason why we can''t well in the Championship. Its not the Champions League for christ sakes!

 

Personally I''m not that surprised we''re doing so well cause I figured at the start of the season if we couold maintain last seasons good form and momentum with Lambert working his magic again we''d be more than OK!