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silver fox

Am I the only person who thinks Chris Martin is lazy?

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[quote user="silver fox"][quote user="I.S."][quote user="silver fox"][quote user="TIL 1010"]Who was it who created the opening and had the shot which was blocked before Russell Martin scored from the rebound?[/quote]  And what else did he do for the rest of the match apart from give away some silly free kicks, and miss two open goals.  If you need a example of someone who gives everything for the team then look no further than Hoolahan and he creates chances every time he has the ball.[/quote]Jesus wept - he played in a very advanced attacking *MIDFIELD* role, at the tip of the diamond, and we absolutely battered the league leaders QPR in an attacking sense (21 odd chances wasn''t it)?! Do you not think that perhaps, his play had something to do with that? Or are you suggesting that the team carried him yesterday?Clearly Lambert felt he performed very well, as he played the full 96 odd minutes, and we all know that we have a manager who is not afraid to change players and formations if he feels things are not going well. Case in point, Sheffield United in our previous home game.Yes, he should have scored yesterday, but if he had have put one of those chances away I think you would have been looking at a MOTM performance from Chrissy. He put in one hell of a shift yesterday, and I think it is a sad state of affairs when he is still branded as lazy for playing a very disciplined and productive part in a superb win, against the league leaders, that put us up to third with a game in hand on the second placed team![/quote]  If Lambert has told Chris Martin not to try and win the ball back when he loses it, and don''t close down defenders like Holt does, then fair enough he is not giving the impression of being lazy.  In my opinion had he scored yesterday he would have still been some way behind Russell Martin, Nelson, Whitbread and Hoolahan as MOTM.[/quote]Funny you should say that, as I think it''s quite possible that Lambert and Culverhouse told Martin not to needlessly chase down defenders and the goalkeeper in order to avoid us becoming over-run in midfield. Martin was definitely holding a specific position, and I would presume that when we play with such an attacking line-up against a team like QPR, who can be dominant in midfield, it is vitally important that players don''t all run around like headless chickens, and mark the zones/players that they have been assigned. I''m no football tactician, but we kept QPR (and their star player Taarabt) very quiet yesterday, which I''m sure can only be achieved by everyone playing their assigned roles well.  At the end of the day, we kept a clean sheet and generated numerous chances against the top team in the division. I am fairly certain everyone did their jobs properly yesterday, so I think this criticism of Martin (when no-one is privy to the actual game plan the players were given) is pretty ludicrous.I am sure that if Lambert thinks Martin has underperformed, he may well be rested against Middlesbrough.

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Right...RANT starting.

The O.P is clearly either blind or deluded!  People don''t actually realise Chris Martin''s workrate - yesterday I saw him tackle back on at least 5 or 6 occasions and help out defensively as well as producing an excpetional 1st half performance!

As it was, he was superb in the first half, he linked up really well with Hoolahan and Holt and got on the end of many of Wilbraham''s flicks.  He basically made the goal by ghosting through the QPR defence too.  Okay, so in the second half his finishing let him down, but usually his finishing is extremely sharp!

Can everyone get of Chris'' back?  He is an academy product through OUR youth system who has played over 100 games for us now and scored almost 40 goals - an excellent record for someone of his age.  For me, he is our best youth poduct (outfield) since Bellamy.

For the original poster - why don''t you go to a game and actually watch how much input he has - at the end of the game yesterday he could barely walk as he had put so much in!

RANT OVER.

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[quote user="Pabs"]

Right...RANT starting.

The O.P is clearly either blind or deluded!  People don''t actually realise Chris Martin''s workrate - yesterday I saw him tackle back on at least 5 or 6 occasions and help out defensively as well as producing an excpetional 1st half performance!

As it was, he was superb in the first half, he linked up really well with Hoolahan and Holt and got on the end of many of Wilbraham''s flicks.  He basically made the goal by ghosting through the QPR defence too.  Okay, so in the second half his finishing let him down, but usually his finishing is extremely sharp!

Can everyone get of Chris'' back?  He is an academy product through OUR youth system who has played over 100 games for us now and scored almost 40 goals - an excellent record for someone of his age.  For me, he is our best youth poduct (outfield) since Bellamy.

For the original poster - why don''t you go to a game and actually watch how much input he has - at the end of the game yesterday he could barely walk as he had put so much in!

RANT OVER.

[/quote]That''s the problem Pabs, where players have come through our Academy fans fall into 3 categories:

1) Must be crap as they came from our academy not from the academies of Man Utd, Arsenal etc.

2) They can do no  wrong as they came from our academy.

3) Level headed people who can see players for what they are.

I like to think I fall into the third category and I agree with you about Martin.

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[quote user="I.S."][quote user="silver fox"][quote user="I.S."][quote user="silver fox"][quote user="TIL 1010"]Who was it who created the opening and had the shot which was blocked before Russell Martin scored from the rebound?[/quote]  And what else did he do for the rest of the match apart from give away some silly free kicks, and miss two open goals.  If you need a example of someone who gives everything for the team then look no further than Hoolahan and he creates chances every time he has the ball.[/quote]Jesus wept - he played in a very advanced attacking *MIDFIELD* role, at the tip of the diamond, and we absolutely battered the league leaders QPR in an attacking sense (21 odd chances wasn''t it)?! Do you not think that perhaps, his play had something to do with that? Or are you suggesting that the team carried him yesterday?Clearly Lambert felt he performed very well, as he played the full 96 odd minutes, and we all know that we have a manager who is not afraid to change players and formations if he feels things are not going well. Case in point, Sheffield United in our previous home game.Yes, he should have scored yesterday, but if he had have put one of those chances away I think you would have been looking at a MOTM performance from Chrissy. He put in one hell of a shift yesterday, and I think it is a sad state of affairs when he is still branded as lazy for playing a very disciplined and productive part in a superb win, against the league leaders, that put us up to third with a game in hand on the second placed team![/quote]  If Lambert has told Chris Martin not to try and win the ball back when he loses it, and don''t close down defenders like Holt does, then fair enough he is not giving the impression of being lazy.  In my opinion had he scored yesterday he would have still been some way behind Russell Martin, Nelson, Whitbread and Hoolahan as MOTM.[/quote]Funny you should say that, as I think it''s quite possible that Lambert and Culverhouse told Martin not to needlessly chase down defenders and the goalkeeper in order to avoid us becoming over-run in midfield. Martin was definitely holding a specific position, and I would presume that when we play with such an attacking line-up against a team like QPR, who can be dominant in midfield, it is vitally important that players don''t all run around like headless chickens, and mark the zones/players that they have been assigned. I''m no football tactician, but we kept QPR (and their star player Taarabt) very quiet yesterday, which I''m sure can only be achieved by everyone playing their assigned roles well.  At the end of the day, we kept a clean sheet and generated numerous chances against the top team in the division. I am fairly certain everyone did their jobs properly yesterday, so I think this criticism of Martin (when no-one is privy to the actual game plan the players were given) is pretty ludicrous.[/quote]This is an excellent point. Also, with two strikers ahead of Chrissy (who is ostensibly a striker himself), one would imagine Lambert had identified the need for Hoolahan to come deeper, track back and chase around and make a nuisance of himself. Smith and Crofts alone could easily have been outgunned in the engine room without Wes''s excellent defensive efforts (and, of course, his quick feet and ability to make a yard of space to play in - something Taarabt was largely denied).

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[quote user="silver fox"][quote user="Nexus_Canary"][quote user="silver fox"] Congratulations you are definitely more stupid than your replies show.  Did you understand the comment about Hoolahan creating all the time, as opposed to once or twice a game in Martin''s case.  That is the same Hoolahan who scored a hat trick on Tuesday against Sheff Utd. I will try and keep this simple for you Nexus.  Goalkeepers are paid to save goals and strikers are paid to score them.  Kenny did his job yesterday, cannot say the same about Martin, how stupid is that?[/quote]

Silverfox.
A fantastic deduction that only Sherlock Holmes could come up with
*round of aplause*

Now........... When will you realise that

CHRIS MARTIN WAS PLAYING IN MIDFIELD
[/quote]  According to the club Chris Martin is described as a striker and not a midfielder.  I think if you ask Chris Martin himself he will say he is a striker. Whatever position he played in yesterday''s game doesn''t detract from the fact that he is paid by the club to score goals. It was not a deduction by the way Nexus, it was a simple fact. [/quote]

Chris Martin is paid to play in whatever position the manager tells him to play in that will have the best chance of us winning the game. Chris Sutton, Dion Dublin, Grant Holt and Declan Rudd were all centre halfs good job their managers did not tell them to just play there. Likewise Darrel Russell was a centre forward and Ashley Cole a left winger and Henri Lansbury a goalkeeper. You have avoided my main question - if he was so bad why since his return to the starting 11 have our results gone DDDWWLWWW with the first 2 draws being Millwall and Reading. Your description of what you feel Chris Martin should do is all what was wrong with english football - no skill, no trust in your team mates and 6ft 4 battering rams that kick anything that moves. 

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silver fox I thought you were spot on with your original post as I commented in different posts!! However I am told I know sweet fa about football because I criticised Martin. The thing that annoys me most besides all the slagging you get if you dont toe the line with your opinion, is that every week we hear all this crap about how good Martin is with finishing etc but he fails to score regularly no matter how many chances he has. the game is all about opinions but people on this board think you should have theirs and you are not allowed to criticise anybody. i would just ask this of people, if Martin is as good as people think then answer these questions:how many times has he won man of the match this seasonhow many goals does he score out of the chances he hasas i say you can only have an opinion if it is the right one!!Finally I would like to say the biggest reason I get on Martins case is because he appears to show a different attitude when at home to that what he displays away, and yes I do go to games!!!

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We must be the only club in the country doing really well and have fans stupid enough to constantly be slagging off players who are part of a successful team. Any fans from other clubs who happend to look on this forum would laugh their asses off at us, there''s posts that slag, Ward, Whitbread, Nelson, C.Martin, Ruddy, R.Martin, Jackson, Lappin, Wilbraham even before he''d player a game, i''m sure if they looked back they''d find posts that say Holt tracks back to much or drifts wide chasing the ball or that Hoolahan is a luxury. Chris Martin has made a significant contribution to what has so far been an amazing effort by all the players, he may have some faults, but thats why he''s playing for us and not a premiership side.

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[quote user="Nexus_Canary"][quote user="silver fox"]
According to the club Chris Martin is described as a striker and not a midfielder.  I think if you ask Chris Martin himself he will say he is a striker. Whatever position he played in yesterday''s game doesn''t detract from the fact that he is paid by the club to score goals. It was not a deduction by the way Nexus, it was a simple fact. [/quote]

Why is there this myth that the modern striker is simply a one role player ?

Using your template we should be telling Holt to stop dropping back as he''s out of position as a Striker.
By the same method your saying that a Striker who over 20 games scores 2 goals and gets 25 assists is also NOT doing his job.

Chris Martin ( although YES a striker ) played in a Attacking MIDFIELD role yesterday.
He practically single handedly created the chance that led to the goal as well as having some really good play. He actually played with his back to the goal for the majority of the game, something that is a prized skill in supporting strikers and attacking mids as he is creating rather than finishing.
Chris arguably had his best game in weeks yesterday.

You keep on grasping at straws and making arguements with more holes than a lump of swiss cheese !
80% of the posters are also dis-agreeing with your claims so why not just move on and argue over who should be the 2 centre backs at the moment.
This arguement has far more possibility for debate and probably would not get you flamed so hard !
[/quote]  After the performance against QPR and providing Whitbread can play two games in 3 days, I would stick with the same pairing.

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[quote user="silver fox"]

Every game I watch lately Chris Martin seems to put very little effort in.  I watch Grant Holt lose the ball, but he goes straight back in again to try and retrieve the situation.  Holt is always closing defenders down and does not give them a minutes peace.  On the other hand Martin strolls around and very rarely closes any defender down.  Whenever he loses the ball he just stands still and shrugs his shoulder, but never attempts to win it back, which I find very frustrating.  When he does try to get stuck in he invariably gives away a free kick in a dangerous position.

He can get away with this when he is putting the ball in the net, because there is no doubt he is a good finisher, but yesterday he had two clear cut chances to finish the game off, but failed both times.

Maybe Lambert should give him a rest and play Jackson alongside Holt and Wilbraham.

[/quote]

 And yet Holt was slated for this a few weeks ago as he was a forward not scoring goals. He was also hounded out of Forest as he did not score goals. English football is 10 years behind the rest of europe hence why the Holts of world football are disappearing. If you want to carry on watching this type of football you need to hope we dont get to the premiership and if we do you will find Holt will be red carded most games he plays. If you go and watch league 2 football you will see 11 Holts on the pitch and plenty of hoofing the ball 100 feet in the air. Holt Martin Hoolahan Wilbra and Jackson are all essential to our team as they all bring totally different things and that includes having to have a centre forward like Holt as otherwise we would conceed to many goals.   

With Jackson in the starting line up we acheived our worst results, this reminds me of the get rid of the diamond last year although there is a possibility that Jackson will play tomorrow but only because he is fresher and his pace against a side that have played 4 games in just over a week could be decisive. 

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haha...................

i cant believe i have just read all of that!!!

some fans on here, just have nothing better to do than pick on are own players!! we are third in the league and just beat the league leaders.

If martin''s lazy, then what the hell was siberski and some of the other utter $hite we have had in the past.

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Why do people complain that we do not close down the defenders or goalkeeper when we are winning? Hold your position and let them play at you, then you have all your men back to deal with the situation. Alternatively close down the goalie, let him kick it and leave a man out of position?!

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[quote user="Largey"]Why do people complain that we do not close down the defenders or goalkeeper when we are winning? Hold your position and let them play at you, then you have all your men back to deal with the situation. Alternatively close down the goalie, let him kick it and leave a man out of position?![/quote]It''s a tough balance. There were times in the last 20 minutes against QPR where, even against ten men, I thought we were sitting frustratingly deep and inviting pressure onto ourselves. There were a couple of occasions where it was practically a flat back eight because the midfield were so slow to push out when we cleared the ball. However, the flipside to that was that we counter-attacked very effectively once we''d invited them onto us, and made chances to kill the game that we should have taken.

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[quote user="silver fox"] I am not talking about running far enough, or how many touches a player makes, I am talking about a player chasing lost causes and trying to win the ball back when they lose it.  Given the chance I would prefer to have Tevez in the side rather than Torres, because he is the type of player I like to see on the field, because he never gives up.  I do not have access to stats but I guess that Tevez has scored more goals than Torres this season, and in comparison Holt has scored more goals than Chris Martin. [/quote]I hope certain people aren''t reading this because, by your logic, a Mr D Huckerby would not make the team under your management. He was not the "chasing back" type, even when playing left mid. Cristiano Ronaldo would also not be in your team, because he likes to sit on the floor complaining when he gets tackled. Those pesky Brazilians Ronaldo & Ronaldinho certainly didn''t work hard enough and would have to make way too, perhaps you could replace them with Leon McKenzie in your team? He used to chase the ball like a headless maniac.Whatever you, or I, or anyone says about Chris Martin my point is this: can we please debate his football skills? Not his lung capacity or appetite for ball chasing.Tevez has more goals than Torres. However, Berbatov has more goals than both - but I bet you wouldn''t like that guy in your team huh?! What a waste of space he is, with his stupid flicks, tricks and poncing about. He should be chasing lost causes and winning the ball back, rather than letting the midfield do that, and staying up front where he can do damage.

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I don''t particularly rate Martin, but Saturday was his best game all season in my opinion. Just wish he could learn off Holt a bit more!

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[quote user="lobstercatcher2"]ffs we are 3rd in the league and all some of you do is moan about our players,why don''t you just shut the fu@k up and enjoy.........this is the kind of shitty thread that stopped me posting on here[/quote]

A contradiction surely [;)] as it has actually caused you to post!

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[quote user="silver fox"][quote user="TIL 1010"]Who was it who created the opening and had the shot which was blocked before Russell Martin scored from the rebound?[/quote]  And what else did he do for the rest of the match apart from give away some silly free kicks, and miss two open goals.  If you need a example of someone who gives everything for the team then look no further than Hoolahan and he creates chances every time he has the ball.[/quote]

To make this clear he did not miss 2 open goals he hit the target on both occasions and forced the keeper into saves, the second of which was a very good save. The same could be leveled at Wilbrahams and Hooly. On both occasions he was in the right place and the first miss didn''t stop him from getting in positions. 

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[quote user="Pabs"]

Right...RANT starting.

The O.P is clearly either blind or deluded!  People don''t actually realise Chris Martin''s workrate - yesterday I saw him tackle back on at least 5 or 6 occasions and help out defensively as well as producing an excpetional 1st half performance!

As it was, he was superb in the first half, he linked up really well with Hoolahan and Holt and got on the end of many of Wilbraham''s flicks.  He basically made the goal by ghosting through the QPR defence too.  Okay, so in the second half his finishing let him down, but usually his finishing is extremely sharp!

Can everyone get of Chris'' back?  He is an academy product through OUR youth system who has played over 100 games for us now and scored almost 40 goals - an excellent record for someone of his age.  For me, he is our best youth poduct (outfield) since Bellamy.

For the original poster - why don''t you go to a game and actually watch how much input he has - at the end of the game yesterday he could barely walk as he had put so much in!

RANT OVER.

[/quote] I do go to every home game and several away matches.  Watch Martin through the match and you will see he always looks as though he can barely walk.

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[quote user="The Great Drinkell"]

[quote user="silver fox"][quote user="TIL 1010"]Who was it who created the opening and had the shot which was blocked before Russell Martin scored from the rebound?[/quote]  And what else did he do for the rest of the match apart from give away some silly free kicks, and miss two open goals.  If you need a example of someone who gives everything for the team then look no further than Hoolahan and he creates chances every time he has the ball.[/quote]

To make this clear he did not miss 2 open goals he hit the target on both occasions and forced the keeper into saves, the second of which was a very good save. The same could be leveled at Wilbrahams and Hooly. On both occasions he was in the right place and the first miss didn''t stop him from getting in positions. 

[/quote]He is paid to get in those positions irrespective of whether he puts the ball in the net or not.  You are contradicting yourself by referring to the first miss.  Make your mind up he either missed or hit the target.  Whatever way you look at it he did not score a goal.

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Hello NialI wont ta talk abut tha Chrissy MartinWell Nial, E''s Lazy in-eHe dunt track back or score enuff ghoulsWhats that Nial ?No , I wus not at the gameI was watching it on tha radio Nial

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[quote user="baldyboy"]silver fox I thought you were spot on with your original post as I commented in different posts!! However I am told I know sweet fa about football because I criticised Martin. The thing that annoys me most besides all the slagging you get if you dont toe the line with your opinion, is that every week we hear all this crap about how good Martin is with finishing etc but he fails to score regularly no matter how many chances he has. the game is all about opinions but people on this board think you should have theirs and you are not allowed to criticise anybody. i would just ask this of people, if Martin is as good as people think then answer these questions:
how many times has he won man of the match this season
how many goals does he score out of the chances he has

as i say you can only have an opinion if it is the right one!!

Finally I would like to say the biggest reason I get on Martins case is because he appears to show a different attitude when at home to that what he displays away, and yes I do go to games!!!




[/quote]Thanks baldyboy.  It is refreshing to see other posters who share my views on Chris Martin.  Only time will tell if he makes it into the Premiership either with us or a bigger club.  I did see a report the other day saying he could get called up into the Scotland squad, but I haven''t seen it confirmed yet.

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Yup evidently you are both thick as two planks :)Silverfox, actually watch a game of football and learn how its played. Learn about things like offside and attacking movements.Learn what link up play meansLearn what holding a position meansLearn what knocking the ball to feet in a pack and pulling it into space isThen watch Chris Martin properly without your lazy rimmed glasses

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[quote user="Largey"]Why do people complain that we do not close down the defenders or goalkeeper when we are winning? Hold your position and let them play at you, then you have all your men back to deal with the situation. Alternatively close down the goalie, let him kick it and leave a man out of position?![/quote] We did that against Reading and look what happened.  Martin was up front for most of the second half on his own and the Reading players had all the time in the world to pick their passes.

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[quote user="silver fox"][quote user="The Great Drinkell"]

[quote user="silver fox"][quote user="TIL 1010"]Who was it who created the opening and had the shot which was blocked before Russell Martin scored from the rebound?[/quote]  And what else did he do for the rest of the match apart from give away some silly free kicks, and miss two open goals.  If you need a example of someone who gives everything for the team then look no further than Hoolahan and he creates chances every time he has the ball.[/quote]

To make this clear he did not miss 2 open goals he hit the target on both occasions and forced the keeper into saves, the second of which was a very good save. The same could be leveled at Wilbrahams and Hooly. On both occasions he was in the right place and the first miss didn''t stop him from getting in positions. 

[/quote]He is paid to get in those positions irrespective of whether he puts the ball in the net or not.  You are contradicting yourself by referring to the first miss.  Make your mind up he either missed or hit the target.  Whatever way you look at it he did not score a goal.[/quote]

First of all Silver Fox he played in midfield how many more times. Our centre forward whom I have great respect for had 2 open goals in the first half and did not manage to hit the target, surely by your reckoning he is paid to score goals not defend. And why wont you answer my question, since Martins recall to the starting 11 we have DDDWWLWWW the 1st 2 draws against Reading and Millwall. Hardly the time to be slating him you missed the boat when he was left out. Would you rather see all our players defending and scoring very few goals ? in which case you should watch Blackburn or Bolton before the Owen Coyle days. When a team goes deep it just encourages the other team to attack ala QPR in the last 15 minutes. Just a few weeks ago the world was slating Holt for dropping back and not scoring goals without a player like Martin to link up the ball would be stuck in our half - remember when we were relegated ?  

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Lazy or not (I certainly don''t subscribe to this myself and think this thread is a bit of a joke) I have just watched the highlights on Canaries Player and Martin was involved in everything we did going forwards. He''s one of the best young prospects we''ve had in years, can''t believe people wanna moan at him.Once he is sold to a bigger club, you''ll learn.

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The anti-Chris Martin club aren''t saying that he should ONLY run around

atfer the ball, they''re just saying he should do more of it. It''s not

that he has a divine duty to put in the effort for the team, it''s that

he chooses not to when you would think every player on the team would be

hitting that 110%. And it''s not because of the contrast presented by

Holt, or instructions not to break rank by the management, it''s because

if Martin doesn''t have to run, Martin probably won''t run.

   You can talk about as many abstract attributes like link-up play or

making intelligent runs as you like, but when our backs are against the

wall as they have been in the last two home games, I don''t feel he puts

enough in and that doesn''t help.

I also think this argument is getting to be bigger than it is. The

''Christ Martin'' club are reacting badly to criticism of their baby,

which as baldyboy pointed out, you aren''t allowed to do. Suddenly Martin

has transformed into this integral, irreplaceable weapon of footballing

creation in our arsenal, which he is not. He''s a decent player, no

doubt, and he deserves his place in a winning team at the moment (low

effort is not a hanging offence) because he''s been a part of that team,

but to call him integral is ludicrous; I''d say only Holt is that vital

to our set-up.

As for the best finisher argument, if we''re looking at it generally it''s

got to be Holt. If it''s chances/converted, to be honest it''s probably

Nelson. Think about it.

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[quote user="silver fox"]

Every game I watch lately Chris Martin seems to put very little effort in.  I watch Grant Holt lose the ball, but he goes straight back in again to try and retrieve the situation.  Holt is always closing defenders down and does not give them a minutes peace.  On the other hand Martin strolls around and very rarely closes any defender down.  Whenever he loses the ball he just stands still and shrugs his shoulder, but never attempts to win it back, which I find very frustrating.  When he does try to get stuck in he invariably gives away a free kick in a dangerous position.

He can get away with this when he is putting the ball in the net, because there is no doubt he is a good finisher, but yesterday he had two clear cut chances to finish the game off, but failed both times.

Maybe Lambert should give him a rest and play Jackson alongside Holt and Wilbraham.

[/quote]

No you are not the only one who thinks CM is lazy...there are other people who seem to have limited knowledge of football that watch city too.

I''d like to think I''m not in your gang as I think he''s the best young player we have at the club and I don''t get confused with body language and the odd tantrum/"lad" attitude as opposed to a lack of effort.

He''s a class act in my book and will only get better.

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i can''t believe i''m reading such a thread on one of our players.Would expect it if we were down near the bottom and struggling to score goals,but as we are 3rd in the table having scored a hatfull of goals this season it''s unbelievable that someone can criticize one of our players for being lazy.

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[quote user="Jester"]The anti-Chris Martin club aren''t saying that he should ONLY run around atfer the ball, they''re just saying he should do more of it. It''s not that he has a divine duty to put in the effort for the team, it''s that he chooses not to when you would think every player on the team would be hitting that 110%. And it''s not because of the contrast presented by Holt, or instructions not to break rank by the management, it''s because if Martin doesn''t have to run, Martin probably won''t run.
   You can talk about as many abstract attributes like link-up play or making intelligent runs as you like, but when our backs are against the wall as they have been in the last two home games, I don''t feel he puts enough in and that doesn''t help.

I also think this argument is getting to be bigger than it is. The ''Christ Martin'' club are reacting badly to criticism of their baby, which as baldyboy pointed out, you aren''t allowed to do. Suddenly Martin has transformed into this integral, irreplaceable weapon of footballing creation in our arsenal, which he is not. He''s a decent player, no doubt, and he deserves his place in a winning team at the moment (low effort is not a hanging offence) because he''s been a part of that team, but to call him integral is ludicrous; I''d say only Holt is that vital to our set-up.

As for the best finisher argument, if we''re looking at it generally it''s got to be Holt. If it''s chances/converted, to be honest it''s probably Nelson. Think about it.[/quote]  Once again it is pleasing to see a poster who actually understands what the first post was all about. 

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[quote user="spencer 1970"][quote user="silver fox"]

Every game I watch lately Chris Martin seems to put very little effort in.  I watch Grant Holt lose the ball, but he goes straight back in again to try and retrieve the situation.  Holt is always closing defenders down and does not give them a minutes peace.  On the other hand Martin strolls around and very rarely closes any defender down.  Whenever he loses the ball he just stands still and shrugs his shoulder, but never attempts to win it back, which I find very frustrating.  When he does try to get stuck in he invariably gives away a free kick in a dangerous position.

He can get away with this when he is putting the ball in the net, because there is no doubt he is a good finisher, but yesterday he had two clear cut chances to finish the game off, but failed both times.

Maybe Lambert should give him a rest and play Jackson alongside Holt and Wilbraham.

[/quote] No you are not the only one who thinks CM is lazy...there are other people who seem to have limited knowledge of football that watch city too. I''d like to think I''m not in your gang as I think he''s the best young player we have at the club and I don''t get confused with body language and the odd tantrum/"lad" attitude as opposed to a lack of effort. He''s a class act in my book and will only get better.[/quote]  You are entitled to your opinion like the rest of us.  I have been watching Norwich since 1959 and have seen a lot of strikers in that time and quite frankly I stick to my original post that I think he is lazy. I cannot see any Premiership side coming in for Martin in the transfer window, but good luck to him if one does.

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Which silly free-kicks did Martin give away? (not saying he didn''t give any away, but i don''t remember any more than one....)

And the fact he was giving away free-kicks, presumably you mean in slightly dangerous positions (otherwise why aren''t you moaning at Holt for giving away free-kicks) means he was tracking back, and he is a striker, not an AM.

If he is so lazy, and adds nothing to the team why is he playing? HE quite obviously is a key player in the way we play, otherwise Jackson would be playing. Thats why Martin stayed in the team with Wilbrham and Holt upfront i presume, because Lambert wants him in the team.

And what open goals did Martin miss? I don''t remember any? You on about the two good saves that Kenny made?

Hoolahan also chipped a ball straight to Kenny....I also don''t remember Holt forcing a save all game? But then again Holt is immune to criticism,,..

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