'Safe standing area'

[Robert N. LiM 4,246]

''Canary'', please direct me to this research which says that seating is safer.

Then please tell me why rugby league fans are allowed to stand, why 90,000 people can stand in six inches of mud at Glastonbury but why 4000 people can''t stand in the Lower Barclay.

I did support a club where I could stand to watch games - it was called Norwich City. There''s absolutely no reason why it can''t be again except for a government prejudice against football fans.

I''ve never understood why people are against it. No one''s arguing that football grounds should be made all-standing.

Interesting comments about capacity - I accept that people wouldn''t be packed in as before, and agree that that''s a good thing. But I would imagine that capacity would still be slightly greater, wouldn''t it? And I can''t be the only one who would be prepared to contribute towards the costs of refiguring the terrace. I stood at Carrow road for the first seven years of my City-supporting life, and have sat for the last 18. Sitting still doesn''t feel right.

[Canary 1]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]''Canary'', please direct me to this research which says that seating is safer. Then please tell me why rugby league fans are allowed to stand, why 90,000 people can stand in six inches of mud at Glastonbury but why 4000 people can''t stand in the Lower Barclay. I did support a club where I could stand to watch games - it was called Norwich City. There''s absolutely no reason why it can''t be again except for a government prejudice against football fans. I''ve never understood why people are against it. No one''s arguing that football grounds should be made all-standing. Interesting comments about capacity - I accept that people wouldn''t be packed in as before, and agree that that''s a good thing. But I would imagine that capacity would still be slightly greater, wouldn''t it? And I can''t be the only one who would be prepared to contribute towards the costs of refiguring the terrace. I stood at Carrow road for the first seven years of my City-supporting life, and have sat for the last 18. Sitting still doesn''t feel right.[/quote]

Robert N.LiM I think if you look at  the Lord Justice Taylor''s Final Report published in January 1990 if you read this report in its entirty it draws a number of conclusion which relates to all seater Stadia being safer for all.

I think you will find that Gastonbury is a larger area than a Football stadium!!!

  

[City penguin 0]

[quote user="Canary"]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]''Canary'', please direct me to this research which says that seating is safer. Then please tell me why rugby league fans are allowed to stand, why 90,000 people can stand in six inches of mud at Glastonbury but why 4000 people can''t stand in the Lower Barclay. I did support a club where I could stand to watch games - it was called Norwich City. There''s absolutely no reason why it can''t be again except for a government prejudice against football fans. I''ve never understood why people are against it. No one''s arguing that football grounds should be made all-standing. Interesting comments about capacity - I accept that people wouldn''t be packed in as before, and agree that that''s a good thing. But I would imagine that capacity would still be slightly greater, wouldn''t it? And I can''t be the only one who would be prepared to contribute towards the costs of refiguring the terrace. I stood at Carrow road for the first seven years of my City-supporting life, and have sat for the last 18. Sitting still doesn''t feel right.[/quote]

Robert N.LiM I think if you look at  the Lord Justice Taylor''s Final Report published in January 1990 if you read this report in its entirty it draws a number of conclusion which relates to all seater Stadia being safer for all.

I think you will find that Gastonbury is a larger area than a Football stadium!!!

  

[/quote]

if you have ever been to a big festival you will know that although the areas are much greater towards the front for the headline acts, namely libertines at reading last year, it is hell. If you watch the replays you will think wow look at all those crowd surfers, in fact most of whom have been knocked unconcuis or crushed to such an extent they fear for their safety. I would say i surfed up at least 5 or 6 people some of them full grown men because they couldnt take the crush anymore. The libertines had to come off halfway through their set to calm the crowd down as bodies were being passed towards the front. No way on eath will safe standing areas ever get that dangerous.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Canary- again, do you believe that German stadia with large safe standing areas are dangerous? You stated in an earlier post that all-seater stadia are "better", but surely that is just a personal opinion- and a slightly dubious one given the issues many clubs have with fans continuing to stand.

What is your problem with allowing people the opportunity to watch football safely in the manner of their choosing?

[Canary 1]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]Canary- again, do you believe that German stadia with large safe standing areas are dangerous? You stated in an earlier post that all-seater stadia are "better", but surely that is just a personal opinion- and a slightly dubious one given the issues many clubs have with fans continuing to stand. What is your problem with allowing people the opportunity to watch football safely in the manner of their choosing?[/quote]

Mr Carrow, all the post on this site are people''s opinions, your posts are your opinion.

People can watch football how they like I am not stopping people watching safely in a manner of their choosing.

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,246]

Canary - thanks. I actually had in mind research which compares the new form of safe standing used in German grounds to all seater stadiums.

But I''ve just read the section of the Taylor report on all-seater stadiums (isn''t the Internet great?). It strikes me that most of the points Taylor made are out of date. He is essentially comparing all-seater stadiums with the terracing that preceded them (which of course he was right to do at the time). But no one is recommending a return to massive terraces like the Kop. The points he makes about overcrowding have been addressed by the safe standing areas in German grounds, where each spectator''s ticket relates to a particular piece of concrete and only gains you access to a particular block of the terrace.

If you read his report (section 2, entitled A better future for football), it is clear that his motives are as much about crowd control as supporter safety. I am not criticising this: in the culture of the late 80s, in the midst of appalling hooliganism, he was right to take this into account, and you can see why he recommended all seater stadia. But the world has moved on: policing of these events is far better and more sophisticated, and the football supporters have come to accept that they need a ticket to get into the ground, rather than paying on the day. Overcrowding due to terracing is impossible to imagine in these circumstances.

It is difficult to read the report and conclude that any of his findings still apply (and that is largely to his credit).  Particularly amusing is his prediction that conversion to all-seater stadia will not result in hugely increased admission prices.

In the climate of 1989, it is easy to see how Lord Taylor drew the conclusions he did. But it is now 2010. What is being proposed is nothing like the status quo pro-Hillsborough. It works in Germany and it would work here.

I''m not sure what you''re saying about Glastonbury. Surely you''re making my point for me? If 90,000 people are allowed to stand in often very dangerous conditions, why are they not in carefully controlled conditions in football grounds? The answer has nothing to do with health and safety.

 

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="Canary"]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]Canary- again, do you believe that German stadia with large safe standing areas are dangerous? You stated in an earlier post that all-seater stadia are "better", but surely that is just a personal opinion- and a slightly dubious one given the issues many clubs have with fans continuing to stand. What is your problem with allowing people the opportunity to watch football safely in the manner of their choosing?[/quote]

Mr Carrow, all the post on this site are people''s opinions, your posts are your opinion.

People can watch football how they like I am not stopping people watching safely in a manner of their choosing.

 

[/quote]

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Canary, on this thread you appear to be suggesting that you disagree with the idea of English clubs being allowed to create safe standing areas within their grounds. I can understand people not wanting to stand at football, but i cannot understand why people would be against other people being given the option to do so safely- unless they want to argue that German stadia are inherently unsafe. It is absurd.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

It was really really refreshing to read what Don Foster MP is proposing!

 

The Hillsborough disaster of April 1989 wasn''t caused by people standing - It was caused by the police and stadium controllers opening the exit to the Leppings Lane lower tier, enabling anyone of the street with or without a ticket into the ground. Fans then made their way to the already full centre pen which was where the fatalities occurred. Penned of areas, fences at the front the stand not allowing for quick exits and the police intially trying to stop fans getting out of the stand onto the pitch where what caused the fatalities.

 

The Taylor report does indicate these very same reasons for the deaths.

 

The move to all seater was a total knee jerk reaction and also a way for clubs to get a much wealthier class of supporter coming to games and spending more money. Quite simply if its not safe to stand at a football match then it should also not be safe to stand at any public gathering which in reality would be totally ridiculous. The whole notion of standing being dangerous is in itself ridiculous cause we don''t crawl to our seats - we have to walk to them which requires STANDING!

 

One good thing the Taylor report has done is made clubs improve their health and saftey and quality of facilities in very decent stadiums.

 

With this modern day health and safety combined with better facilities theirs no reason why some areas of safe standing (in our case the Barclay lower and snake pit) can''t be introduced into modern day stadia. This would actually improve health and safety because standing behind a crush barrier designed for people to stand behind is safer than standing behind a seat which only acts as a trip when pushed from behind.

 

Safe standing areas would an area of the ground designated for standing in (obviously!)

 

The standing area would have only the same capacity it would if the area was seated. Thats always been my arguement - if an area was turned back into a standing area and the capacity stayed the same then how on earth could it possibly be more dangourous?

 

Every spectator would have their own personal, numbered barrier, which would totally eliminate crowd surges which we used to see back in the day!

 

Safe standing areas would only be allowed on the lower tiers of stands.

 

No standing in aisles and exitsd would be permitted.

 

No fences or penns would be allowed.

 

My personal viewpoint is that I''d rather stand at a football game but when I''ve got a seat I''d like to sit in it. I spent many years on the old terracing on the River end old and new stands, the old Barclay and the old South stand before the awful blue seats were put in about 1975 and absolutely loved it. I hate all the stand up sit down culture of the current Barlcay lower tier. Its now 18 and a bit years since we last saw standing areas at Carrow Road yet people in the Barclay lower would rather stand up and that includes fans not old enough to remember being allowed to legally stand. 

 

The authorites need to open their eyes and realise that standing up isn''t dangerous and wouldn''t make football stadiums unsafe particularly given the modern day ground regulations and control measures. Some people prefer to stand and others prefer to sit - Lets get a grip of this situation by applying common sense and allow grounds to have some areas of safe standing under the strict guidlines that I''ve mentioned and that Don Foster MP mentions! 

 

Anyone who does not see sense in what I''m saying (Canary on here presumably?) and goes to football games are very ignorant!

[Robert N. LiM 4,246]

Great post, GRdisaster. Literally could not have put it better myself.

I have to say I am a lot less confident in Mr Foster delivering anything after his gutless performance in the tuition fees vote on Thursday.

The argument has been won, though.