Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Adam NCFC

'Safe standing area'

Recommended Posts

Don Foster MP - Liberal Democrats.Just been said on SkySportsNews that he is putting forward plans, and a vote for safe standing area''s in the ground. Surely a good thing for atmosphere!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have to agree. If you can stand at concerts like some of the ones I''ve been to then standing at Football should easily be done.

I mean if I''m allowed to stand at concerts for bands like "Five Finger Death Punch" and "Sick of it all" and still come out in one piece then you should be allowed to stand up at something much safer in football.

Davo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Adam NCFC"]Don Foster MP - Liberal Democrats.

Just been said on SkySportsNews that he is putting forward plans, and a vote for safe standing area''s in the ground. Surely a good thing for atmosphere!


[/quote]

And just who will foot the bill for ripping out the seats and altering the concrete steps and putting in barriers?

Just a question that is all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Adam NCFC"]Don Foster MP - Liberal Democrats.Just been said on SkySportsNews that he is putting forward plans, and a vote for safe standing area''s in the ground. Surely a good thing for atmosphere!

[/quote]

And just who will foot the bill for ripping out the seats and altering the concrete steps and putting in barriers?

Just a question that is all.

[/quote]You asked this before. Obviously the club. Of course Norwich wouldn''t be able to afford it at the minute but would be nice to have the option when a time comes that we do have money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And by extension the fans. I for one would be happy to pay the same price for my season ticket in return for being able to stand in the Lower Barclay. There''d be room for more people, so it shouldn''t take too long to pay for itself.

That''s what happened when the seats were put in, after all. It was far more expensive to rebuild stadiums as all-seater than it would be to introduce some safe standing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Adam NCFC"]Don Foster MP - Liberal Democrats.

Just been said on SkySportsNews that he is putting forward plans, and a vote for safe standing area''s in the ground. Surely a good thing for atmosphere!


[/quote]

And just who will foot the bill for ripping out the seats and altering the concrete steps and putting in barriers?

Just a question that is all.

[/quote]

im sure we had this debate before and for some reason you got into your thick head that as soon as the bill would be passed we would have to make the changes and we wouldnt be able to afford them. Obviusly we wouldnt be able to afford it at the moment but at least its an option. I think we also agreed your best off tucked up with your blankets and coco in the city or river end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Adam NCFC"]Don Foster MP - Liberal Democrats.

Just been said on SkySportsNews that he is putting forward plans, and a vote for safe standing area''s in the ground. Surely a good thing for atmosphere!


[/quote]

And just who will foot the bill for ripping out the seats and altering the concrete steps and putting in barriers?

Just a question that is all.

[/quote]

Is it really essential to make any alterations? E and D blocks of the lower Barclay already stand quite safely - when they''re allowed to do so!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="tom1902"]Hillsborough was considered `safe`[/quote]

and it probably was untill thousands of liverpool fans went in without tickets or authorised to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="tom1902"]Hillsborough was considered `safe`[/quote]Hillsborough was not safe, it''s been established since the event that the safety certificates were not valid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]And by extension the fans. I for one would be happy to pay the same price for my season ticket in return for being able to stand in the Lower Barclay. There''d be room for more people, so it shouldn''t take too long to pay for itself. That''s what happened when the seats were put in, after all. It was far more expensive to rebuild stadiums as all-seater than it would be to introduce some safe standing.[/quote]

As I understand it, there would not actually be an increase in capacity. Each fan would have their own numbered crash barrier as opposed to a seat. They certainly would not be squeezing 5-6,000 into the Lower Barclay for instance if it was made standing.

I''m all for it though, I''ve still got cuts and bruises down my shins from the Ipswich game which were casued by the seats.

Does anybody have any idea as to the costs involved in making an area safe standing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="E Block Loyal"]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]And by extension the fans. I for one would be happy to pay the same price for my season ticket in return for being able to stand in the Lower Barclay. There''d be room for more people, so it shouldn''t take too long to pay for itself. That''s what happened when the seats were put in, after all. It was far more expensive to rebuild stadiums as all-seater than it would be to introduce some safe standing.[/quote]

As I understand it, there would not actually be an increase in capacity. Each fan would have their own numbered crash barrier as opposed to a seat. They certainly would not be squeezing 5-6,000 into the Lower Barclay for instance if it was made standing.

I''m all for it though, I''ve still got cuts and bruises down my shins from the Ipswich game which were casued by the seats.

Does anybody have any idea as to the costs involved in making an area safe standing?

[/quote]That may be true but i''d like to think that even if they did have numbered ''standing places'' that they could generally fit a few more spaces in, as seats and the construction of them probably take up more room.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="s10_yellow"][quote user="tom1902"]Hillsborough was considered `safe`[/quote]

Hillsborough was not safe, it''s been established since the event that the safety certificates were not valid.
[/quote]

I seem to remember a certain wire-netting barrier that contributed to the suffocation of supporters. Without that barrier there would not have been the deaths, as supporters would have been able to seek sanctuary on the pitch. All-seater stadia was a total over-reaction to that disaster IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="E Block Loyal"]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]And by extension the fans. I for one would be happy to pay the same price for my season ticket in return for being able to stand in the Lower Barclay. There''d be room for more people, so it shouldn''t take too long to pay for itself. That''s what happened when the seats were put in, after all. It was far more expensive to rebuild stadiums as all-seater than it would be to introduce some safe standing.[/quote]

As I understand it, there would not actually be an increase in capacity. Each fan would have their own numbered crash barrier as opposed to a seat. They certainly would not be squeezing 5-6,000 into the Lower Barclay for instance if it was made standing.

I''m all for it though, I''ve still got cuts and bruises down my shins from the Ipswich game which were casued by the seats.

Does anybody have any idea as to the costs involved in making an area safe standing?

[/quote]

That may be true but i''d like to think that even if they did have numbered ''standing places'' that they could generally fit a few more spaces in, as seats and the construction of them probably take up more room.
[/quote]

I''m not sure they would to be honest. Given the concern over standing at football post Hillsborough, any legislation (and let''s be honest it almost certainly will not be allowed) would be hugely cautious. Large gangways are still going to be needed etc, and over crowding of stands will simply not be tolerated.  

 

Have a look at how safe standing is organised on the continent, the best example being Germany. Due to UEFA regs, the standing areas must allow for temporoary seats to be installed for European matches, so it''s not as simple as putting in ''a few more places.''

 

The point is that there would be no increase in capacity and, therefore, the previous poster''s assetion that the standing areas would ''pay for itself'' isn''t true. The Club could ask fans that were in favour to contribute towards costs or pay higher season ticker prices, but that''s a completely different argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Eblock my knees are smased in still.

We can only hope that it will open the discussion, and maybe in a few years it could be implimented.


I thought that the taylor report said seats would have stopped the disaster but stopped short of reccommending them? or am i wrong?

Lastly, is it not the FA that have banned standing as opposed to it being in the statute book?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="E Block Loyal"]

I''ve still got cuts and bruises down my shins from the Ipswich game which were casued by the seats.

 

[/quote]

You must have very aggressive seats where you sit then! The ones around me are very well behaved and don''t move at all during the games. Might be a good idea to e-mail the club to see if you can have those seats around you fitted with muzzles! [:S]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="E Block Loyal"]

I''ve still got cuts and bruises down my shins from the Ipswich game which were casued by the seats.

 

[/quote]

You must have very aggressive seats where you sit then! The ones around me are very well behaved and don''t move at all during the games. Might be a good idea to e-mail the club to see if you can have those seats around you fitted with muzzles! [:S]

 

[/quote]

Spare my sides.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only area of Carrow Road that currently remains from the old standing days is the River End (sorry, N&P) lower tier. Even if they did allow standing to return to this area, the exists would probably need to be reprofiled and enlarged to seped up evacuation.

 

The Barclay lower tier would need to be completely reprofiled to cater for standing to be reintroduced  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People must move on from the idea that standing is safe or better, A large amount of research has been done on this and seated stadiums are proved to be safer, and as David McNally has said previously Safety is NCFC primary goal for games at Carrow Road.

Move on and come into the 21st Century.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Canary"]

People must move on from the idea that standing is safe or better, A large amount of research has been done on this and seated stadiums are proved to be safer, and as David McNally has said previously Safety is NCFC primary goal for games at Carrow Road.

Move on and come into the 21st Century.

 

[/quote]

happy clapper ^ How can the simple act of standing be dangerous if the area has sufficent scope for evacuation and closely regulated numbers inside. The old terraces were dangerous because far too many people were crammed in and fences esntially crushed people. All you have to do is control the numbers inside and by magic standing is safe. For example in my living room i am now standing safely and with little risk but if 50 people were to pile through the door im sure their would be injuries. All it takes is common sense and the health and safety brigade to pipe down and we england may be known across the world for having the best atmosphere again not a bunch of middle class fairies sipping wine and eating prawns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Canary, so all those stadia in Germany with large safe standing areas are dangerous are they? I think it`s you who needs to move into the 21st century......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="City penguin"][quote user="Canary"]

People must move on from the idea that standing is safe or better, A large amount of research has been done on this and seated stadiums are proved to be safer, and as David McNally has said previously Safety is NCFC primary goal for games at Carrow Road.

Move on and come into the 21st Century.

 

[/quote] happy clapper ^ How can the simple act of standing be dangerous if the area has sufficent scope for evacuation and closely regulated numbers inside. The old terraces were dangerous because far too many people were crammed in and fences esntially crushed people. All you have to do is control the numbers inside and by magic standing is safe. For example in my living room i am now standing safely and with little risk but if 50 people were to pile through the door im sure their would be injuries. All it takes is common sense and the health and safety brigade to pipe down and we england may be known across the world for having the best atmosphere again not a bunch of middle class fairies sipping wine and eating prawns.[/quote]

It is a matter of moving on from the previous time when standing was the norm to a better alternative which is safer than it was previously, You may not like Health and Safety items but we have to live with it because of legislation which NCFC has to adhere to.

  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="City penguin"][quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Adam NCFC"]Don Foster MP - Liberal Democrats.

Just been said on SkySportsNews that he is putting forward plans, and a vote for safe standing area''s in the ground. Surely a good thing for atmosphere!


[/quote]

And just who will foot the bill for ripping out the seats and altering the concrete steps and putting in barriers?

Just a question that is all.

[/quote] im sure we had this debate before and for some reason you got into your thick head that as soon as the bill would be passed we would have to make the changes and we wouldnt be able to afford them. Obviusly we wouldnt be able to afford it at the moment but at least its an option. I think we also agreed your best off tucked up with your blankets and coco in the city or river end.[/quote]

I shall be in the Nelson Hotel both before and after the game on Saturday if you wish to come and expand on your view about blankets,cocoa and me being thick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Canary"][quote user="City penguin"][quote user="Canary"]

People must move on from the idea that standing is safe or better, A large amount of research has been done on this and seated stadiums are proved to be safer, and as David McNally has said previously Safety is NCFC primary goal for games at Carrow Road.

Move on and come into the 21st Century.

 

[/quote] happy clapper ^ How can the simple act of standing be dangerous if the area has sufficent scope for evacuation and closely regulated numbers inside. The old terraces were dangerous because far too many people were crammed in and fences esntially crushed people. All you have to do is control the numbers inside and by magic standing is safe. For example in my living room i am now standing safely and with little risk but if 50 people were to pile through the door im sure their would be injuries. All it takes is common sense and the health and safety brigade to pipe down and we england may be known across the world for having the best atmosphere again not a bunch of middle class fairies sipping wine and eating prawns.[/quote]

It is a matter of moving on from the previous time when standing was the norm to a better alternative which is safer than it was previously, You may not like Health and Safety items but we have to live with it because of legislation which NCFC has to adhere to.

  

 

[/quote]Standing still is the norm. Thousands of fans all over the country stand  every week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And safe standing would solve a whole lot of bother over standing in seated areas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Don

Foster MP for Bath introduced the Safe Standing Bill to the Commons on

the 7th December 2010. This bill would allow standing at football

grounds. Here is a copy of his speech to the Commons:

"Mr Speaker, I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to give all football clubs the

freedom to build, or maintain existing, safe standing sections in their

stadia if they choose;

to establish minimum safety criteria that must be met for standing sections in football stadia;

and for connected purposes."

Mr Speaker, any debate on football stadia will inevitably - and rightly -

raise the spectre of the tragic events at Hillsborough in 1989 and

those, such as that at the Heysel stadium in 1985, that preceded it.

No debate about this topic can avoid addressing these tragedies and

their repercussions, which are still resonating with us even now.

The events of 15 April 1989, which saw the deaths of 96 people and the

injury of hundreds more, were uniquely horrific. An entire city has

struggled with that day''s trauma ever since.

The annual memorial services held at Anfield and elsewhere show that

that day is still keenly felt and will never be forgotten. Nor should it

be.

Nor should anyone believe that, in raising the possibility of

introducing safe standing in football grounds now, I am critical of the

actions that were taken 20 years ago to outlaw standing at matches in

the top two football leagues.

I am in certainly not calling for a return to the old style terraces.

They were poorly designed, overcrowded, poorly monitored, and entirely

unsuitable for the purposes for which they were used.

A return to that world would be a retrograde, and wholly unacceptable, step.

Rather, today I am proposing something very different - another step

forward, to more modern, safe football stands; stands that provide what

fans want but do so with maximum safety.

After all standing is not inherently unsafe.

Lord Taylor''s report into Hillsborough cited many reasons why the disaster occurred.

The fact the crowd was standing was not one of those reasons.

Rather, it happened as a result of:

? Gross overcrowding

? A lack of concern for the safety and comfort of spectators,

? A lack of awareness of existing safety regulation, and

? The poor design of the old style terraces

The disaster happened because of a culture of negligence, not because standing is inherently unsafe.

Lord Taylor recommended all-seater stadia because, he argued;

a) seats establish individual areas for individual fans and give them more space and comfort

b) seats prevent crowd surging, and

c) seats make it easier to identify troublemakers in the crowds

I will come onto how modern safe standing preserves these features in a moment.

But it is worth noting that, in making his recommendations, Lord Taylor

believed that fans would become accustomed to sitting and come to prefer

it.

20 years later, thousands of fans in the Premiership and the Championship demonstrate that this is not the case.

And when fans stand in all-seater stadia today, it causes problems:

It ruins the experience for those who want to sit.

But equally, for many fans who prefer to stand, sitting ruins their experience.

And when they do stand - as many do - it is particularly unsafe.

Yet, as we know, preventing large numbers from standing in all-seater

stadia is extremely difficult for stewards and the police.

If it can be done safely - and it can be - I believe it would be far

better to have a mix of safe seating and safe standing areas in stadia

where clubs chose to offer such options.

That way, children, families, and those who want a more peaceful

experience could have it, while those who want to stand could exercise

that right.

And it can be done.

Countries like the United States, Canada, and Germany are certainly not

negligent towards their citizens'' safety. Yet these countries have

harnessed technological developments to create standing areas that are

safe.

They are a popular choice with supporters.

In such areas, as with seated areas, there are designated spaces for each fan.

There are barriers between rows, preventing surging, pushing or jostling.

Individual fans can be easily identified if they are causing trouble, since they are limited to their own individual spaces.

Thus the key reasons why Lord Taylor recommended seating can also all be met with safe standing.

Indeed, in many cases, each individual standing area comes with its own

flip down seat. This corresponds with UEFA and FIFA rules that require

international and European matches to be seating only.

There is absolutely no evidence that such standing areas, where properly

designed, managed and maintained, are unsafe for domestic matches.

As numerous polls have shown, they are overwhelmingly backed by supporters.

And by creating more space for fans, clubs could reduce the price of tickets offering another benefit for fans.

The question of standing is even more pressing for fans of Scunthorpe

FC. For them, promotion has come at a very high price. After their third

season in the top two tiers, they will have to have converted their

ground into an all-seating venue.

This will reduce the ground''s capacity - already the lowest in the

Championship - from 9000 to 8000. Neither the club nor its supporters

want this.

More seats means less space and so fewer supporters will get to see their team.

And if Scunthorpe is demoted in future, they will not be able to convert

some of their seats back to standing areas. The conversion will have

come at tremendous expense - Scunthorpe FC will have paid for the

privilege of ruining their own ground.

I am grateful to the Hon Members for Scunthorpe and for Brigg and Goole,

whose constituents are impacted by this change, for their support for

this Bill.

I am also grateful to the Minister for Sport for agreeing to, at least, consult with relevant bodies about the issue.

Sadly, I suspect he will hear - as I continue to - some out-dated criticisms.

Some will raise the issue of cost. But that, as my Bill proposes, should be a matter for individual clubs to decide.

Some will suggest that spectators have become used to sitting and like

it. But this is patently untrue as the long running campaigns by

football fans'' organisations show.

Some will argue that "statistics prove that seated stadia are safer than standing ones"

For some years the Football Licensing Authority (FLA) did claim this.

However, when these statistics were challenged as inaccurate, the FLA subsequently withdrew them.

As my Bill makes clear, minimum safety standards would be nationally

established before any new safe standing areas are permitted.

Some might claim that seating has reduced hooliganism. But even before Hillsborough, hooliganism was declining.

Inside grounds and outside, in clubs that are all seated and in clubs

that are terraced, hooliganism has receded. The character of this

country''s fans has changed for the better. For example, no England fans

were arrested at the World Cup in South Africa with the exception of the

practical joker who sneaked into the England team''s dressing room.

The decline in football hooliganism is not directly because of a move to

all seated stadia. Last week''s Home Office arrest figures show no

evidence of any link between grounds where standing is still allowed and

the number of arrests. There is no reason to believe that a move

introduce safe standing areas would mean an increase in hooliganism.

Finally, I have no doubt some will raise the issue of the UEFA and FIFA

rules that I mentioned earlier; that games under their jurisdiction must

be played in all-seater stadia.

But with the inclusion of flip down seats in each standing area, these

regulations present no problem as was demonstrated in the Veltins Arena

in Germany - used for the 2006 World Cup - and the Tivoli Stadium in

Innsbruck, Austria, which was used during Euro 2008.

I defy opponents of safe standing to demonstrate that these stadia are

unsafe, and that these countries are neglecting the safety of their fans

by allowing standing.

Following the Hillsborough disaster it was right to take action against

the old-style standing terraces. But modern developments mean that, as

other countries have shown, it is perfectly possible to introduce safe

standing into the stadia of Premiership and Championship Clubs - if the

clubs want to and when stringent safety standards are met.

I hope the House will support moves to allow clubs to consider such options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="City penguin"][quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Adam NCFC"]Don Foster MP - Liberal Democrats.

Just been said on SkySportsNews that he is putting forward plans, and a vote for safe standing area''s in the ground. Surely a good thing for atmosphere!


[/quote]

And just who will foot the bill for ripping out the seats and altering the concrete steps and putting in barriers?

Just a question that is all.

[/quote] im sure we had this debate before and for some reason you got into your thick head that as soon as the bill would be passed we would have to make the changes and we wouldnt be able to afford them. Obviusly we wouldnt be able to afford it at the moment but at least its an option. I think we also agreed your best off tucked up with your blankets and coco in the city or river end.[/quote]

I shall be in the Nelson Hotel both before and after the game on Saturday if you wish to come and expand on your view about blankets,cocoa and me being thick.

[/quote]

jesus im only pulling your leg, offering out people on the internet very brave of you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Firstly I dont think he was offering you out, secondly I think it was you who was ''mouthing'' off very ''bravely'' on the internet and till was just giving you the opportunity to tell him your thoughts in person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="mtv"]Firstly I dont think he was offering you out, secondly I think it was you who was ''mouthing'' off very ''bravely'' on the internet and till was just giving you the opportunity to tell him your thoughts in person.[/quote]

alright sorry Mrs tilson.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="the king"][quote user="Canary"][quote user="City penguin"][quote user="Canary"]

People must move on from the idea that standing is safe or better, A large amount of research has been done on this and seated stadiums are proved to be safer, and as David McNally has said previously Safety is NCFC primary goal for games at Carrow Road.

Move on and come into the 21st Century.

 

[/quote] happy clapper ^ How can the simple act of standing be dangerous if the area has sufficent scope for evacuation and closely regulated numbers inside. The old terraces were dangerous because far too many people were crammed in and fences esntially crushed people. All you have to do is control the numbers inside and by magic standing is safe. For example in my living room i am now standing safely and with little risk but if 50 people were to pile through the door im sure their would be injuries. All it takes is common sense and the health and safety brigade to pipe down and we england may be known across the world for having the best atmosphere again not a bunch of middle class fairies sipping wine and eating prawns.[/quote]

It is a matter of moving on from the previous time when standing was the norm to a better alternative which is safer than it was previously, You may not like Health and Safety items but we have to live with it because of legislation which NCFC has to adhere to.

  

 

[/quote]
Standing still is the norm. Thousands of fans all over the country stand  every week.

Well go support a club where you can stand to watch game if standing is so important to you.


[/quote]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...