Graham Paddons Beard 2,758 Posted November 13, 2010 Apologies for starting a new thread but I think we need to specifically debate this referee. I know several managers have complained that refs are being fast tracked beyond their ability. It is interesting to note Michael Oliver holds the record for the youngest ever FAPL ref and is still only 26. Age aside, which isn''t the issue, I wonder if he can possibly interperate the laws without the experience of playing. He was clearly conned by Hart - look at his initial reaction , he isn''t going to his pocket until it kicks off due to Harts histrionics. The pen was given by the linesman, so we can forgive him that, and PL was sent off on the word of the fourth official, so we can , reluctantly say that this wasn''t his fualt. But He lost the game well before this. He couldn''t even officiate over a drop ball without the players taking control. The Red-card-that-never-was was a cop out and additional 2 minutes was again a result of his incompetence. The lad, for that is what he is, is droppin like a stone. Tonight we see his incompetence in a Championship match. The golden child of the Referees Association , the experiment to prove the age old argument that young fit chaps can ref seasoned professionals so long as they are mentored ny Keith Hacket and Mike Riley has failed beyond belief. Don''t hold you breath that Holts red will be rescinded because that would confirm that these blokes can''t hack it and at long last some assistance via technology must be sought.Refs should get there when they are ready. Or not as the case may be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
William Darby 0 Posted November 13, 2010 I remember when Clattenburg breezed in as a top young ref... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
William Darby 0 Posted November 13, 2010 Personally I think a bit of fame and it goes to their head. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mello Yello 2,553 Posted November 14, 2010 The referee mafia will now have Norwich''s and Lambert''s card marked, they''ll close ranks and protect their own, especially the ''wet behind the ears'' Oliver.....I do think we are in for a ''rocky refereeing - rest of a season''......I will also be very surprised if Holt get''s his red rescinded..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim Allman 1 Posted November 14, 2010 Oliver sent off a West Brom player when they played against Blackpool and he rescinded the decsion, so hopefully City will get the same treatment. At least the game was on Sky where they have a load of different camera angles. At Gillingham away where Forster was sent off for nothing there was only one camera at the ground so there was no good film evidence to show that it was wrong, although we could all see it from the away end. From memory City didn''t even appeal the decision as they knew they would not be successful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JF 694 Posted November 14, 2010 Ex pro footballers should be refereeing matches, A ref needs to have played and understand the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canarydan23 4,749 Posted November 14, 2010 I''d be happy with just referees old enough to be ex-pro footballers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pete_norw 0 Posted November 14, 2010 [quote user="JF"]Ex pro footballers should be refereeing matches, A ref needs to have played and understand the game.[/quote]I think the biggest point here is, Why should the FA use the TV cameras to convict J Barton of violent conduct,? The ref never saw the incident, but he camera''s did, Last night the whole world and his wife saw what happened, Will the FA use the camera''s to prove the ref was wrong on 2 big talking points, the red card that Holt got and the red that wasn''t for the tackle on Cory Smith. IMO, the ref had decided we were not going to win. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow Wal 315 Posted November 14, 2010 Is football the only major sport where ex-proffesionals, who understand the game, do not officiate at matches?The old saying says that the best gamekeepers are ex-poachers. Referees are not coached in how to con-referees or how to dive or how to foul without being penalised or how to pull shirts, hold players etc. .......... players and ex-players have been! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BroadstairsR 0 Posted November 14, 2010 He reminded me of Jasper Carrot in his younger days. Jasper was always funny, this chap was not and clearly out of his depth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JF 694 Posted November 14, 2010 Just watching the FL show and the amount of bad refereeing decisions is shocking. Also if a ref has a poor game in the PL they get sent down to the Champ and so on, That is a joke, if they are not good enough for the PL they are not good enough for the Champ, it''s as if it''s not considered as important. That decision could cost us millions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barclay hero 0 Posted November 14, 2010 [quote user="JF"]Ex pro footballers should be refereeing matches, A ref needs to have played and understand the game.[/quote]Trouble is JF is that a lot of pro footballers dont know the laws of the game. How many times do you hear ex-pros either on Sky or Match of the Day saying "that shouldnt have been a penalty, he''d lost control of the ball/was going away from goal"? Fact is that any direct free kick in the box is a penalty - so if it would have been a free kick outside, it should be a pen inside. TBH refs dont give enough pens with all the pushing etc at cornersAs for the red card, remember its violent CONDUCT. You dont have to make contact with the player if there is violent intent, and remember the ref only sees it in real time. I was at the game yesterday and didnt get a clear view of the incident - Martin was between where I was and the incident - but having watched it on tv, its clear that Holt tries to pull out of the challenge. Yes a pro ref should have seen that from his viewpoint, but there was a split second to make up his mind, no replay and Harte''s ludicrous rolling about. A more experienced ref may have consulted his linesman - who would have had the reverse view - but an ex-pro wouldnt have been any differentWhere I think the ref did lose it was over the drop ball incident 3 or 4 minutes before - clash of heads, 2 players off the pitch, and the ref had stopped play. Fair enough there. If he''d have allowed a contested drop, then again no issues. What he SHOULD have done was shooed the Reading players up the pitch to allow Norwich to clear, OR allow Reading to put the ball out for a GK. Having said that there is nothing in the rules to stop Reading doing what they did - but a yellow card for "unsportsmanlike behaviour" would have calmed the incident down. Holt was spoken to during that incident and I wonder if the ref decided he was too wound up stillBack to your original post - would an ex pro have done it any differently - possibly - but would they have handled it the right way - probably not Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katie Borkins 1 Posted November 14, 2010 Clearly I have to be careful what I say here, but Ed Balls summed it up nicely when he said that "one man''s golden child is another man''s bastard son." We were most disappointed last night, not helped by having to share our viewing in the private Commons bar with the MP for Reading South-West, a Liberal Democrat whose name I shall not sully this board with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
First Wizard 0 Posted November 14, 2010 [quote user="Mello Yello"]The referee mafia will now have Norwich''s and Lambert''s card marked, they''ll close ranks and protect their own, especially the ''wet behind the ears'' Oliver.....I do think we are in for a ''rocky refereeing - rest of a season''......I will also be very surprised if Holt get''s his red rescinded..... [/quote] Agreed Mello, they never admit their mistakes...ranks will be closed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canaries Utd 0 Posted November 14, 2010 [quote user="Ed Miliband"]Clearly I have to be careful what I say here, but Ed Balls summed it up nicely when he said that "one man''s golden child is another man''s bastard son." We were most disappointed last night, not helped by having to share our viewing in the private Commons bar with the MP for Reading South-West, a Liberal Democrat whose name I shall not sully this board with.  [/quote]How did you type this when you are at the remembrance service in London? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katie Borkins 1 Posted November 14, 2010 [quote user="Canaries Utd"][quote user="Ed Miliband"]Clearly I have to be careful what I say here, but Ed Balls summed it up nicely when he said that "one man''s golden child is another man''s bastard son." We were most disappointed last night, not helped by having to share our viewing in the private Commons bar with the MP for Reading South-West, a Liberal Democrat whose name I shall not sully this board with. [/quote] How did you type this when you are at the remembrance service in London?[/quote]Any good leader must be able to multi-task. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
First Wazzock 1,003 Posted November 14, 2010 Every County FA in England has their ''Golden Child'', who will go right to the top (some counties more than one). It doesn''t matter one jot if they are useless at what they do the fact ''their face fits'' is everything. It is eliteist, and this is what you get. Michael Oliver SON of a league official, no doubt pushed on by his father at every available opportunity, nepotism at it''s best. It doesn''t matter how good he is, he can''t fail.What amazes me is the fact that all Referees are assessed every game and nothing seems to happen after a debacle like this. What the hell are the assessors doing? Can they not see how poor these jokers are? Who assesses the assessors? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
. 0 Posted November 14, 2010 [quote user="First Wazzock"]Every County FA in England has their ''Golden Child'', who will go right to the top (some counties more than one). It doesn''t matter one jot if they are useless at what they do the fact ''their face fits'' is everything. It is eliteist, and this is what you get. Michael Oliver SON of a league official, no doubt pushed on by his father at every available opportunity, nepotism at it''s best. It doesn''t matter how good he is, he can''t fail.What amazes me is the fact that all Referees are assessed every game and nothing seems to happen after a debacle like this. What the hell are the assessors doing? Can they not see how poor these jokers are? Who assesses the assessors?[/quote]Sadly this corruption extends to every aspect of life... It stinks...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grantroederdisaster 0 Posted November 14, 2010 Apologies for starting a new thread but I think we need to specifically debate this referee. I know several managers have complained that refs are being fast tracked beyond their ability. It is interesting to note Michael Oliver holds the record for the youngest ever FAPL ref and is still only 26. Age aside, which isn''t the issue, I wonder if he can possibly interperate the laws without the experience of playing. He was clearly conned by Hart - look at his initial reaction , he isn''t going to his pocket until it kicks off due to Harts histrionics. The pen was given by the linesman, so we can forgive him that, and PL was sent off on the word of the fourth official, so we can , reluctantly say that this wasn''t his fualt. But He lost the game well before this. He couldn''t even officiate over a drop ball without the players taking control. The Red-card-that-never-was was a cop out and additional 2 minutes was again a result of his incompetence. The lad, for that is what he is, is droppin like a stone. Tonight we see his incompetence in a Championship match. The golden child of the Referees Association , the experiment to prove the age old argument that young fit chaps can ref seasoned professionals so long as they are mentored ny Keith Hacket and Mike Riley has failed beyond belief. Don''t hold you breath that Holts red will be rescinded because that would confirm that these blokes can''t hack it and at long last some assistance via technology must be sought.Refs should get there when they are ready. Or not as the case may be. The penalty last night was dead cert penalty. Any Norwich fans saying otherwise are loking atv it through Canary tinted glasses! The rest of your post is right. The ref lost it big time and was conned by Ian Harte. I''m worried that the FA will try to defend him by not rescinding the red card? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
improper fraction 0 Posted November 14, 2010 I find it interesting that there is no mention of Oliver''s playing record. When I was training to be a teacher, a fellow student played for Crystal Palace Ladies and was also a qualified ref (at what level I cannot say). I looked into training as a ref to improve my knowledge of the rules for PE lessons and after-school clubs. I was given the information that I had to play the game regularly in order to do so. I didn''t play so couldn''t train and that was to ref at amateur levels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Row D Seat 7 0 Posted November 14, 2010 I doubt that the red card will get withdrawn. I just have a feeling. Yes, the challenge wasn''t bad, but I think that after withdrawing one of Oliver''s red''s in the Blackpool/West Brom match, they will not want to withdraw another, especially as both matches were live on sky.I think the FA/ref''s associations etc look after themselves in situations like this. Should Oliver now drop down to League 1? Yes. Will he? No. Why? Because it looks bad on the ref''s associations, Hackett, Riley etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
First Wazzock 1,003 Posted November 14, 2010 [quote user="Row D Seat 7"]I doubt that the red card will get withdrawn. I just have a feeling. Yes, the challenge wasn''t bad, but I think that after withdrawing one of Oliver''s red''s in the Blackpool/West Brom match, they will not want to withdraw another, especially as both matches were live on sky. I think the FA/ref''s associations etc look after themselves in situations like this. Should Oliver now drop down to League 1? Yes. Will he? No. Why? Because it looks bad on the ref''s associations, Hackett, Riley etc.[/quote]I also will not be suprised if the decision is not overturned, as it will be a major loss of face on the part of the Ref and the officials.It will be rather sad if the decision is not overturned after hearing the opposing manager (and fans), TV pundits and everyone who watched the game say it was a farcical decision.I believe an ''overturning'' of the decision is based on if the Ref ''wants to review'' his decision. If he says no then thats the end of it, but surely he shouldn''t be asked it should be solely in the hands of an independant review board Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nexus_Canary 1,206 Posted November 14, 2010 Surely this has to be over turned ?!When most people ( pundits included ) said it was a harsh yellow even it has to be over turned.Also think guys, if Mr Oliver was demoted from Prem to Champ then why on earth would they put him on National Tv ?? Surely allocate him a less obvious game... UNLESS someone wanted him to make a prat of himself on national tv and get an excuse to get rid of him ?If we keep the red and have to suffer the 2 point loss BUT Mr Oliver is told to go work for Gunny at Carphone warehouse then I think the winner will be football and I''d gladly accept the 2 point / red card loss in the knowledge that this clown couldnt spooge up another pro game again ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beauseant 0 Posted November 14, 2010 [quote user="First Wazzock"]Every County FA in England has their ''Golden Child'', who will go right to the top (some counties more than one). It doesn''t matter one jot if they are useless at what they do the fact ''their face fits'' is everything. It is eliteist, and this is what you get. Michael Oliver SON of a league official, no doubt pushed on by his father at every available opportunity, nepotism at it''s best. It doesn''t matter how good he is, he can''t fail.What amazes me is the fact that all Referees are assessed every game and nothing seems to happen after a debacle like this. What the hell are the assessors doing? Can they not see how poor these jokers are? Who assesses the assessors?[/quote] All too true Wazzy. Having sufered the "delights" of Steve Artiss for many years I know all about County golden boys. I also remember a game involving the son of a former ref. The pitch was a bit hard but had some give. Both sides wanted to play, the ref agreed, and then his dad said "if someone gets hurt and sues, it could harm your career" whereupon he called the game off. A 35 year old simply doesn''t have the wisdom or gravitas to control games in the top tiers, but they are also so fragile that they are backed at all costs, which is why, despite overwhelming evidence, Holt''s red card will stand. He''s merely collateral damage in the unstoppable rise of Master Oliver. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heresyourfathersgun 0 Posted November 14, 2010 I think it''s Lambert who''s in for the biggest problem - it''s his third red card in two seasons - one for Colchester last year v Yeovil and the Tranmere game.I expect him to be spanked soundly.Holt might be lucky if they look at the video properly.I''m not certain if Karacan be charged if the ref saw it and decided there was no offence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
First Wazzock 1,003 Posted November 15, 2010 OK now it''s Monday, so when can we expect to hear the official line on the Ref''s performance.As Craig Revell-Horwood would say, it''s Dis-arse-ter Dahling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites