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ManchesterCanary

Midfield and Mentality lost it not the Ref

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I disagree with most posts, I thought the ref had a reasonable game, particularly up to the Holt incident, letting the teams play. Sure he got the sending off wrong but it was a tough call in real time and he was unfortunately influenced by a cheating Harte who looked as if he had been hit on the shin by a 4x2. Should he be influenced by that? Of course not but he is young and only human. The penalty was the right call and was flagged by the Linesman anyway. Lambert never regained his usual composure in the 2nd half and the ref had no choice to send him to the stands after it was reported by the fourth official. The extra added time was also as a result of Lambert''s indiscipline, fortunately Reading did not get the winner. Sure the sending off was a bad time but the players obviously did not regain composure during half-time and we lost it in the 2nd half not because of the ref but due to our poor shape. The players came out undisciplined in formation and looked like rabbits in the headlights. We are not the first team to go down to 10 men and we should still have had the professionalism and guile to maintain control of the game. Our midfield played so far too deep it was ridiculous, basically midfield was non-existent. If we had kept our shape and used Martin/Jackson well I believe we could have defended an average team quite easily and possibly nicked another goal. The only difference from the 1st half should have been that we had one up front instead of two. As a result we allowed Reading to create wave after wave of attacks from midfield with the inevitable result. It was a good point gained in the end (glass half full) but should have been three and we played well enough in the 1st half to suggest we can make the play-offs. I really hope the manager, team and supporters do not make a big issue of the ref this week but just put it behind them and move on. 

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Yes, he got the decision very, very wrong, and was conned, thats the whole point of all the posts! His inability to get that decision right cost us the game, absolutely no question about it. Reading looked toothless and ineffective, and it was only the ref''s howler that let them back in.Norwich were brilliant last night, pre and post sending off, the ref robbed us of two points.

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Oh and every pundit who has viewed it has said it was barely even a yellow. Reading fans on their messageboard thought it was wrong, even Leeds fans on their messageboard thought it was harsh. And we had an Ipswich fan on here last night who also thought it ridiculous!It was one awful decision that swung the game, and what I have typed above shows its not just us viewing it through yellow tinted glasses!

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The decision cost us the game I have no doubt about that. However after going down to 10 men I thought our tactics in the second half were shocking, -1 man should not make the difference that did. I also think we saw the importance of Holt to the team last night, as in the Second half none of the strikers could hold up the ball and relieve the pressure. I think had it been Martin sent off and not Hold we would have come away with a win.

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[quote user="morty"]Yes, he got the decision very, very wrong, and was conned, thats the whole point of all the posts! His inability to get that decision right cost us the game, absolutely no question about it. Reading looked toothless and ineffective, and it was only the ref''s howler that let them back in.

Norwich were brilliant last night, pre and post sending off, the ref robbed us of two points.
[/quote]

If the ref was conned then it was Harte that cost us the 2 points, not the ref.  Ive put a longish post on the other thread about the ref losing it over the drop ball, and Holt being still wound up and I think thats why he sent Holt off.  I think there is a good chance of an appeal though

Back to the OP, its ironic the Reading fans were having a go at the ref just before the red card.  I dont think the ref had a good game, but then looking at it another way, we can forgive players for cocking things up - such as Hoolahan failing to hit the target from 12 yards v QPR - but not refs when they make mistakes.  I do think the whole point of giving Oliver the game last night was to put him in a televised clash that was non-prem and historically has had no controversy.  A bit of a "healer" following his appearance in the Blackpool v West Brom game.  Nothing wrong with that as such, you have to get experience somewhere and whilst it affects the teams involved (ie us) its part of life.  Unless youre Chelsea or Man U youre not going to get top refs all the time.  However once it kicked off he was stuck and had no experience or maturity to fall back on.

The pen I thought was clear at the time, though watching the recorded sky + version its not - the Reading player makes the most of it.  Holts red card could have been referred to the Lino, and Lamberts sending off was purely down to Lamberts frustration - something that he needs to keep control of.  The other mistake Lambert made was not bringing on Jackson at the start of the 2nd half - Martin did more running than hes done for a while but we cleared the ball only for it to come straight back.  Once Jackson came on, Reading had to leave 1 or 2 players back with him and it meant we had a bit more room to clear the ball away. 

But then hindsights a wonderful thing is it not - whether youre a manager or a ref

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MC wrote...I believe we could have defended an average team quite easily ...But I don''t believe they are an average team. They have an excellent attack. We had trouble containing them in the first half, & their tactics second half were spot on.The only thing that slowed them down was the knowledge we were going to score more goals; once that threat had gone it was game over. I must say I think I would have been tempted to take Martin off for Jackson & left McNamee on with instructions to push on & support Jackson when possible. It''s the first time I''ve had a good look at McNamee & I was impressed - very tricky, & got some useful tackles in as well.

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[quote user="morty"]Yes, he got the decision very, very wrong, and was conned, thats the whole point of all the posts! His inability to get that decision right cost us the game, absolutely no question about it. Reading looked toothless and ineffective, and it was only the ref''s howler that let them back in.

Norwich were brilliant last night, pre and post sending off, the ref robbed us of two points.
[/quote]

Hmm, really? [^o)]

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Ahhhhhhhh..... reality creeping in at last.Blaming the ref is the oldest trick in the book. Had the ''luck'' gone the other way and we''d won by a mile.... nothing would have been heard other than the lame chant..... Premiership here we come.Swings and roundabouts guys..... swings and roundabouts.

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[quote user="Cluckbert Chase"]Ahhhhhhhh..... reality creeping in at last.

Blaming the ref is the oldest trick in the book. Had the ''luck'' gone the other way and we''d won by a mile.... nothing would have been heard other than the lame chant..... Premiership here we come.

Swings and roundabouts guys..... swings and roundabouts.
[/quote]

Do you honestly think we would have played like than in the 2nd half had we have still had 11 men?!

of course it is the refs fault.

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[quote user="morty"]Oh and every pundit who has viewed it has said it was barely even a yellow. Reading fans on their messageboard thought it was wrong, even Leeds fans on their messageboard thought it was harsh. And we had an Ipswich fan on here last night who also thought it ridiculous!

It was one awful decision that swung the game, and what I have typed above shows its not just us viewing it through yellow tinted glasses!
[/quote]

Thanks for that.I wasn''t sure if it was yellow tinted,beer stained glasses as well,but after reading 99% of comments on here,and hearing from my mate watching at home,i feel justifiably? mugged.[Y]

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Even though the Holt sending off was a diabolical decision there are plenty of times where players get sent off and the team with ten men still end up coming out on top, we had a two goal start on them after the sending off and I thought we may have nicked another one on the break to leave them needing three goals to get a draw but apart from the Martin header I don''t think we threatened to score in the second half. We really needed someone with pace to hit them on the break which we didn''t have and as a result we were unable to get out for much of the time. At half time I thought we could still win it but having allowed them to get level with 30 minutes to play I suppose it''s a good point in the end.We really need at least 4 points from the next two games now which will be far from easy with Leeds being in good form and local derbys being notoriously difficult games to win.

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[quote user="ManchesterCanary"]I disagree with most posts, I thought the ref had a reasonable game, particularly up to the Holt incident, letting the teams play. Sure he got the sending off wrong but it was a tough call in real time and he was unfortunately influenced by a cheating Harte who looked as if he had been hit on the shin by a 4x2. Should he be influenced by that? Of course not but he is young and only human. The penalty was the right call and was flagged by the Linesman anyway. Lambert never regained his usual composure in the 2nd half and the ref had no choice to send him to the stands after it was reported by the fourth official. The extra added time was also as a result of Lambert''s indiscipline, fortunately Reading did not get the winner. Sure the sending off was a bad time but the players obviously did not regain composure during half-time and we lost it in the 2nd half not because of the ref but due to our poor shape. The players came out undisciplined in formation and looked like rabbits in the headlights. We are not the first team to go down to 10 men and we should still have had the professionalism and guile to maintain control of the game. Our midfield played so far too deep it was ridiculous, basically midfield was non-existent. If we had kept our shape and used Martin/Jackson well I believe we could have defended an average team quite easily and possibly nicked another goal. The only difference from the 1st half should have been that we had one up front instead of two. As a result we allowed Reading to create wave after wave of attacks from midfield with the inevitable result. It was a good point gained in the end (glass half full) but should have been three and we played well enough in the 1st half to suggest we can make the play-offs. I really hope the manager, team and supporters do not make a big issue of the ref this week but just put it behind them and move on.  [/quote]Ok yes he was having an average match up to then, but a massive error then crippled his confidence and control of the game. He was woeful in the 2nd half getting decisions wrong for both sides. I really had no idea what he was going to do next each time he blew his whistle. If it really was a red, the tackle on Korey most certainly was also, and the second he didnt even give a foul was the final confirmation he''d completely lost control of the game and had been seriously affected (which top referees simply cant be) by the sending off whether it was right or wrong.I can understand refs making the odd poor decision, but there then has to be consistency and control, and Oliver didnt show any of that once he''d sent Holt off - he looked like a scared little boy that just wanted to go home.

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We defend poorly with 11 men on the pitch, what hope did we have with 10?!

For that reason, I blame the idiotic ref!

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Lambert misjudged the tactics at the start of the second half. Having Martin up front on his own and the midfield playing deep, left us open to wave after wave of attacks on our goal. Credit to the man, he did change it with his substutions, because of that we held onto a draw.

As for Oliver the Ref. He has been ''fast tracked'' by the FA When he clearly does not deserve it. Blackpool against WBA match he gave the victory to the home side by sending two baggies players off  (Ibanez and Jara) very early in the match. The red card for Ibanez has subsequently been rescinded upon appeal, because of this mistake Oliver was sent to ref in the Championship at Reading. Will his next match be in Division One ?

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[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

[quote user="Cluckbert Chase"]Ahhhhhhhh..... reality creeping in at last.Blaming the ref is the oldest trick in the book. Had the ''luck'' gone the other way and we''d won by a mile.... nothing would have been heard other than the lame chant..... Premiership here we come.Swings and roundabouts guys..... swings and roundabouts.[/quote]

Do you honestly think we would have played like than in the 2nd half had we have still had 11 men?!

of course it is the refs fault.

[/quote]Plenty of teams go on to win with 10 men...  It simply proves how important Grant Holt is to the team as a whole and we''re going to struggle in every department until he returns.... just as we did without Darren Huckerby.Although not a ''one man team''.... we are way off challenging for promotion and I think it''s about time everybody got real and accepted that.

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I agree with Manchester Canary. The whole Holt incident started when Russell Martin fiddled about with the "drop ball" kick. He took a first touch, bringing the ball in play, and then could not make up his mind what to do. As usual Holt then was in the thick of a wasted argument. I was screaming at the TV for him to get away and even more when he started to go towards Harte. It was definitely not a red card but ref was influenced by his attitude just previously. That''s no excuse but I suspect Holt has a reputation.

Yes we got it all wrong in secondhalf. Defended too deeply, which is becoming a regular habit,and as against Millwall nobody in midfield got a grip and held the ball. The ball was just aimlessly hoofed up field and returned immediatedly to put us under pressure again.

We lacked discipline and leadership on the pitch. With a bit of both we should have won comfortably at bnoth Millwall and Reading.

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Many have said that teams with 10 men go onto win, and we''ve shown that in the past we''ve been able to play well with 10 men (especially in the game last year when Holt was sent off, and another when Forster was red carded). However I think it was the timing of it that was the killer. Had that happened three minutes into the second half, I think we''d have been fine.However just before half time with the game lost; Reading''s manager could say, all out attack; we''ve got nothing to lose and we don''t deserve anything. The mentality behind it would be let''s go for this.Ours would have been; we deserve this win and we have been conned. The mentality could have been nothing but let''s hold onto this.Those two coupled together meant we had it against us, and anyone who saw the match would have seen yeah, the tactics for winning the game in the second half were all wrong, but the boys did a mighty fine job of keeping it down to 2, because it was only ever going to have been more than that if anything.

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[quote user="morty"]Oh and every pundit who has viewed it has said it was barely even a yellow. Reading fans on their messageboard thought it was wrong, even Leeds fans on their messageboard thought it was harsh. And we had an Ipswich fan on here last night who also thought it ridiculous!

It was one awful decision that swung the game, and what I have typed above shows its not just us viewing it through yellow tinted glasses!
[/quote]

I''m thinking now along the lines of a sin bin. A player is thus sent off for 10 or 15 minutes for a bad foul and thus if a ref makes the wrong decision at least it is not terminal. Then after the match the offence can be viewed by video by a panel and a long or short ban applied. If the referee made an awful decision as per Holt then nothing further happens and at least the bad decision did not have too much influence on the match and future matches. The way that reds are being handed out is simply ridiculous at the moment and is ruining the game for me, and I''m really pleased I was not at Reading yesterday as I think I could have lost my cool.   

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[quote user="vos"]I agree with Manchester Canary. The whole Holt incident started when Russell Martin fiddled about with the "drop ball" kick. He took a first touch, bringing the ball in play, and then could not make up his mind what to do. As usual Holt then was in the thick of a wasted argument. I was screaming at the TV for him to get away and even more when he started to go towards Harte. It was definitely not a red card but ref was influenced by his attitude just previously. That''s no excuse but I suspect Holt has a reputation.

Yes we got it all wrong in secondhalf. Defended too deeply, which is becoming a regular habit,and as against Millwall nobody in midfield got a grip and held the ball. The ball was just aimlessly hoofed up field and returned immediatedly to put us under pressure again.

We lacked discipline and leadership on the pitch. With a bit of both we should have won comfortably at bnoth Millwall and Reading.[/quote]Spot on [Y]

Holt as captain should have been providing that leadership and discipline, instead of putting in silly tackles miles away from the ball when we are 3-1 up away from home and looking to be in complete control of the match.

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[quote user="Brendo "]

[quote user="morty"]Yes, he got the decision very, very wrong, and was conned, thats the whole point of all the posts! His inability to get that decision right cost us the game, absolutely no question about it. Reading looked toothless and ineffective, and it was only the ref''s howler that let them back in.Norwich were brilliant last night, pre and post sending off, the ref robbed us of two points.[/quote]

Hmm, really? [^o)]

[/quote]Any fan that knows football, or has even played it should know how hard it is to play against 10 men for 45 minutes!! I felt extremly proud of the way the players came out and half time and held on for a point.... Especially as Reading made it 3-3 with 30 minutes to go, we weathered the storm and some crucial saves from Ruddy we made it through. Listern Reading are no mugs and they took 3 points off Doncaster after being 3-1 down and Donny had 11 men. Instead of being critical of the team i think its really important that we get behind them and talk positively as the next three games are extremly important.

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