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Are we defensively as good as we were in 2003 / 04 ?

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In 2003 - 04 we won 28 games, drew 10, and lost 8.  We scored 79 and conceded 39.  In the 6 seasons since, only 5 teams have conceded 39 or fewer goals.  I think the lowest figure since then was 37 over the season.In 03 / 04, our back four was Drury, Mackay, Edworthy, and Fleming.To finish in the top 10 in the championship you usually need to score 60-80 goals over the course of the season.  To finish in the top 2, you usually need to concede 45 or less.  The play-off position teams often score as many, or more goals, but tend to concede 10-20 goals more than the teams who promote.I think we have proven that we have goals in our team so far this season.  20 goals from 14 games suggests over 60 goals over 46 matches.  18 goals conceded from 14 suggests mid-table is more likely than the top end though.With that in mind, how do we compare defensively against our promotion team of that season ?  Are Ward and Barnett as good as Mackay and Fleming ? 

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As far as the full backs are concerned I dont think there are much difference - Drury the same,  Martin & Eddy similar.  I do think that Ward & Barnett are quite a bit better overall than Flem & Mackay.

To balance that Green was far superior to Ruddy and with holt and francis as a buffer in front I suspect that defensively the 04 team is slightly better despite the current back for being superior!  

Not make much sense I know - but thats my twopenworth!

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That''s a very good reply Zipper, both Holt, and Francis before he became disinterested, were immense at breaking up play.  Maybe we need another ball winner in midfield to shut things down alongside Smith ?It seems that we are as likely to keep a clean sheet as not, which must be a good sign.  Rather worrying is that we''ve conceded 3 goals 3 times, is this a sign of switching off, maybe after we''ve scored goals, such as the Leicester game, or at set-pieces ?  And how do you fix that ?So far this season :6 clean sheets1 goal * 22 goals * 23 goals * 3

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An interesting point blah.

This team still needs a few more games together to catch up with the 3/4 team.

Once that "combination" and understanding is there then I think we have a very sound back 5.

The only other thing to consider is the formation we are playing puts more pressure on our "backs" to get further forward and thus leaves us a bit more open.

 

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To be fair to our current team, I think I''m right in saying that most of our defense back then had been playing together for a few seasons, which would lead to the understanding you mention Butler.

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[quote user="The Butler"]

An interesting point blah.

This team still needs a few more games together to catch up with the 3/4 team.

Once that "combination" and understanding is there then I think we have a very sound back 5.

The only other thing to consider is the formation we are playing puts more pressure on our "backs" to get further forward and thus leaves us a bit more open.

 

[/quote]

We have to be don''t we Butler? Surely everything about the club now is better than 03/04 when, as you say, Delia was running it. That being the case I fully expect to be promoted by at least 20 points.

 

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]That''s a very good reply Zipper, both Holt, and Francis before he became disinterested, were immense at breaking up play.  Maybe we need another ball winner in midfield to shut things down alongside Smith ?It seems that we are as likely to keep a clean sheet as not, which must be a good sign.  Rather worrying is that we''ve conceded 3 goals 3 times, is this a sign of switching off, maybe after we''ve scored goals, such as the Leicester game, or at set-pieces ?  And how do you fix that ?So far this season :6 clean sheets1 goal * 22 goals * 23 goals * 3[/quote]Do you not see Crofts as a ball-winner, then? I think Crofts and Smith offer excellent defensive cover. The problem is consistency - Ruddy will hopefully come good although the jury''s still out, but other than Russell Martin, we haven''t had any ever-presents in the back four. Ward has taken a while to get match fit, and Barnett is new to the setup, but if we could sign Barnett permanently in January, and have a back four of Drury/Ward/Barnett/Martin with Smith and Crofts in front of them, then if we get lucky with injuries like we did in 03/04 a top-six finish is highly probable. Ward/Barnett as a defensive partnership are about as good as you''ll get at Championship level, Steven Smith looks a capable deputy for Drury, and it''s only at right-back that we have a lack of cover really.

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OK, sorry Sports desk Blah[:$]

I believe our current centre backs are better than 03/04 but reserves like Askou are "a million miles away". The fullbacks are as good. But we had a brilliant keeper back then and Ruddy''s not that good yet.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

OK, sorry Sports desk Blah[:$]

I believe our current centre backs are better than 03/04 but reserves like Askou are "a million miles away". The fullbacks are as good. But we had a brilliant keeper back then and Ruddy''s not that good yet.

 

 

[/quote]As I recall, though, other than a relatively inexperienced Jason Shackell we didn''t have a great deal of backup in 2003/4, we just got lucky with injuries. Wasn''t our backup right-back Keith Briggs? Just goes to show what you can achieve if you can keep your players fit. I think the year Reading walked the Championship title they only used about 16/17 outfield players...

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

OK, sorry Sports desk Blah[:$]

I believe our current centre backs are better than 03/04 but reserves like Askou are "a million miles away". The fullbacks are as good. But we had a brilliant keeper back then and Ruddy''s not that good yet.

 

 

[/quote]I would agree with that Nutty, with our first choice back four we are very good defensively and as has been said Crofts adds to that. There is a huge problem when the four regulars are not available and that for me is our biggest problem. There has been so much talk on here about Holt and our strike force but that`s not the issue, we will score enough goals IMO, what we need is to ensure we have quality in depth at the back.  

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]That''s a very good reply Zipper, both Holt, and Francis before he became disinterested, were immense at breaking up play.  Maybe we need another ball winner in midfield to shut things down alongside Smith ?It seems that we are as likely to keep a clean sheet as not, which must be a good sign.  Rather worrying is that we''ve conceded 3 goals 3 times, is this a sign of switching off, maybe after we''ve scored goals, such as the Leicester game, or at set-pieces ?  And how do you fix that ?So far this season :6 clean sheets1 goal * 22 goals * 23 goals * 3[/quote]

Yeah maybe somebody like that Andrew Crofts or Simon Lappin fella..

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I think we are just as good, if not better.  Cut out the silly mistakes and we are onto a winner.  Also I think the amount of goals we have conceded from set pieces could suggest that the defence is not confident with Ruddy as they don''t know if he is coming or staying for the cross.  Time for Rudd?

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[quote user="Coelho"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

OK, sorry Sports desk Blah[:$]

I believe our current centre backs are better than 03/04 but reserves like Askou are "a million miles away". The fullbacks are as good. But we had a brilliant keeper back then and Ruddy''s not that good yet.

 

 

[/quote]
As I recall, though, other than a relatively inexperienced Jason Shackell we didn''t have a great deal of backup in 2003/4, we just got lucky with injuries. Wasn''t our backup right-back Keith Briggs? Just goes to show what you can achieve if you can keep your players fit. I think the year Reading walked the Championship title they only used about 16/17 outfield players...
[/quote]

I reckon you recall it right Coelho. I suppose if we had of got an injury in 03/04 Worthy would have brought in a loan player like Lambert did with Barnett. Now if our pairing was still Nelson and Ward, much as I like Nelly, I wouldn''t have said they were better than Mackay and Fleming.

 

It''s all very well having a strong squad but there will always be a first team. No club can afford to have 11 equally good reserves warming the bench just in case. So sometimes the loan market has to be used.

 

Boyo - If Ruddy is Lambert''s first choice then he should play him. Coelho''s point about a settled side is a valid one. Has Ruddy done anything to deserve to be dropped or would we be better allowing him to carry on developing an understanding with our back four.

 

 

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]In 2003 - 04 we won 28 games, drew 10, and lost 8.  We scored 79 and conceded 39.  In the 6 seasons since, only 5 teams have conceded 39 or fewer goals.  I think the lowest figure since then was 37 over the season.In 03 / 04, our back four was Drury, Mackay, Edworthy, and Fleming.To finish in the top 10 in the championship you usually need to score 60-80 goals over the course of the season.  To finish in the top 2, you usually need to concede 45 or less.  The play-off position teams often score as many, or more goals, but tend to concede 10-20 goals more than the teams who promote.I think we have proven that we have goals in our team so far this season.  20 goals from 14 games suggests over 60 goals over 46 matches.  18 goals conceded from 14 suggests mid-table is more likely than the top end though.With that in mind, how do we compare defensively against our promotion team of that season ?  Are Ward and Barnett as good as Mackay and Fleming ?  [/quote]

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"Yeah maybe somebody like that Andrew Crofts or Simon Lappin fella."

Yep, you got me there Matt - from what I''ve seen I had Crofts down more as a playmaker than a disruptor. Having said that, this thread could be a chance to prove that you can analyse the game a bit, maybe convince people to visit your site more often ?

Or you could just take pot-shots to score points against your fellow posters ? Your call.

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Without putting a downer on our so far really good season I have to say that 2003/2004 team were far better in all departments particularly more so defensively. Greeno is/was a better keeper than Ruddy at their respective stages. The back four in our promotion team was one (bar Eddy) which had gelled over several seasons. We were lucky that we never lost any of them for significant periods but then again I can barely remember both Flem and Malkay missing many games (340 games over 11 seasons and 220 games over 7 seasons speaks volumes), that perhaps cannot be said of our current team and perhaps that is where we fall down in forming those strong back two partnerships. Malkay was, as far as I have ever seen grace the field at Carrow Road one of the best players in the air, defensively and offensively and together with Flemings great man-marking ability we rarely conceded from set pieces.However as somebody earlier pointed out the key is Holt. Despite our many attempts to find other players for "that position" Holt was just immense. Ok he could barely pass, he was awful going forward (although I fondly remember a fantastic long strike against Burnley) but he had a superb reading of the game and literally never tired in games. He would run all game (thus the: "he''s here he''s there he''s every-....-where...") and even though we''ve had since his departure Safri, Etuhu, Russell, Smith and numerous others none of them have given our back four the protection that Gary used to give.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][

Boyo - If Ruddy is Lambert''s first choice then he should play him. Coelho''s point about a settled side is a valid one. Has Ruddy done anything to deserve to be dropped or would we be better allowing him to carry on developing an understanding with our back four.[/quote]

Ruddy has cost us a few goals this season as much as the defence has.  And some of these have been down to a lack of confidence between Ruddy and the defence.  I feel that if we had a goalkeeper who was willing to come and get any cross and take any player with him then the defence would be more confident when defending crosses from set pieces or open play and could get concentrate on their own job of attacking the ball to clear it rather than worrying whether Ruddy is coming or not.  I think the only way to stop this is a change of goal keeper because all goal keepers have parts of their game which they are not confident with (e.g. Forster''s kicking) and I believe Ruddy coming for crosses is his. 

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]Any chance of keeping this thread about football nutty ?  Or is cluck right and this place is just a big pink slanging match ?
[/quote]

Our defence was better in 04 in my opinion, not least becasue we only played 5 players in our back four all season, Flem , Malky, Juke Box and Edworthy seemed to play almost every game. Holt was outstanding up and down and protected Juke Box when Hucks went forward. And as an aside look at the goals Malky scored.

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the Lads are doing great a minute and it''s hard to compare teams, the better you are attacking the less the defence has to do, my opinion todays team would struggle to score against 04 team, not sure 2010 team would be able to cope with 04 team attacking threat and that was built on Gary Holt"s unbelievable work rate in front of a solid,tough, experienced back 4 and a England Keeper

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Absolutely Hucks, the current team have come a long way considering how much time they''ve been playing together.  As fans we are very lucky that we have seen what it takes to win this league week in, week out, albeit a few years ago now.  I like Lamberts attitude towards every month being a hard month - he doesn''t seem to mind who he is playing against, just goes out to beat whatever is in front of him.

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Good question.

Back then we played a 4-4-2 with Huckerby often upfront rather than on the left I seem to remember.

I think it is mainly experience that you could say that that team had over the team we have now. The back four had been playing together for several years or in the case of Edworthy, had been there before and was experienced enough to bed in straight away.

You look at the team we have now and its like that team but a few years younger in terms of games played together and in players like Ruddy, games played full stop.

I also think it''s to do with formation. I am not the world''s greatest fan of the diamond midfield. When it works it''s brilliant but when it doesn''t we get caught out time and time again. In terms of defensive ability the formation does reduce the amount of resistance we have to breaks and attacks down the wings. This can and does pull our defence out of shape at times when the full backs have to try and fill a hole on the wing which in turn pulls the other defenders into a sort of central three, which in turn can leave the other flank exposed.

But if you go by the old addage of the strength of a team is down its spine we defenitely do not match up with the team back then.

Iwan, Crouch, Svensson, Huckerby and McKenzie up front.

Holt, Francis, Russell, Mulryne in midfield.

Malky and Fleming at the back.

Green in goal.

Our ''spine'' isn''t that strong yet. Plus if you look at their ages, we had a nice mix of experience and more youthful players. Where-as now the oldest member of our ''spine'' is Holt at 29.

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I think next season, if we keep this same team and add a few more then we could have a very, very good team on our hands.  This season I believe we have the potential to make the play offs but that is no definate certainty and I highly doubt we will go up.  So after a season of this team playing together and with a few new players to improve it further I think at the back and all round the team we will have a very strong team that is hard to beat and good going forward.  And next season we could well be one of the teams to beat.  This does mean though that we have to make sure Lambert stays.

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To be honest if we can make the play-offs I think we will have as good a chance as any.

For whatever reason we always seem up for the ''top'' matches. Last season is a good example as well as playing without fear against QPR and Cardiff although perhaps against Cardiff a little bit more fear could have helped us?

There are not that many teams other than Cardiff or QPR that are as consistant or that have the money to really improve their team come January. Burnley tomorrow will be interesting.

But the biggest battle will be finishing in the play-offs because unless we can get some good consistant and reliable home form going we might have a problem with keeping in the top 6.

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