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Lets discuss Grant Holt

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[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Smudger"]It is about time that some fans got their heads out of the clouds and realised that there is no smoke without fire, instead of picking fights with their own fans because they have a differing opinion to them which may actually be closer to the the truth than their own personal view.[/quote]Smudger, two things...1. Did you get my email on running?2. Are you best placed to encourage people not to pick fights with fellow fans because of a difference of opinion?[/quote]Yes I got your email thanks Chopsy.  It was much appreciated and I intend to try one or two of the runs which you have suggested.  I have been a little busy recently, but I will get around to giving you an update on the running as soon as I can.Oh I mays as well give everybody a slight update here I suppose.  I done a 10 mile run on Monday in a time of 1 hour 21 mins.  I am doubting whether the time it gave me for the first 2.8 miles was correct though as it reckons that I done them in under 19 mins.  If it is true then I must have been on rocket fuel or something as it seems very quick to me.I have managed about 40 miles over the course of the last couple of weeks, but have been taking a couple of days rest, as I have been busy with other things and had a slight pain in my right foot and lower shin.  I hope to go for a run either later today or tomorrow though and hopefully pick it up to a day on and a day off again for a good week or two from there.As for the picking fights with fellow fans.  I have always said that I respect others opinions and those who stick up for what they believe in.  It all too often turns nasty amongst our own fans though, which is something that I don''t like.  We all support the same team and all have differences of opinion, but should be able to have a laugh about it and get along.  Hell, even I get things wrong occasionally! [:D]

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[quote user="Lambo"]

Holt is a hero!Why is it some fans feel the need to have a whipping boy?? Last season it was Russell Martin, I thought this season it was Ruddy but now some people are having pops at our captain. 

I really do dispair sometimes

[/quote]

Yes he is a hero and we all love him to bits but even his most ardent fan can see that he was knackered yesterday at about 60 mins and should have made way for Martin.

 

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[quote user="cityangel"][quote user="Beauseant"]

The emperor''s new clothes spring to mind. Yet again Holt was totally dominated in the air, and contributed very little on the deck, but still the excuses for him pour onto this forum.

Great work ethic, but not good enough to be the primary striker in a team aiming to reach the Premiership. Harsh, maybe, but true.

[/quote]

 

Guess because he scored so many goals last season and is ''''God'''' status that we''re not allowed to critisise him Beau .

Does anyone honestly think that he will score enough goals this season to help fire us is into the Premiership  ?

I still think we need a proven championship striker to give him competition.

[/quote]

 

And buy that championship striker with what?

Holt, Martin et al are all we have to work with, so Holt and the other strikers will have to pull their fingers out, also other team members will have to chip in with goals.  KTF

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There are some interesting arguments on both sides of the fence for Holt. I think he''s been great for us; led from the front; scored goals; inspired the team amongst others. He''s also been out of position, not tracked back, lost his marker. However, other players have been at fault too but this thread is not to discuss those.Moreover I don''t believe in giving someone a place in the team if they are not playing with 100% commitment, fitness or energy levels. Other players have been dropped to bench, to come on as a substitute, when they''ve had a game producing a less than usual good standard so IMO Holt is not above that happening to him. It is, however, Lambert''s decision.He is more than a goal scorer but NO-ONE has a divine right to be on the pitch unless they have performed well, to Lambert''s satisfaction. Perhaps Holt needs a proverbial kick up the bum by being on the bench with Jackson and Martin starting. Then, if it doesn''t work, he comes on. I would love to see other strike partnerships with the different players we have but for a Martin/Jackson duo up front, we need balls to the feet. Jackson has been brilliant these last few games even though I was concerned he might not cut it early on. I am really pleased to have been proved wrong. All our strikers are different style players. The important thing Lambert has to do is get the winning combination for each game; that includes looking at the opposition and deciding which will be better on the day. Jackson is quick but can get muscled out. Holt can do the muscling against defenders but neglects other areas of his game at times, as previously stated by several other posters.

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[quote user="cityangel"][quote user="Lambo"]

Holt is a hero!Why is it some fans feel the need to have a whipping boy?? Last season it was Russell Martin, I thought this season it was Ruddy but now some people are having pops at our captain. 

I really do dispair sometimes

[/quote]

Yes he is a hero and we all love him to bits but even his most ardent fan can see that he was knackered yesterday at about 60 mins and should have made way for Martin.

 

[/quote]

 

I don''t mind people saying he was tired. But doubting his ability and place in his team or questioning his performances this season when stats show he''s been our most effective forward whilst we''re in a position most fans daren''t dream off going into this season is a little harsh IMO.

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English League Championship - Player Discipline - 2010-11 - ESPN Soccernet

Interesting to note (taken off of ESPN) that the player with the most assists in our team and 3rd in the table (as of 23rd Oct) is Grant Holt with 5

3Grant HoltNorwich City5

Our top scorer is Simeon

Simeon JacksonNorwich City4

For cards  yellow being the first number, red the second, and the points being the last number

Elliott WardNorwich City505

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[quote user="Lambo"][quote user="cityangel"][quote user="Lambo"]

Holt is a hero!Why is it some fans feel the need to have a whipping boy?? Last season it was Russell Martin, I thought this season it was Ruddy but now some people are having pops at our captain. 

I really do dispair sometimes

[/quote]

Yes he is a hero and we all love him to bits but even his most ardent fan can see that he was knackered yesterday at about 60 mins and should have made way for Martin.

 

[/quote]

 

I don''t mind people saying he was tired. But doubting his ability and place in his team or questioning his performances this season when stats show he''s been our most effective forward whilst we''re in a position most fans daren''t dream off going into this season is a little harsh IMO.

[/quote]

 

I think fans just like to pick a player and moan about him constantly, even though he was godlike last season, he can''t do right this season.

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[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Clint"]Brendo, correct me if I''m wrong but didn''t Holt win an extremely important ball into the box yesterday, you know the one that left Jackson with an open goal? Just like he won an extremely important ball into the box Weds night, you know, the one that ended up in the back if the net. Had the defense not gone into self-destruct, we may have been celebrating another 3 points. Why does he need to win every ball into the box or even challenge for that matter. Holt is not as big as people think, he''s 6'' tall. Wheater (Boro) and Gardner (Palace) are both 6''5" and premier league quality centre backs but yet you expect Holt, who has played the last 2 seasons in leagues 1 and 2 respectively to be winning aerial challenges with them. You don''t want much do you? The final point I would make is that both times mentioned above, the ball was crossed in much lower and allowed Holt to use his strength and positional ability to get in front of the defender. Had these crosses been higher in the air, he probably wouldn''t have got to the ball. So perhaps we should play to our captains strengths and gave him some decent service (which has been non existent for much of the last 2 games) rather than just sticking aimless high balls into the box.[/quote]

The one which Holt would have tried to finish himself if he was fit enough and able enough to reach it and connect with it properly you mean?  It''s a good job that Jacko has some sharper reactions is all I can say!

What else did Grant Holt do in his 90 mins on the pitch yesterday, apart from argue with the ref and fall on the floor after backing in to defenders and making himself look stupid in front of a ref that was having none of it may I ask?
[/quote]

Have to agree Smudge, lets examine quickly what happened - ball to Holt 6 yards out with just the goal keeper to beat. Decides not to shoot but sees Jakson coming in from his side and behind him. Manages a near impossible perfect pass to Jackson. Jackson from same distance out decides not to pass back to Holt but shoots into the net. With my tin hat on I reckon Holt tried to score and totally mishit the ball to Jackson. Maybe I am doing Holt a major injustice here and if I am I apologise, but I do not see why Holt would not have shot. 

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I think the Holt moaners are few and far between. I think (and hope) most people realize we would not look as threatening up front if Holt was not there. I do think the amount of work he does off the ball goes unrecognized at times. I also feel that his team-mates are much happier with him on the pitch than off.

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Can''t be bothered to individually quote Brendo, Boyo or whoever but i think whilst some over-rate Holt, you lot seem to severely under-rate him.In this league we NEED a physical presence up front in my opinion. You can moan about the headers Holt wins but in my opinion he wins a fair share, the one''s he doesn''t win he''s still put pressureo n defenders which sometimes causes their headers to drop at one of our players feet.If Holty''s fully fit or not i don''t know - CA''s argument he should have come off on 60 minutes was fair - maybe he should have done. That doesn''t make him a bad player, however.And Smudger, if anything it''s those who complain about Holt who rely on what a player has done in the past. They''re the one''s who seem to be expecting so much from him - more than what''s fair in my opinion. He''s scored a few goals, set up a few - we''re only in October and i think we''ll only see him getting better as the season progresses.

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[quote user="chicken"]@Boyo'': If you are actually going to bother posting on any internet site please bother to read posts thoroughly and consider your replies or else freely make yourself look a bit silly. ''Seriously this thread really does highlight the lack of knowledge of the beautiful game some people have. Having played and now managing teams I see what Holt does. He is immense. All of the off the ball moments that some people wont see.'' Were my words. Where did I say ''most of'' anyone know ''nothing'' about the game? Where did I say I know more? Oh and you are quite entitled to your opinion, just the same as I am entitled to post my opinion which happens to contradict yours. However I see things greatly different to what you have posted. I also have seen the team struggle to cope without Holt on the pitch. I would also like to know who would ''muscle and bustle'' the opposition defences because other than Martin who is not as good, and not in form, who could do it? Oh yes and lets dip into that miracle pot of gold in January and buy a 20+ goal a season target man for less than £2million. Holt is doing just fine especially considering he played no part in pre season and is only just getting up to speed. You can criticise him for some performances this season but then the rest of the team have a lot to answer for in those as well. He is right now one of our two best strikers. End of.[/quote]

The way you said it Chicken was in some snobish kind of way and there was more to what you said than what you wrote, me and you both know that.

 

Martin may not be in form but neither is Holt so why the hell not drop Holt and bring Martin in?  And I already know your answer, you will say that Martin won''t bring the physical presence and no he won''t.  However if we change our style of play we won''t need a physical presence.  You always need a physical presence and Martin is strong enough to cope with the aquired amount you need.  The only time you need someone really strong in the Holt mould is when you pump it long like we have been.  Stop doing that and Martin will be fine if you give him a couple of games.

 

Holt right now is shockingly bad.  End of.

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[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Smudger"]It is about time that some fans got their heads out of the clouds and realised that there is no smoke without fire, instead of picking fights with their own fans because they have a differing opinion to them which may actually be closer to the the truth than their own personal view.[/quote]Smudger, two things...1. Did you get my email on running?2. Are you best placed to encourage people not to pick fights with fellow fans because of a difference of opinion?[/quote]Yes I got your email thanks Chopsy.  It was much appreciated and I intend to try one or two of the runs which you have suggested.  I have been a little busy recently, but I will get around to giving you an update on the running as soon as I can.Oh I mays as well give everybody a slight update here I suppose.  I done a 10 mile run on Monday in a time of 1 hour 21 mins.  I am doubting whether the time it gave me for the first 2.8 miles was correct though as it reckons that I done them in under 19 mins.  If it is true then I must have been on rocket fuel or something as it seems very quick to me.I have managed about 40 miles over the course of the last couple of weeks, but have been taking a couple of days rest, as I have been busy with other things and had a slight pain in my right foot and lower shin.  I hope to go for a run either later today or tomorrow though and hopefully pick it up to a day on and a day off again for a good week or two from there.As for the picking fights with fellow fans.  I have always said that I respect others opinions and those who stick up for what they believe in.  It all too often turns nasty amongst our own fans though, which is something that I don''t like.  We all support the same team and all have differences of opinion, but should be able to have a laugh about it and get along.  Hell, even I get things wrong occasionally! [:D] [/quote]OFF-TOPIC - RELATES TO HALF MARATHON.  Posting here because my email is screwy at the moment.Hi again,

Well done on your progress so far.  10 miles at 8:00-8:20 mile pace is

good, and will stand you in good stead for a sub-2 hour half marathon.

A few things to consider on race day and the weeks before:

a) don''t train up to 13 miles.  You''ll find the last mile on the day

through adrenaline and competitive spirit.  Keep strong - train up to

11-12 miles at the most and trust that you''ll find the extra on the

day.  Don''t tire yourself out beforehand if you are relatively new to

distance running.  Plus if you know you can run 13 miles already, it

wouldn''t be a challenge.

b) have your last long run two weeks before the half marathon (14th

November?).  The weekend before the half-marathon, run 6-7 miles

maximum.  Rest and recover.  You won''t lose any fitness for a week off,

but your body will start healing and putting tissue and muscles back in

order.

c) if you have foot and shin pain:

    1) check out your running shoes at Pilch, as suggested - you might have the wrong shoes (over/under pronation)

    2) RICE - Rest, Ice, Compres, Elevate.  Compression bandages are

useful, double them up (get size "C") and wear them overnight. 

Squeezing your ankle helps blood flow, which encourages healing.

    3) Only one long run a week!  Tick over during the week with 4-6

miles, and make your long run a once a week event.  Try starting at the

same, or similar, time as the race itself to get psychologically

prepared.

On the day of the race:

a) have a pint the night before, but not more than a pint (or wine, but I doubt you drink wine)

b) fuel up - porridge, brown toast, low GI foods.  Bananas.  Raisins.  Flapjacks.  Try this two-three weeks before the race and find something that works for you - don''t do anything new on the day.

c) a nervous poo goes a long way to settling your nerves

d) take a bin bag with you for the start line

e) run in your planned race clothes a week before to make sure you have

no "chafing issues" on race day.  Again, don''t do anything new on the

day - be confident that you''re equipped to cope.

f, g, h, i and j) the most important thing for any first-time racer: DO NOT GET DRAWN INTO THE STARTING MADNESS! 

People will start running at stupidly quick speeds because it''s a race

and they''re nervous, and they will royally screw themselves as a

result.  Watch those people overtake you during mile 1 and 2.  Remember

what they look like.  I bet you £100 that if you start sensibly, at your

planned 8-minute mile pace, you will overtake 90% of them between miles

8 and 12.  Allow yourself a smirk as you overtake them, but don''t start

any fights :-)

Good luck, I have friends running the half-marathon that day so I''ll look out for you.

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[quote user="hogesar"]Can''t be bothered to individually quote Brendo, Boyo or whoever but i think whilst some over-rate Holt, you lot seem to severely under-rate him.In this league we NEED a physical presence up front in my opinion. You can moan about the headers Holt wins but in my opinion he wins a fair share, the one''s he doesn''t win he''s still put pressureo n defenders which sometimes causes their headers to drop at one of our players feet.If Holty''s fully fit or not i don''t know - CA''s argument he should have come off on 60 minutes was fair - maybe he should have done. That doesn''t make him a bad player, however.And Smudger, if anything it''s those who complain about Holt who rely on what a player has done in the past. They''re the one''s who seem to be expecting so much from him - more than what''s fair in my opinion. He''s scored a few goals, set up a few - we''re only in October and i think we''ll only see him getting better as the season progresses.[/quote]I don''t have a problem with his goal ratio so far this season Hogs.  More this mythical work rate of his.  I have yet to see him put in a 90 minute shift as yet this season.  While I would have put this down to Holty trying to get back to full fitness a month or so ago, after much of the summer spent on the treatement table.  I don''t think this can be used as an excuse anymore.  Yet week in week out we see Simeon Jackson brought off the pitch while Holt stays on it.  How many games do you think that Holt has ran his socks off for 90 minutes this season?  Let''s be honest in this discussion shall we?If Lambert leaves him on in the belief that Holty is our best option of a goal in some matches then fair enough, but please let''s put this Holty work rate nonsense to bed onece and for all.  Anybody who was at Preston will tell you that it was Chris Martin that led the line for 70 plus minutes and ran his knackers off that afternoon, while Holty ran about 5 yards all afternoon and ended up getting the glory for notching the goal.  Similar to Holts performance gainst Palace on Tuesday night and again on Saturday - although on Saturday he was lacking the goal (although he did get an assist with his mis-hit shot that he was not fit enough to get on the end of).

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[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Smudger"]It is about time that some fans got their heads out of the clouds and realised that there is no smoke without fire, instead of picking fights with their own fans because they have a differing opinion to them which may actually be closer to the the truth than their own personal view.[/quote]Smudger, two things...1. Did you get my email on running?2. Are you best placed to encourage people not to pick fights with fellow fans because of a difference of opinion?[/quote]Yes I got your email thanks Chopsy.  It was much appreciated and I intend to try one or two of the runs which you have suggested.  I have been a little busy recently, but I will get around to giving you an update on the running as soon as I can.Oh I mays as well give everybody a slight update here I suppose.  I done a 10 mile run on Monday in a time of 1 hour 21 mins.  I am doubting whether the time it gave me for the first 2.8 miles was correct though as it reckons that I done them in under 19 mins.  If it is true then I must have been on rocket fuel or something as it seems very quick to me.I have managed about 40 miles over the course of the last couple of weeks, but have been taking a couple of days rest, as I have been busy with other things and had a slight pain in my right foot and lower shin.  I hope to go for a run either later today or tomorrow though and hopefully pick it up to a day on and a day off again for a good week or two from there.As for the picking fights with fellow fans.  I have always said that I respect others opinions and those who stick up for what they believe in.  It all too often turns nasty amongst our own fans though, which is something that I don''t like.  We all support the same team and all have differences of opinion, but should be able to have a laugh about it and get along.  Hell, even I get things wrong occasionally! [:D] [/quote]OFF-TOPIC - RELATES TO HALF MARATHON.  Posting here because my email is screwy at the moment.Hi again,

Well done on your progress so far.  10 miles at 8:00-8:20 mile pace is

good, and will stand you in good stead for a sub-2 hour half marathon.

A few things to consider on race day and the weeks before:

a) don''t train up to 13 miles.  You''ll find the last mile on the day

through adrenaline and competitive spirit.  Keep strong - train up to

11-12 miles at the most and trust that you''ll find the extra on the

day.  Don''t tire yourself out beforehand if you are relatively new to

distance running.  Plus if you know you can run 13 miles already, it

wouldn''t be a challenge.

b) have your last long run two weeks before the half marathon (14th

November?).  The weekend before the half-marathon, run 6-7 miles

maximum.  Rest and recover.  You won''t lose any fitness for a week off,

but your body will start healing and putting tissue and muscles back in

order.

c) if you have foot and shin pain:

    1) check out your running shoes at Pilch, as suggested - you might have the wrong shoes (over/under pronation)

    2) RICE - Rest, Ice, Compres, Elevate.  Compression bandages are

useful, double them up (get size "C") and wear them overnight. 

Squeezing your ankle helps blood flow, which encourages healing.

    3) Only one long run a week!  Tick over during the week with 4-6

miles, and make your long run a once a week event.  Try starting at the

same, or similar, time as the race itself to get psychologically

prepared.

On the day of the race:

a) have a pint the night before, but not more than a pint (or wine, but I doubt you drink wine)

b) fuel up - porridge, brown toast, low GI foods.  Bananas.  Raisins.  Flapjacks.  Try this two-three weeks before the race and find something that works for you - don''t do anything new on the day.

c) a nervous poo goes a long way to settling your nerves

d) take a bin bag with you for the start line

e) run in your planned race clothes a week before to make sure you have

no "chafing issues" on race day.  Again, don''t do anything new on the

day - be confident that you''re equipped to cope.

f, g, h, i and j) the most important thing for any first-time racer: DO NOT GET DRAWN INTO THE STARTING MADNESS! 

People will start running at stupidly quick speeds because it''s a race

and they''re nervous, and they will royally screw themselves as a

result.  Watch those people overtake you during mile 1 and 2.  Remember

what they look like.  I bet you £100 that if you start sensibly, at your

planned 8-minute mile pace, you will overtake 90% of them between miles

8 and 12.  Allow yourself a smirk as you overtake them, but don''t start

any fights :-)

Good luck, I have friends running the half-marathon that day so I''ll look out for you.[/quote]Thanks once again for the tips Chopsy.I will have to get a few morning runs in as I have been doing mine during the evenings.There is no way I will keep up 8 minute miles for the full way around, but as long as I can do it for a few miles and then keep the rest of them at or around 9 minute miles then I will be happy.  I guess being a diabetic myself how quick I run is largely going to go down to how I am feeling on the day?  When I done the 10 miles, with the first 2.8 miles in under 2.8 miles, I started with a slightly high blood sugar (around 15 mmol with a tiny injection (2 to 4 units only of quick acting insulin) to bring me down throughout the race).  This meant that I started off running on rocket fuel I think and I think that I have experienced this once or twice in the past.  While being slightly dangerous, I think that this may be able to raise your performance for the first few miles over this type of distance?  Obviously though the experts will not be pleased with me for starting the race at anything over 10 mmol blood sugar.  I will try to balance it and am slightly concerned about what to eat on the morning - so a trial run over the next couple of weeks with a similar start time like you suggest would be a very good idea.I will keep you updated as to my progress!

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@Boyo: Actually I wasn''t saying anything other than some of the opinions in this thread so far have been incredibly one dimentional and to be fair somewhat unrealistic.

Martin up until Jackson came into the team had not influenced games in the way that Jackson had, nor did he provide any real physical presence. And by that I don''t mean winning headers, I mean someone who battles, gets stuck in.

And then you try and suggest Holt is poor because playing him means we play hoof ball - how is that his fault? He is actually better with the ball at his feet than he is with it rocketed at his head or chest.

Goals and assists to his name including a goal and an assist in the last two games is not such a bad reccord.

And having looked at the replay of the goal I think he deliberately knocks it back. If you look at the direction he is looking in. It also makes perfect sense, the keeper is infront of him.

Then comes another argument - is he good enough to propell us into the premiership? Which in itself begs the question - do we think we are good enough to get into the premiership this season?

All of these things have a bearing because first off you look at the real contenders for the title this season - say Cardiff and QPR, and also consider teams like Leicester, Middlesburough and Burnley who at the begining of the season you would have expected to be up there.

Right now if we can keep this sort of momentum we can indeed achieve a play-off spot. The problem is if we don''t have much money and the aim of the club is to try and get shot of debt ASAP then I would say Lambert will have to make a real gamble in the striking department according to your views.

He is not going to be able to get a premiership capable player who has still got seasons in them for less than £1.5million in the current climate.

And as I have said on other threads, we lack strength in depth as shown by the number of injuries stacking up leaving us having to rely on players like Gill and Tudor-Jones and yet you want to talk about replacing Holt.

I think at times this season some of the new players have struggled to come to terms with their positions in a diamond midfield. And as much success as it has given us it has also been our weakness in games where we haven''t done so well.

Simply put I don''t see us challenging for the title this season - a play off spot yes. As such I think you will find Holt is good enough.

Right now the team as a whole is playing with what I would say looks like a little bit of lack of belief and as Lambert has said ''freshness''. What he did yesterday was superb, it rested some hard working players and kept the others who got a chance match sharp and full of drive to keep their place.

But the final third of the pitch is where we have been lacking, but more in creating chances than finishing them, if you were telling me Holt was missing bucket loads of sitters, or not quick enough to get on the end of good balls it would be a different matter, but even yesterday we saw balls into the box dry up in the 2nd half when we were unable to get the ball to Macca.

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Okay Chicken, you seem to have gone off on a slight tangent and you have baffled me!  One minute we are talking about should Holt be dropped or not, then should we buy an expensive striker and then about are we good enough to get promoted.

So all I''m going to say is, Grant Holt so far has been useless IMO, yes he has scored a couple and created a couple but so far he has been useless.  If we had brought Grant Holt this summer then people would be absoultely slating him and having a good old moan at Lambert complaining about him buying him.  People need to stop living in the past and yes Grant Holt scored 30 goals last season but that was League 1 and the Championship is a whole different ball game as Grant Holt himself has proved so far.  Korey Smith had one bad game IMO and got dropped, Grant Holt has been pretty damn poor all season and he hasn''t been dropped.  Grant Holt deserves to be dropped, end of story.

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Sorry but I baffled you - the person who one minute says he is useless and then the next that he is just out of form and then says he is worse than someone else who, if goals and assists are anything to go by, has less form than him?!!!!

Holt hasn''t been poor all season - he hasn''t played all season. Infact he didn''t play pre-season either. And whilst I would agree that as others have said maybe he still lacks a bit of fitness I don''t think he has been playing half as bad as what you have depicted.

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[quote user="WeAreYellows49"][quote user="cityangel"][quote user="Beauseant"]

The emperor''s new clothes spring to mind. Yet again Holt was totally dominated in the air, and contributed very little on the deck, but still the excuses for him pour onto this forum.

Great work ethic, but not good enough to be the primary striker in a team aiming to reach the Premiership. Harsh, maybe, but true.

[/quote]

 

Guess because he scored so many goals last season and is ''''God'''' status that we''re not allowed to critisise him Beau .

Does anyone honestly think that he will score enough goals this season to help fire us is into the Premiership  ?

I still think we need a proven championship striker to give him competition.

[/quote]

 

And buy that championship striker with what?

Holt, Martin et al are all we have to work with, so Holt and the other strikers will have to pull their fingers out, also other team members will have to chip in with goals.  KTF

[/quote]

This brings some reality to the thread WAY. Firstly Grant Holt is not the only member of our first team who''s probably not good enough to be in a team aiming to reach the Premiership. But last season''s squad was an improvement on the one that got relegated and this season''s is an improvement on that one. But, as Glen Roeder really found out to his cost, managers inherit the players who are contracted by their predecessors. we were tied to Cureton as our major striker for three seasons thanks to Peter Grant and now Holt is on a long contract at the club. Lambert is getting there when he can. When Doc''s contract ran out he was able to bring in Ward. But he still had to bring a centre back in on loan this season despite having four of our own. This is because he has players under contract that he doesn''t really want.

 

But there''s no reason why this team can''t be there or thereabouts come May. Last season Blackpool had quite a few players who were probably not good enough to be in a team aiming to reach the Premiership but they still got there. And we are still 4th after 13 games. In fact this team has spent more weeks in the top 6 than all the rest put together since we were relegated. I fact the team we had in 2005 never got near the top six and yet with Green, Etuhu, Safri, Huckerby and Ashton amongst others we were stacked with players good enough to be in a team aiming for the Premiership.

 

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Spot on Nutty. It is threads like these that are generally having the effect on me not to bother coming on here anymore.

To say that a player is rubbish even though they are on track to reach the sort of goal totals that previous ''legendary'' players have totaled baffles me.

He may well be going through a rough patch but to slag and slate him of and not just to underate him but not rate him at all?!!! To me it not only insults him, but the manager, the coaching staff and the other players.

Just one thing Nutty - Lambert tried to sign Holt for Colchester, and of the four centre backs we have permanently on our books he signed two. In theory I would guess that means he sees those two as his first choice and so far only injury has scuppered that.

I dont think Lambert is that blinkered though to be honest. Holt obviously brings more to the table which is why he is captain. The team currently is top 6 and if we are able to be tighter defensively - our biggest downfall in recent games, not our lack of goals, then we should do fine.

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The simple fact of the matter is that Holt is one of those players you miss when he isn''t starting, even in poor form (which he isn''t, he is IMO now starting to improve) but I do agree that it is unfair we keep hauling Simeon off for Chrissy when he has been creating countless chances the last 70 minutes. Having said that I would like to see Oli get more game time.

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[quote user="chicken"]Spot on Nutty. It is threads like these that are generally having the effect on me not to bother coming on here anymore. To say that a player is rubbish even though they are on track to reach the sort of goal totals that previous ''legendary'' players have totaled baffles me. He may well be going through a rough patch but to slag and slate him of and not just to underate him but not rate him at all?!!! To me it not only insults him, but the manager, the coaching staff and the other players. Just one thing Nutty - Lambert tried to sign Holt for Colchester, and of the four centre backs we have permanently on our books he signed two. In theory I would guess that means he sees those two as his first choice and so far only injury has scuppered that. I dont think Lambert is that blinkered though to be honest. Holt obviously brings more to the table which is why he is captain. The team currently is top 6 and if we are able to be tighter defensively - our biggest downfall in recent games, not our lack of goals, then we should do fine.[/quote]

I`m sure alot of people are reading this thread and agreeing with you chicken but frankly your opponents opinions are too stupid to even bother with.  It is impossible for a player to be "useless", yet have great stats- end of story.  Wonder how many people would honestly swap Holt for the vastly more expensive Boyd on Saturday?!  Further to that i wonder how many Boro fans would absolutely love some technically limited players like Holt,Lappin and R.Martin who would run through a brick wall for the club, rather than their bunch of overpaid poseurs?  We are in a wonderful position compared to a couple of years ago- some people need to take a step back and appreciate just what we`ve got.

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Okay Chicken, you seem to have gone off on a slight tangent and you have baffled me!  One minute we are talking about should Holt be dropped or not, then should we buy an expensive striker and then about are we good enough to get promoted.

So all I''m going to say is, Grant Holt so far has been useless IMO, yes he has scored a couple and created a couple but so far he has been useless.  If we had brought Grant Holt this summer then people would be absoultely slating him and having a good old moan at Lambert complaining about him buying him.  People need to stop living in the past and yes Grant Holt scored 30 goals last season but that was League 1 and the Championship is a whole different ball game as Grant Holt himself has proved so far.  Korey Smith had one bad game IMO and got dropped, Grant Holt has been pretty damn poor all season and he hasn''t been dropped.  Grant Holt deserves to be dropped, end of story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You sound like you fit into the "what you know about football can be written on a postcard" category!

 

Without Holt up front we''d be close if not in the bottom 4 cause we''d have no presence upfront whatsoever!

 

Chris Martin is not a good targetman at this level so if we lost Holt for a spell of games I think we''d need to sign a replacement!

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I really don''t understand all the negativity about Holty this season. Ok he''s not banging them in for fun like he did last season and yes we all know he goes wide a bit too much but we are playing in a higher division and he is playing against better defenders so he was never going to be able to bully them all in the way he did last season. He''s never actually been that great at winning flick ons in the air but if its played into his chest or feet then the ball usually sticks and ends up with one of our wide men.

Yes he''s not been on fire but event hough he''s not been fully fit until recently he is  scoring enough goals to merit his place in the team, his hold up play has been decent enough and for me the most important thing is that he remains a real pain in the backside for defenders to play against. Even if he doesn''t score they know they have been in game after 90 minutes against Holty and you can''t underestimate the importance of his role in wearing down the opposition centre halves. If he was not playing then i think you would really notice a difference.

 

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This thread is unbelievable! Here we are lying 4th in the table and some of you are slating our top scorer, captain and player with the most assists. He has admitted himself he has not been at his best, but over the last few weeks(since Preston away)  he has been getting there. Like has been mentioned, he brings alot more to the table than just goals, his influence on the team as captain is vital in itself. Would the people slating Holt prefer it if we were bottom but Holt was top scorer in the league?The same people probably have a right go at Roeder for bringing in all his loans are probably now calling for a loan player to be brought in to replace Holt.  Some of you need to wake up!

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]

I really don''t understand all the negativity about Holty this season. Ok he''s not banging them in for fun like he did last season and yes we all know he goes wide a bit too much but we are playing in a higher division and he is playing against better defenders so he was never going to be able to bully them all in the way he did last season. He''s never actually been that great at winning flick ons in the air but if its played into his chest or feet then the ball usually sticks and ends up with one of our wide men.

Yes he''s not been on fire but event hough he''s not been fully fit until recently he is  scoring enough goals to merit his place in the team, his hold up play has been decent enough and for me the most important thing is that he remains a real pain in the backside for defenders to play against. Even if he doesn''t score they know they have been in game after 90 minutes against Holty and you can''t underestimate the importance of his role in wearing down the opposition centre halves. If he was not playing then i think you would really notice a difference.

 

[/quote]Look at it again Jim.You and others would be absolutely slating Chris Martin or Korey Smith after just one or two bad performances and saying it is time that the youngsters took a rest etc.Whatever you say an ever growing number of fans are starting to realise that it is Holt that is not doing his fair share of the running and ball winning upfront for us this season.  Maybe you could explain to us with no brains why Simeon Jackson gets dragged off every single match to make way for Holt, regardless of whether Jackson has had the better game out of the two of them and if Jacko has got the goals for us also?Maybe you could explain why Chris Martin, who alongside Crofts was man of the match at Preston for me and many others, was pulled off when Holt was left on.  Holt could hardly walk that day, let alone run, so maybe it was a case of Chris Martin had run himself in to the ground after 75 mins doing all of the hardwork for his lazy/unfit strike partner who took all of the glory from him?Whatever you say there is far more to it than saying Holty has scored a few this season, despite being possibly unfit for a large number of games he has played in.  I''m not saying that Holty should not be starting at the moment, but it is him who should be making way for Chris Martin to come on after 60+ mins in my opinion, not Simeon.  I would much rather have Simeon on the pitch with pace to burn over the last 20 to 30 mins than a tired looking Holt and I would much rather see Martin alongside him for much of the last half hour of games also.  Let''s not forget how good a young prospect Martin and Simeon are.  They deserve more time on the pitch alongside eachother in my opinion.  I for one do not believe that Grant Holt is light years ahead of either Jackson or Martin, so why is his place in the team guaranteed for 90 mins every match?  Maybe it is because he feels so safe of his place that he is not playing greatly in numerous games this season?

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[quote user="Boyo"]

Okay Chicken, you seem to have gone off on a slight tangent and you have baffled me!  One minute we are talking about should Holt be dropped or not, then should we buy an expensive striker and then about are we good enough to get promoted.

So all I''m going to say is, Grant Holt so far has been useless IMO, yes he has scored a couple and created a couple but so far he has been useless.  If we had brought Grant Holt this summer then people would be absoultely slating him and having a good old moan at Lambert complaining about him buying him.  People need to stop living in the past and yes Grant Holt scored 30 goals last season but that was League 1 and the Championship is a whole different ball game as Grant Holt himself has proved so far.  Korey Smith had one bad game IMO and got dropped, Grant Holt has been pretty damn poor all season and he hasn''t been dropped.  Grant Holt deserves to be dropped, end of story.

[/quote]I admire what you have been saying on this thread Boyo and for me it is spot on.  But I think it is time to let some people learn the hard way that their over-protection of Grant Holt is not doing the team any favours?Unfortunately, the majority of fans will not wake up to certain frailties we have in our side until it is too late.  How many of our fans have you ever known to be pro-active about things?  For having such a stance you are lucky that you have not been thrown out of the ground and labelled a thug and a supporter of some Northern team.This kind of sticking up for certain individuals in our squad who underperform is exactly the kind of mentality that got us relegated a couple of seasons ago in my eyes.  You look to make your team as strong as you can for the duration of the 90 mins every week and then look to address any perceived weaknesses during the transfer window.I think Holty has scored enough goals this season considering his summer injury concerns, but all this stuff about his work rate is a complete myth.  I haven''t seen him run since about March.  Maybe he is a "March Hare" and March is only just around the corner again???

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[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Jim Smith"]

I really don''t understand all the negativity about Holty this season. Ok he''s not banging them in for fun like he did last season and yes we all know he goes wide a bit too much but we are playing in a higher division and he is playing against better defenders so he was never going to be able to bully them all in the way he did last season. He''s never actually been that great at winning flick ons in the air but if its played into his chest or feet then the ball usually sticks and ends up with one of our wide men.

Yes he''s not been on fire but event hough he''s not been fully fit until recently he is  scoring enough goals to merit his place in the team, his hold up play has been decent enough and for me the most important thing is that he remains a real pain in the backside for defenders to play against. Even if he doesn''t score they know they have been in game after 90 minutes against Holty and you can''t underestimate the importance of his role in wearing down the opposition centre halves. If he was not playing then i think you would really notice a difference.

 

[/quote]

Look at it again Jim.

You and others would be absolutely slating Chris Martin or Korey Smith after just one or two bad performances and saying it is time that the youngsters took a rest etc.

Whatever you say an ever growing number of fans are starting to realise that it is Holt that is not doing his fair share of the running and ball winning upfront for us this season.  Maybe you could explain to us with no brains why Simeon Jackson gets dragged off every single match to make way for Holt, regardless of whether Jackson has had the better game out of the two of them and if Jacko has got the goals for us also?

Maybe you could explain why Chris Martin, who alongside Crofts was man of the match at Preston for me and many others, was pulled off when Holt was left on.  Holt could hardly walk that day, let alone run, so maybe it was a case of Chris Martin had run himself in to the ground after 75 mins doing all of the hardwork for his lazy/unfit strike partner who took all of the glory from him?

Whatever you say there is far more to it than saying Holty has scored a few this season, despite being possibly unfit for a large number of games he has played in.  I''m not saying that Holty should not be starting at the moment, but it is him who should be making way for Chris Martin to come on after 60+ mins in my opinion, not Simeon.  I would much rather have Simeon on the pitch with pace to burn over the last 20 to 30 mins than a tired looking Holt and I would much rather see Martin alongside him for much of the last half hour of games also.  Let''s not forget how good a young prospect Martin and Simeon are.  They deserve more time on the pitch alongside eachother in my opinion.  I for one do not believe that Grant Holt is light years ahead of either Jackson or Martin, so why is his place in the team guaranteed for 90 mins every match?  Maybe it is because he feels so safe of his place that he is not playing greatly in numerous games this season?
[/quote]

The reason Jackson gets taken off for Martin is because Lambert likes to play with a targetman or a big striker and the only one we have is Holt. Martin and Jackson are both strikers who prefer to play off the big man. As such, they are basically competing for one place. Martin is not a hold up man therefore he is not seen as a Holt replacement.

That, i believe, is the reason. Not saying i agree with it every time and I don''t agree with everything Lambert does but at least you can see a sense of reason behind the decisions he makes. For example, there are times when I think in the latter stages of games it would be good to leave Jackson on to enable us to use his extra pace and running on the break. I also don''t agree with Lambert taking Hoolahan off every week, particularly against Palace where we needed a goal. I also didn''t agree with dropping Hoolahan on Saturday as I think he is our best player and we should always find aplace for him in the team but I can at least see why Lambert did it given the formation he wanted to play and the fact he presumably wanted to play Jackson as he has been in decent form.

I did, however, agree with dropping Korey Smith. Whilst Holt may not have been at his best he does still remain an influential figure in games week in, week out. Korey had not been in the game for the last few weeks and needed a rest.

 

 

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[quote]Maybe you could explain to us with no brains why Simeon Jackson gets

dragged off every single match to make way for Holt, regardless of

whether Jackson has had the better game out of the two of them and if

Jacko has got the goals for us also?[/quote]Forwards who beat players with pace are less likely to last 90 minutes, forwards who can hold the ball up and bring other players into the game are more likely to last 90 minutes.  I''m sure Usain Bolt would make an excellent forward for maybe 30 minutes a game ?

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[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Jim Smith"]

I really don''t understand all the negativity about Holty this season. Ok he''s not banging them in for fun like he did last season and yes we all know he goes wide a bit too much but we are playing in a higher division and he is playing against better defenders so he was never going to be able to bully them all in the way he did last season. He''s never actually been that great at winning flick ons in the air but if its played into his chest or feet then the ball usually sticks and ends up with one of our wide men.

Yes he''s not been on fire but event hough he''s not been fully fit until recently he is  scoring enough goals to merit his place in the team, his hold up play has been decent enough and for me the most important thing is that he remains a real pain in the backside for defenders to play against. Even if he doesn''t score they know they have been in game after 90 minutes against Holty and you can''t underestimate the importance of his role in wearing down the opposition centre halves. If he was not playing then i think you would really notice a difference.

 

[/quote]Look at it again Jim.You and others would be absolutely slating Chris Martin or Korey Smith after just one or two bad performances and saying it is time that the youngsters took a rest etc.Whatever you say an ever growing number of fans are starting to realise that it is Holt that is not doing his fair share of the running and ball winning upfront for us this season.  Maybe you could explain to us with no brains why Simeon Jackson gets dragged off every single match to make way for Holt, regardless of whether Jackson has had the better game out of the two of them and if Jacko has got the goals for us also?Maybe you could explain why Chris Martin, who alongside Crofts was man of the match at Preston for me and many others, was pulled off when Holt was left on.  Holt could hardly walk that day, let alone run, so maybe it was a case of Chris Martin had run himself in to the ground after 75 mins doing all of the hardwork for his lazy/unfit strike partner who took all of the glory from him?Whatever you say there is far more to it than saying Holty has scored a few this season, despite being possibly unfit for a large number of games he has played in.  I''m not saying that Holty should not be starting at the moment, but it is him who should be making way for Chris Martin to come on after 60+ mins in my opinion, not Simeon.  I would much rather have Simeon on the pitch with pace to burn over the last 20 to 30 mins than a tired looking Holt and I would much rather see Martin alongside him for much of the last half hour of games also.  Let''s not forget how good a young prospect Martin and Simeon are.  They deserve more time on the pitch alongside eachother in my opinion.  I for one do not believe that Grant Holt is light years ahead of either Jackson or Martin, so why is his place in the team guaranteed for 90 mins every match?  Maybe it is because he feels so safe of his place that he is not playing greatly in numerous games this season?[/quote]

The reason Jackson gets taken off for Martin is because Lambert likes to play with a targetman or a big striker and the only one we have is Holt. Martin and Jackson are both strikers who prefer to play off the big man. As such, they are basically competing for one place. Martin is not a hold up man therefore he is not seen as a Holt replacement.

That, i believe, is the reason. Not saying i agree with it every time and I don''t agree with everything Lambert does but at least you can see a sense of reason behind the decisions he makes. For example, there are times when I think in the latter stages of games it would be good to leave Jackson on to enable us to use his extra pace and running on the break. I also don''t agree with Lambert taking Hoolahan off every week, particularly against Palace where we needed a goal. I also didn''t agree with dropping Hoolahan on Saturday as I think he is our best player and we should always find aplace for him in the team but I can at least see why Lambert did it given the formation he wanted to play and the fact he presumably wanted to play Jackson as he has been in decent form.

I did, however, agree with dropping Korey Smith. Whilst Holt may not have been at his best he does still remain an influential figure in games week in, week out. Korey had not been in the game for the last few weeks and needed a rest.

 

 

[/quote]Much better post and a pretty fair analysis of how I also believe Lambert sees things Jim.  The best post so far on this thread from somebody fighting Holty''s corner for me... [Y]I agree that you need a target man in the majority of games in this division.  But I don''t believe that needs to be the case for 90 mins every single game.  I think that Chris Martin, or even Oli Johnson over 20 mins or so could offer more alongside Simeon for the last 20-25 mins of games than perhaps Holty can in some games (especially when Holty is up against a big defender like Wheater or McCarthy like he has been during the last two home games).  Different things will hurt different teams - especially in the latter stages of matches.  We have 3 decent strikers at this level, plus another who can possibly offer a touch of something totally unexpected now and again.  I don''t think that we have used what we have and maximised it to it''s full potential yet this season.  For me that needs to come from the bench, as all of our strikers have different things to offer.  Some will be marked out of the game by some defenders, while others will be marked out of the game by other defenders.  They can all score goals though and for me a little more sense should be being used by our coaching staff at the moment to ensure that each of our strikers is really fighting for their place each week.  I don''t think we have one striker from our main three strikers who is streets above the others and who deserves to stay on the pitch for 90 mins every week.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]Maybe you could explain to us with no brains why Simeon Jackson gets dragged off every single match to make way for Holt, regardless of whether Jackson has had the better game out of the two of them and if Jacko has got the goals for us also?[/quote]

Forwards who beat players with pace are less likely to last 90 minutes, forwards who can hold the ball up and bring other players into the game are more likely to last 90 minutes.  I''m sure Usain Bolt would make an excellent forward for maybe 30 minutes a game ?
[/quote]

Also, a target man is far more use from a defensive point of view when we are trying to protect a lead- both because the ball will stick more up front and in terms of defending from set-pieces.  I`m afraid Jackson`s hold-up play was poor saturday, as was Martin`s when he came on.  Jackson for Martin was 100% the right sub to make, no question.

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