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Lets discuss Grant Holt

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[quote user="ron obvious"]Grant''s irreplaceable, at least at anything like the money. Apart from his other qualities, he can be surprisingly agile for a big bloke. The way he got himself some space for that toe-poke early on was superb. A pound shop Dean Ashton!

[/quote]Lol!

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Ha ha! I think it''s unfair to call him a pound shop Dean Ashton! Although I know you''re kiddin of course.[:)]Everything I''ve ever bought from a quid shop has broken pretty quickly you see. Grant Holt is built tough!I can''t really understand this thread. We''ve had Russell Martin bashing, Nelson berating (which I admit I was in agreement with at the start of last season) and now our player of the year and captain is getting criticised. For the record, I think he''s been great for us this season and most definitely needs to start. We don''t have any other strikers in the same mould.We''re not football managers, Lambert is and we''re sitting third in the table. I think that says it all.

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I always buy my reading glasses from pound shop. They''re just as good as ones I''ve had for a tenner.Nowt wrong wit'' pound shop!

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If there was ever a thread that proved people who like watching the game know pretty much f*ck all about football this has to be it.Holt is doing what is required of him by Lambert within the current formation and it''s proving effective, yes! He''s playing exactly the same role as he did last season, but the slower pace and poorer defensive qualities of the Third Division allowed him more opportunities to also get in the box and score goals, yes!It frustrates the hell out of me that Holt isn''t getting on the end of crosses often enough, but whilst we''re playing the diamond this will mostly be the case.

Yes!

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[quote user="BobbyLo"]
I can''t really understand this thread. We''ve had Russell Martin bashing, Nelson berating (which I admit I was in agreement with at the start of last season) and now our player of the year and captain is getting criticised. [/quote]

The thread was asking for opinions, we know we love him, we understand his work rate, we know he was great for us last season, we know he worked hard yesterday and got us a penalty.

What we don''t know ( hence the thread) is people''s opinion as to whether he will be  a 20 goal a season striker in the championship and do we need cover for him if he puts in a few poor performances or maybe gets injured for a few weeks ?

We''ve got a great back line now, we have plenty of strength in midfield to create those chances , are you all confident we have the strike power at the club to put those chances away every game?

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CA, I think that the main reason for Holt being ''on the wing'' a fair amount is because of the formation we play. With the ''diamond'' our midfield is quite narrow; if our full backs can''t get forward (for example, if the opposition is playing with out-and-out attacking wingers), then the two forwards have to get on to the end of anything that is played into the advanced wing positions. It''s not just Holt - Jackson or Chris Martin also do this (take a look next game).   

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I guarantee Holt will score against Palace. It wouldn''t surprise me if he got a couple either. Anyone who''s seen the last 3 games should have witnessed Holt move up a level as his fitness returned. It is true that for the last 15 minutes against Bristol City he was knackered, but that''s only because he''d been fantastic the previous 75 to help get us 3-0 up!

He''s about to hit top form, believe me.

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[quote user="Shyster"]Holt is doing what is required of him by Lambert within the current formation and it''s proving effective, yes! [/quote]I am really surprised that in the whole thread only one person has mentioned the team.There is another thread extolling the virtues of the away and the lack of goals conceded.  That comes at a price.  The side is playing 10 yds deeper to achieve a compact difficult to beat unit.  The most noticeable place you see the difference in is the ST''s.  Holt gets singled out because of his prevoius successes and the reason he looks knackered near the end of the games is that he is working opposition defences far harder than he has had to do in the past.We are having a good run, its always hard in your early days in a higher division so I am currently happy.If I have a fear it is that Lambert is the son of MON and we will always be a hard workman like side ( much as Vanilla ( and I think Leicester were) and LPool will be !!!) and I would like to see more expression in the side once initial objectives ( staying in the division) have been met 

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[quote user="LinkNR9"]CA, I think that the main reason for Holt being ''on the wing'' a fair amount is because of the formation we play. With the ''diamond'' our midfield is quite narrow; if our full backs can''t get forward (for example, if the opposition is playing with out-and-out attacking wingers), then the two forwards have to get on to the end of anything that is played into the advanced wing positions. It''s not just Holt - Jackson or Chris Martin also do this (take a look next game).   [/quote]

I thank you for your comments Links, I will watch carefully on Tuesday night and return with my observations

I love Holt as much as everyone else and it honestly wasn''t mean to be a knocking thread.

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Mister Chops has it on the head.

Holt brings a massive amount to the team out on the pitch before he even touches the ball. Lambert knows it and that is the reason he plays him as much as he does, even if he''s off colour.

It is so important to have a leader on the field who leads by example and drives the team forward. We lacked that from the moment Malky left and it''s no coincidence that some of our darkest days on the pitch coincided with that time.

Clearly we need him to perform well too if we''re to be successful but his mere presence on the pitch is more important than some people realise, and as someone has pointed out, it''s very hard to replace.

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I simply love watching the guy play whether on or off the ball. Pure pure entertainment.

El Torro he certainly is

Unless we sign a proper replacement for him, he must be the main man. As others have said, there''s more to Holty than just a goalscorer and moving wide is partly due to the formation we play

Don''t even think of Chris Martin as a replacement. There is no doubt that Martin has the potential but although I know it is not a popular view on this board he does have a big question mark against his overall attitude.

Who was it who once said ''In Lambo we trust" !!

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[quote user="CanaryJames"]I guarantee Holt will score against Palace. It wouldn''t surprise me if he got a couple either. Anyone who''s seen the last 3 games should have witnessed Holt move up a level as his fitness returned. It is true that for the last 15 minutes against Bristol City he was knackered, but that''s only because he''d been fantastic the previous 75 to help get us 3-0 up! He''s about to hit top form, believe me.[/quote]

Holt certainly looked like he had lost a few pounds yesterday and I wouldn''t bet against all of the hard work that he has been putting in and faith by Lambert paying off soon.

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Holty is more than just a goalscorer, he is ournteam captain and shows his inspiration on the pitch. His work rate is fantastic and I believe we would be found out up front if he was out of the side. That''s nothing against Jackson, but he needs a big striker up with him to draw defenders away and win the flick-ons.

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All this ''Holt can''t cut it at Championship level'' is proving to be a bit boring (not having a go at CA, by the way).

He isn''t a proven champs striker but I don''t recall Martin or Jackson banging them in prevsiously at this level either. He needs to be playing in the champs regularly before becoming a proven (or poor) striker at this level and as far as I''m aware (apart from a few games at Forest, on the wing?) he''s not had this opportunity. So why has he got this tag of not be able to cut it at this level?

Lets judge him after more than 11 games at this level, particularly as he missed most of pre-season.

Also, not having a go at Martin as I think he''s an excellent player but Holt has played a part in significantly more goals than Martin this season. I seem to recall ''the best finisher at the club'' fluffing a 1 on 1 vs Hull at 0-0 with about 15 mins to go. If he scores, we win, we''d have 3 more points on the board!

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Holt led the line well yesterday and gave the QPR defence (who are the best in this Division by the way!) a tough game!

 

Hes the best we''ve got up front. Its not all about goals and anyway how may clear cut chances did he get yesterday? - none!

 

I do despair at people questioning Grant Holt inclusion in the team. See how good we''d be with  Martin as our targetman!   

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[quote user="LinkNR9"]CA, I think that the main reason for Holt being ''on the wing'' a fair amount is because of the formation we play. With the ''diamond'' our midfield is quite narrow; if our full backs can''t get forward (for example, if the opposition is playing with out-and-out attacking wingers), then the two forwards have to get on to the end of anything that is played into the advanced wing positions. It''s not just Holt - Jackson or Chris Martin also do this (take a look next game).   [/quote]

At last, someone gets it.  Germany didn`t do so bad at the world cup and Ozil was constantly pulling out wide.  Ask yourself which you`d prefer to see- Holt sticking in the middle with an enormous centre-half standing on his toes waiting for a long ball to be pumped up to him, which to be frank he often loses against a bigger opponent.....or Holt pulling wide where there is far more space, encouraging a long pass into his feet and where his opponent is normally physically smaller/weaker than him?  You can`t have an attack if you don`t have possession in attacking areas, and this system is a very cunning ruse to gain that possession more often than not.

Now consider that for the first time in years we are going away and launching attack after attack, winning corners and free-kicks galore and yet still not conceeding many..... Anyone would be forgiven for thinking that the system was working an absolute treat [8-)].

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[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

Its not all about goals and anyway how may clear cut chances did he get yesterday? - none![/quote]

But goals win games , winning games gets you points and lots of points keeps you near the top of the table.

As for no clear cut chances I thought that he had one late in the 2nd half after Jackson & Korey put him clear and he shot over the top ???

 

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Er no!

 

I was behind it and it was from a very tight angle so it certainly wasn''t clear cut!

 

Yes goals win games EG, Preston away 1-0 and Scunthorpe away 1-0 both goals scored by no other than Grant Holt!

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"and do we need cover for him if he puts in a few poor performances or maybe gets injured for a few weeks ?"

NO! What you are infering is absolute nonsense. if he is injured then I''m sure Lambert has a number of possibles lined up. Until then it would be absurd to bring someone in on a loan to sit on the bemch in case either of you tow secnarios happened.

The idea you have posted earlier about a proven championship striker is also absurd. Firstly it jas to be certain that they would fit into the teams style of play, second why if they are that proven and therefore suitable would they be available and then willing to sit on the bench just in case of lack of injury or form

Lose Ruddy long term and I would rather have the money to bring in a decent keeper rather than have that money sat on the bench.

" But goals win games , winning games gets you points and lots of points keeps you near the top of the table.

Not necessarily true. What wins games is scoring MORE goals than the opposition rather than simply scoring goals - as the two against Watford proved. As to being "near the top of the table" I think we are despite your constant carping about Holt.

Perhaps the tactics being employed are a touch more complicated than Roy of the Rovers. Perhaps Holt is playing as a team player rather than as some ''lone gunslinger'' who has no other role other than to stand around the penalty box knocking in the goals that others have set up.

And as to whether this works then check the wondrous goals tallies of other clubs where they are burdened down with proven championship scorers. Had we have scored the penalty yesterday there would have been only THREE other clubs with more goals than us - of those one (Cardiff) would have had one one goal.

As it is there are only TWO clubs ahead of us maybe Holt is doing something right, as are the team and Lambert.

And to be honest i don''t really care where Holt plays as long as his contribution leads to wins. I shan''t refuse to attend any possible playoff games or boycott any open top bus parade because Holt didn''t scote the required number of goals expected of him.

But I will applaud his do or die approach, I shall applaud Lamberts tactics and also recognise that in just over a year we have come an awful long way.

If it aint broke ..................

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[quote user="cityangel"][quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

Its not all about goals and anyway how may clear cut chances did he get yesterday? - none![/quote]

But goals win games , winning games gets you points and lots of points keeps you near the top of the table.

As for no clear cut chances I thought that he had one late in the 2nd half after Jackson & Korey put him clear and he shot over the top ???

 

[/quote]

Holt is as good as most strikers in this division, why do people keep putting the poor guy under the microscope, all strikers miss more chances than they score, he is a great servant to this club and continues to be so at the moment!

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[quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="LinkNR9"]CA, I think that the main reason for Holt being ''on the wing'' a fair amount is because of the formation we play. With the ''diamond'' our midfield is quite narrow; if our full backs can''t get forward (for example, if the opposition is playing with out-and-out attacking wingers), then the two forwards have to get on to the end of anything that is played into the advanced wing positions. It''s not just Holt - Jackson or Chris Martin also do this (take a look next game).   [/quote]

I thank you for your comments Links, I will watch carefully on Tuesday night and return with my observations

I love Holt as much as everyone else and it honestly wasn''t mean to be a knocking thread.

[/quote]

People will know that you''re 100% behind the team, CA, and that you wouldn''t moan about any of our players (unlike some of the posters on here!). 

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I wouldn''t say Grant Holt needs dropping because he does create a lot but I honestly don''t think he will get more than 10 goals this season.  In League 1 he got away with drifting out wide but he won''t and isn''t at this level.  It''s not bad that he drops out wide occasionaly but when he does it the entire game it''s not very good at all.  At the end of the day strikers are put in the team to score goals and work rate dosn''t make up for goals at all, this dosn''t mean I would drop him now but come January if we manage to get someone who gives half the workrate of Holt but scores goals then Lambert seriously needs to think about dropping him.  Also I''m really not sure he is up to the Championship.  He has had eleven games to get fit and if he isn''t fit yet then he obviously can''t manage it at this level.  Also his first touch is so poor it''s unbelievable.  And for his size he dosn''t actually win that much in the air because he just backs into the defender trying to be clever rather than actually going for the ball.

I wouldn''t drop him yet because to his credit he does create a fair few chances but some of the stuff people come out with about him is unbelievable.  Yes he scored 30 goals last season but he really isn''t as good as some people think.  And is all this hard work and pulling out wide really giving as much benefit to the team as people make out?  I don''t think so.

I''m not trying to knock him, I''m really not but some people need to realise he is not THAT good and is certainly droppable if he carries on the way he is.

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[quote user="KenBrown"][quote user="Shyster"]

Holt is doing what is required of him by Lambert within the current formation and it''s proving effective, yes!

[/quote]

I am really surprised that in the whole thread only one person has mentioned the team.

There is another thread extolling the virtues of the away and the lack of goals conceded.  That comes at a price.  The side is playing 10 yds deeper to achieve a compact difficult to beat unit.  The most noticeable place you see the difference in is the ST''s.  Holt gets singled out because of his prevoius successes and the reason he looks knackered near the end of the games is that he is working opposition defences far harder than he has had to do in the past.

We are having a good run, its always hard in your early days in a higher division so I am currently happy.

If I have a fear it is that Lambert is the son of MON and we will always be a hard workman like side ( much as Vanilla ( and I think Leicester were) and LPool will be !!!) and I would like to see more expression in the side once initial objectives ( staying in the division) have been met

 
[/quote]

I agree with this. The reason why we are doing well is we are now a team where as the three previous seasons in the Champs we were a collection of footballers. Sometimes very good footballers but they didn''t function as a team. We do play a little deeper, not just away from home either, but it''s working.

We don''t just work as a team when we have the ball, we also work as a team when we don''t have it. I didn''t go yesterday but I notice the posession stats were 50/50. And most games don''t vary by more than 10% either way. So it''s as important to play as a team when we have posession and when we don''t. It''s the latter that''s really improved under Lambert. Grant Holt is a very good player when we don''t have the ball. In fact we are now a very good team when we don''t have the ball. And that''s half the game!

If a game ends 0-0 folk will say the defence played a blinder and and say we would have won if the forwards had scored. If we lose a game 3-2 they will blame the defenders saying the strikers scored but we still let in three. But although football is a simple game it''s not that simple. We have to attack as a team and defend as a team. When we got relegated Sammy Clingan was touted as the ''real'' POTS. I disagree with that, I thought he was one of the reasons we got relelgated. He regularly lost his man and left the defence exposed. They regularly got the blame because Clingan is a stylish player when he has the ball so his short-comings were disguised. The Championship is a tough unforgiving league and any lapse of concentration from the keeper right through to the forwards will be punished.

Last season 6 League One Strikers scored 20 goals or more but only 2 Championship strikers just reached 20. It''s much harder to score goals. And it''s ceretainly not up the a targetman like Holt to score all the goals. I didn''t go yesterday but I have been really impressed by Holt this season and I see Lambert singled him out yesterday. But I was told he ran their defence into the ground and I bet their defence are glad they don''t come up against him every week.

We have scored 17 goals in the League this season. Holt has scored 2 of them. Both winners. He also has 4 assists which means he is responsible for over a third of our goals. I personally think it''s more disappointing that Hoolahan, Lappin and young Korey Smith only have one goal between them than Holts so called lack of goals. If Holt took our penalties he would probably be right up their with 5 goals and his 4 assists and we wouldn''t be having this discussion.

 

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I dont understand this whole "why is Holt on the wing he should be in the box" thing

Yes Ideally id love Holt to be poised in the box to knock home a Hoolahan cross but it doesnt work that way

If you watch Holt, hes fantastic at winning and holding the ball up, and if that means coming wide while the rest of our players move forward and work the ball to goal that way so be it. Hes clearly working to an agenda set by Lambert for the team, not himself

its worth remembering that if Holt didn''t have the ball out wide and was instead in the box, we may not have the ball at all - It could be well be working its way at the feet of one of their full backs or wingers!

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[quote user="LinkNR9"]

People will know that you''re 100% behind the team, CA, and that you wouldn''t moan about any of our players (unlike some of the posters on here!). 

[/quote]

Thankyou Links, yes I am 100% behind them all and always will be. 

 I hope that Holty scores a couple on Tuesday so that when I get home I see this thread at the top with someone asking me what I thought to his goals [:)]

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Boyo, you say he is droppable if he carrys on the way he is.

Sorry mate I just can''t see any credibility in that statement at all and if i could, who would you replace him with. Please don''t say Chris Martin and Jackson as I simply refer you to the Watford game and others where Holt has not played.

Yesterday he caused havoc to a defence with the best defensive record in the league. A total joy to watch.

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I think those that doubt Holt need to be looking at these statistics:

http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/Shooting/0,,10355~201010355,00.html

http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/Goalscorers/0,,10355~201010355,00.html

http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/Assists/0,,10355~201010355,00.html

People are talking about dropping the player who''s provided us the most goals (in all competitions), assists and shots. I''m quite grateful that Lambert is the boss and not some of you.

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[quote user="TheFanMan"]I think those that doubt Holt need to be looking at these statistics:

http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/Shooting/0,,10355~201010355,00.html

http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/Goalscorers/0,,10355~201010355,00.html

http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/Assists/0,,10355~201010355,00.html

People are talking about dropping the player who''s provided us the most goals (in all competitions), assists and shots. I''m quite grateful that Lambert is the boss and not some of you.[/quote]The best stat among all of those tables:Assists - John Ruddy - 1[:D]

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"Assists - John Ruddy - 1"

which just goes to show what meaningless twaddle this stuff is

sadly football is now populated by those with little real knowledge of the game and so these nonsense ''facts'' will continue to be spouted so as to show some ''understanding'' of the game

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I honestly wouldn''t care if Holt only scored 5 goals all season if we stay in the top 3.

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