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Boyo

Get off Martin's back and lets look at Holt

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Chris Martin has had a lot of criticisime recently and for me most of it has been wrongly so.  I know 1 goal in 8 is not very good but I think he has been pretty good so far this season apart from his goalscoring.  A lot of the time he gets called lazy which isn''t the case.  His body language often gives of negative vibes because he gets so fustrated which makes it look like he is not putting in enough effort.  And on to my point, Holt hasn''t been exactly very good has he?  I think this season there is more of a case that Holt is not putting in enough effort rather than Martin.

Holt is our main striker and by this I mean, when we bypass Hoolahan the ball goes to Holt the majority of the time and from this he needs to do something creative to create a chance.  In this league Holt is not good enough to do that.  Also if we are going to do this you cannot have a striker who plays the same as Holt partnering him because if Holt is going to do anything then he needs someone who makes a lot of runs to play it to him.  This striker could be Jackson.

And overall I think Chris Martin is a better striker than Grant Holt and they both play in the same way so I think it would be better to have Martin doing the creative work when we bypass Hoolahan rather than Holt, thus, playing Martin with Jackson.

I know we won''t drop Holt because if he is our captain and all that but I completely disagree with people calling for Martin to be dropped so Holt and Jackson can play when Martin and Jackson would actually be the better partnership.  We won''t see the best of Martin untill he is playing with a different style of player to himself.

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If Holt stayed in the bloody box rather than drifting out wide yesterday we would have won I am sure. There were too many times when Hoolahan, Lappin, etc had the ball in a crossing position but there was just no-one in the box. Last season Holt would have bust a gut to get into the box, but now he is either caught wandering or has the ball out on the wing! He''s definitely not at the top of his game, Martin/Jackson for 45 minutes on Tuesday I think.

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[quote user="Excited Canary"]If Holt stayed in the bloody box rather than drifting out wide yesterday we would have won I am sure. There were too many times when Hoolahan, Lappin, etc had the ball in a crossing position but there was just no-one in the box. Last season Holt would have bust a gut to get into the box, but now he is either caught wandering or has the ball out on the wing! He''s definitely not at the top of his game, Martin/Jackson for 45 minutes on Tuesday I think.[/quote]

Remind me - who''s our top scorer this season? It must be Chris Martin, right? Even though he missed a one-on-one yesterday, and looks every bit a 2-goals-in-10-games striker, you''d play him instead of Holt?

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The problem with a Martin/Jackson combo is that we lack a real physical presence up front - we saw that in the opening match and when Holt came on suddenly we looked more threatening.  I think that while Holt has hardly covered himself in glory, he didn''t play as badly as some suggest he did yesterday; to be honest I thought Martin had a very poor game and his worst for quite some time.Actually I think the real problem in terms of our strikeforce is that we simply don''t have another player in Holt''s mould.  He''s blatantly not been fully fit as he missed almost all of pre-season and he hasn''t been in top form by any means but we''re lacking an alternative.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]

Actually I think the real problem in terms of our strikeforce is that we simply don''t have another player in Holt''s mould.  He''s blatantly not been fully fit as he missed almost all of pre-season and he hasn''t been in top form by any means but we''re lacking an alternative.
[/quote]

Thats precisely why we need a championship proven loanee striker, to give him some competition.

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[quote user="Boyo"]

And overall I think Chris Martin is a better striker than Grant Holt and they both play in the same way

[/quote]

They play in the same way?

No, they don''t. Not at all.

 

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[quote user="Old Boy"][quote user="Excited Canary"]If Holt stayed in the bloody box rather than drifting out wide yesterday we would have won I am sure. There were too many times when Hoolahan, Lappin, etc had the ball in a crossing position but there was just no-one in the box. Last season Holt would have bust a gut to get into the box, but now he is either caught wandering or has the ball out on the wing! He''s definitely not at the top of his game, Martin/Jackson for 45 minutes on Tuesday I think.[/quote]

Remind me - who''s our top scorer this season? It must be Chris Martin, right? Even though he missed a one-on-one yesterday, and looks every bit a 2-goals-in-10-games striker, you''d play him instead of Holt?[/quote]Actually Holt is our top scorer?

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I think an Oli and Jackson combination tuesday would really give them a kick up the backsides. I just feel that when you look at our team the last three games we ooze quality football, that is until you reach the strikers. A Jacko and Oli combo probably wouldn''t work but it would drum the message into Holt and Martin''s head that they need to pull their fingers out.

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Am I the only person who thought Holt had a good game yesterday and was starting to look more like his usual self?

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Holty and Martin aren''t yet performing as a partnership as well as they did last season. Whether this is because they are facing better opposition, or Holty is not yet fully fit, I do not know. Their link up play is not quite fully flowing, but it will come. They spent a whole season together perfecting it last year and we reaped the rewards. Good players do not forget where the goal is, but they just need to find each other on the pitch which should hopefully help each other out.

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[quote user="canary_girl"]Am I the only person who thought Holt had a good game yesterday and was starting to look more like his usual self?[/quote]

Ball fizzed across the six yard box 5 or 6 occasions at head height and our big centre forward was nowhere to be seen. I personally think Holt is capable of playing in the championship and scoring goals, however not enough goals to fire us into the premiership.

There is one serious question I would like somebody to answer - it is said that Holts lack of goals at Forest was because he was played out wide - was he really played out wide ? or did he drift out wide becoming ineffective ?

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[quote user="Lambert is King"]

[quote user="canary_girl"]Am I the only person who thought Holt had a good game yesterday and was starting to look more like his usual self?[/quote]

Ball fizzed across the six yard box 5 or 6 occasions at head height and our big centre forward was nowhere to be seen. I personally think Holt is capable of playing in the championship and scoring goals, however not enough goals to fire us into the premiership.

There is one serious question I would like somebody to answer - it is said that Holts lack of goals at Forest was because he was played out wide - was he really played out wide ? or did he drift out wide becoming ineffective ?

[/quote]

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There is one serious question I would like somebody to answer - it is said that Holts lack of goals at Forest was because he was played out wide - was he really played out wide ? or did he drift out wide becoming ineffective ?

My mates who support Forest says he originally started up front but then got moved to play on the wing towards the end of his time at Forest

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After everything Holt did for the club last season.... and you''re having a pop at him?He was brought in to do a job in Div 3 and did it. Give the lad a break and wish him well should he move on in the transfer window.

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I really can''t believe what Boyo is saying here.

Did you actually go to the game?

Holt was a continual thorn in their defence. His movement off and on the ball is getting better every game.

The lad had a fairly serious injury and is only getting back to any where near match fitness level.

Lambert has no other player of this type in the squad and in a few months time it will be revealed that Holt had to play for the sake of the shape of the team.

Having said that, his contribution to the game yesterday was immense. he is captain and he led from the front.

As for Martin, he worries me. His body language is not good and for a young lad he lacks that bit of extra pace. I''m sure you won''t agree with me Boyo but a fit consistent Holt is quicker than a fit inconsistent Martin.

If anything is tried Tuesday it should be a Holt Jackson start.

Finally all this panning of the Hull game is a nonsense. This is what happens in football. The home game dominates but loses in the final minutes. Nigel Pearson confirms this.

It is not long ago when we were watching a Gunn team play total carp football. Now that was a time to moan.

For goodness sake get a grip.

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[quote user="Bury Yellow"]I really can''t believe what Boyo is saying here.

Did you actually go to the game?

Holt was a continual thorn in their defence. His movement off and on the ball is getting better every game.

The lad had a fairly serious injury and is only getting back to any where near match fitness level.

Lambert has no other player of this type in the squad and in a few months time it will be revealed that Holt had to play for the sake of the shape of the team.

Having said that, his contribution to the game yesterday was immense. he is captain and he led from the front.

As for Martin, he worries me. His body language is not good and for a young lad he lacks that bit of extra pace. I''m sure you won''t agree with me Boyo but a fit consistent Holt is quicker than a fit inconsistent Martin.

If anything is tried Tuesday it should be a Holt Jackson start.

Finally all this panning of the Hull game is a nonsense. This is what happens in football. The home game dominates but loses in the final minutes. Nigel Pearson confirms this.

It is not long ago when we were watching a Gunn team play total carp football. Now that was a time to moan.

For goodness sake get a grip.[/quote]

Completely agree

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]The problem with a Martin/Jackson combo is that we lack a real physical presence up front - we saw that in the opening match and when Holt came on suddenly we looked more threatening.  I think that while Holt has hardly covered himself in glory, he didn''t play as badly as some suggest he did yesterday; to be honest I thought Martin had a very poor game and his worst for quite some time.Actually I think the real problem in terms of our strikeforce is that we simply don''t have another player in Holt''s mould.  He''s blatantly not been fully fit as he missed almost all of pre-season and he hasn''t been in top form by any means but we''re lacking an alternative.[/quote]

Oh ffs, would you people please drop the bollox that we need a lump up front in the form of Holt! Not only is he out of sorts, he also isn''t playing as a target-man and he''s seldom in the fucking box - maybe a target-man is useful within a 4-4-2, but not so much in the current system.Helguson & Mackie are hardly weighty, nor tall target-man types and QPR are scoring goals for a laugh - in fact, QPR, have been playing with four attackers this season and three of those are primarily wingers!

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]Maybe we should start playing like Barcelona....we could loan Messi for 3 months, to get him back to fitness after his 2 week injury :P[/quote]

Or maybe Lambo should simply drop off-colour players to the bench and create competition within the ranks instead of relying on the tried and trusted that got us out of the Division that is one step away from the Conference [:P]A change of formation wouldn''t go awry either, and dare I suggest a 4-2-1-3? The very formation Barcelona prefer to employ? The system that even inspires youth teams in good ol'' blighty [:P]I''m certain Hoolahan and Holt will be fielded in the first eleven within a diamond formation against Leicester - I''m also pretty sure we''ll garner three points, but I fear it will be the wrong decision by Lambo in the long-term.

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chris Martin has scored one.. just 1... championship goal in 4 yearsim not saying he isn''t good enough for this level. but he has played in the championship before and struggled to score goals... He has played in leagues 1 and 2 and scored for fun...There will come a time if Chris Martin isn''t scoring where Paul Lambert will have to drop him... this will be an indication on whether or not he is a championship striker or if he has a future at a lower level.

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You could maybe get your facts right jas...Martin scored 4 goals in 2007.......(and he was up front on his own, Hux was there, but he was out wide, even more than Holt) (and then Roeder came in, who decided he was useless...)

And Holt, is not playing well, they both need to be dropped, but we don''t have anyone to replace them with.....Jackson might be ok, but i haven''t really seen enough to judge him...

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]You could maybe get your facts right jas...Martin scored 4 goals in 2007.......(and he was up front on his own, Hux was there, but he was out wide, even more than Holt) (and then Roeder came in, who decided he was useless...)

And Holt, is not playing well, they both need to be dropped, but we don''t have anyone to replace them with.....Jackson might be ok, but i haven''t really seen enough to judge him...[/quote]wow.. 4 goals in 3 years.. Grant holt has got half that in 8 games....

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So, he has done nothing else...every home game (bar saturday, as i wasn''t there), he looked LAZY not unfit, lazy, not bothering half the time....

and half that in 8 games, sounds just as bad....especially for someone of Holts age/experience...

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Some observations, not necessarily connected.

I thought Holt was much improved on Saturday, looked fitter and more of a handful.

Yes, he drifts out wide too much. Get in the box, man.

Martin and Jackson looked a decent partnership against Watford. We looked good enough in that game going forward - we lost because of appalling defending. There''s no reason why they couldn''t play together. My hunch is that they will be our first-choice pairing by the end of the season.

I think Martin''s done all right. He''s never going to be a barnstorming up-and-at-''em centre forward like Holt. People who think they are the same player need their seats turned round so they actually face the pitch. Martin likes to drop off, get the ball, bring others in. He''s a classic second striker. When he was played as the centre forward vs Watford I was very encouraged by his improved physicality. He''ll be fine.

Jas, what are you on? How is Martin supposed to score goals in the Championship if he''s not playing in it?

Nine times out of ten we would have won on Saturday and would not be having this conversation. Holt and Martin will be fine. Probably not fine enough to get us promoted, but fine enough for our highest league finish in five years.

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I didn''t go to the game on saturday but it has sounded to me in the last two games as if Holty is getting back to something approaching his best. Drafting out wide too much has always been an issue with him and, coupled with the fact Martin also likes to play the "support striker" does give us some problems with there often not being enough bodies in the box. i am a little disappointed that this is something Lambert has not yet managed to resolve but i guess if you take Holt''s enthusiasm and chasing back out of his game you only get half the player. In my view they both need to be told in no uncertain terms that when the midfield have the ball their job is to get in the box and give the midfielders a target.

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[quote user="Lambert is King"]

[quote user="canary_girl"]Am I the only person who thought Holt had a good game yesterday and was starting to look more like his usual self?[/quote]

Ball fizzed across the six yard box 5 or 6 occasions at head height and our big centre forward was nowhere to be seen. I personally think Holt is capable of playing in the championship and scoring goals, however not enough goals to fire us into the premiership.

There is one serious question I would like somebody to answer - it is said that Holts lack of goals at Forest was because he was played out wide - was he really played out wide ? or did he drift out wide becoming ineffective ?

[/quote]

Colin Calderwood played him as an out an out winger to accomodate Tyson and Agogo.

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I still think that Holt can come good for us this season, but he is far from fully fit and I can''t really understand why he has been getting 90 mins regularly this season when in some games he has struggled to walk - let alone run.  Maybe Lambert is trying to give him as many minutes as possible in order to bring up up to full match fitness ASAP?  I wonder if Lambo could be giving Holty too much time on the pitch and slowing up the process of him reaching full fitness however?I do agree that Chris Martin should not be withdrawn from games so much - he is the best player we have by a long way (probably worth near the £5 million mark if he has a good season).  I would be mixing and matching Holt and Jackson with him at the moment - giving the pair of them a more equal amount of time on the pitch (ie: Jackson on between 60 and 65 mins at the latest if we have failed to score or are chasing the game).  I don''t think that Jackson has been given a fair chance to prove his worth yet, which is silly considering he was one of our two prize signings of the summer.

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]chris Martin has scored one.. just 1... championship goal in 4 yearsim not saying he isn''t good enough for this level. but he has played in the championship before and struggled to score goals... He has played in leagues 1 and 2 and scored for fun...There will come a time if Chris Martin isn''t scoring where Paul Lambert will have to drop him... this will be an indication on whether or not he is a championship striker or if he has a future at a lower level.

[/quote]That could have a lot to do with him being on loan at Luton for a season and us playing in the 3rd Division for a season.

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[quote user="Bury Yellow"]I really can''t believe what Boyo is saying here. Did you actually go to the game? Holt was a continual thorn in their defence. His movement off and on the ball is getting better every game. The lad had a fairly serious injury and is only getting back to any where near match fitness level. Lambert has no other player of this type in the squad and in a few months time it will be revealed that Holt had to play for the sake of the shape of the team. Having said that, his contribution to the game yesterday was immense. he is captain and he led from the front. As for Martin, he worries me. His body language is not good and for a young lad he lacks that bit of extra pace. I''m sure you won''t agree with me Boyo but a fit consistent Holt is quicker than a fit inconsistent Martin. If anything is tried Tuesday it should be a Holt Jackson start. Finally all this panning of the Hull game is a nonsense. This is what happens in football. The home game dominates but loses in the final minutes. Nigel Pearson confirms this. It is not long ago when we were watching a Gunn team play total carp football. Now that was a time to moan. For goodness sake get a grip.[/quote]

Yes, I did.

And overall I wasn''t saying that we should actually play Martin and Jackson on Tuesday I was just saying that everyone seems to want to drop Martin when I actually think a Martin and Jackson partnership would be better than Holt and Jackson.  And Holt being a continual thorn in Hull''s defence?  Really!?

I would pick the same team Tuesday and I don''t want a Martin-Jackson partnership Tuesday either.  I was just making a point.

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