Goalkeepers

[andyc24_uk 58]

It''s increasingly clear where our problems lie at the moment - just like Saturday, we dominated the outfield and are palying some fantastic football, and it''s a credit to the lads that they''ve got us so high up the table. But, just as on Saturday we conceded two goals that we shouldn''t have, we let in three today. Everton''s 3rd-choice goalkeeper simply isn''t good enough. At least a third of the goals we''ve conceded so far this season should and probably would have been stopped by a better ''keeper; unfortunately it''s increasingly clear that Ruddy is not up to Championship standard. When we have the very impressive Declan Rudd on the bench, who''s barely put a foot wrong in the few senior games he''s played, it''s hard to see how Lambert can justify keeping ruddy in the starting lineup - He''s got 99% of decisions spot-on since he arrived, but my sense is he''s made a mistake in signing Ruddy and he''s currently trying to justify it by giving him chances that his form doesn''t merit. I hope we cut ourr losses soon, make Rudd first-choice for the rest of the season and at Christmas, bring in an experienced older ''keeper as backup and to help Rudd, Ruddy and Steer along...

[jed exodous 0]

Its a tough decision.  Only Lambert will make it and it will depend on what hes seen in training.  Rudd is an excellent prospect and as said hasn''t let us down, but it is a massive step up from reserve and youth team to playing every week in the championship.  While we''re grinding out results, i think Lambert will stick with Ruddy for the time being.  Perhaps if we lost 3 or 4 on the bounce and Ruddy was to blame for some of those then he''d have to look at it again.

[Nolly 0]

yes we''ve let in 5 in the last two games but only the first last night i''d blame Ruddy for.

If he was constantly making errors and we were losing games through them then yes i''d say change it

But give the guy a break and give him time before making a decision on him.

I remember when Gunny first arrived here and i wondered what the hell we had bought as he was charging around all over the place, and look what happened to him.

[ROBFLECK 132]

[quote user="andyc24_uk"]It''s increasingly clear where our problems lie at the moment - just like Saturday, we dominated the outfield and are palying some fantastic football, and it''s a credit to the lads that they''ve got us so high up the table. But, just as on Saturday we conceded two goals that we shouldn''t have, we let in three today. Everton''s 3rd-choice goalkeeper simply isn''t good enough. At least a third of the goals we''ve conceded so far this season should and probably would have been stopped by a better ''keeper; unfortunately it''s increasingly clear that Ruddy is not up to Championship standard. When we have the very impressive Declan Rudd on the bench, who''s barely put a foot wrong in the few senior games he''s played, it''s hard to see how Lambert can justify keeping ruddy in the starting lineup - He''s got 99% of decisions spot-on since he arrived, but my sense is he''s made a mistake in signing Ruddy and he''s currently trying to justify it by giving him chances that his form doesn''t merit. I hope we cut ourr losses soon, make Rudd first-choice for the rest of the season and at Christmas, bring in an experienced older ''keeper as backup and to help Rudd, Ruddy and Steer along...[/quote]I don''t completely agree with you andy. Ruddy''s played some good games too. he''s not the main reason for the goals we''ve let in. The first was his mistake, but there are defensive mistakes leading to goals to, where Ruddy is not to blame for. I don''t think Ruddy is as good as Frazer and I agree with you that Rudd is a prospect to savour! But he''s still young and we''ve got to let him grow. For the moment I still stick with PL''s decision to play Ruddy.

Head''s up, we won the game!

[Bobert 0]

[quote user="Nolly"]yes we''ve let in 5 in the last two games but only the first last night i''d blame Ruddy for.

If he was constantly making errors and we were losing games through them then yes i''d say change it

But give the guy a break and give him time before making a decision on him.

I remember when Gunny first arrived here and i wondered what the hell we had bought as he was charging around all over the place, and look what happened to him.[/quote]

I do keep saying, on this Board, that we do not have "time" if we want to play with the big boys.

Ruddy is an experienced goal-keeper and was given a 3 year contract on that basis. He should not need "time".

Its time for our new directors to come up with the funds for the Club to buy big when the transfer window opens. Delia always had a price on a Directorship so hand out the invoices! Lets strengthen the defence and make it "Fortress Carrow" again.

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

He''s clearly a very good keeper but has made a couple of big errors, once you''ve made somebody your Number 1 you stick with him and give him confidence. I saw a lot of Motherwell games last season and know he is a good keeper, it''s frustrating seeing errors like last night.

[trueyellow 0]

Yes he has made an error but i cant think of any other goals that we have conceded that we his fault? We were far too open last night and got punished for it for their 2nd and 3rd goals. A confident Ruddy is a good keeper, good shot stopper, good and commanding his area with good distribution. Fraser was a good shot stopper.

There were moans and groans last night when Ruddy didnt release the ball quickly, people need to understand that this cannot happen every time, there has to be an option open to him which is better than the long ball to Holt? There is little point in giving it short to then get it back at the first touch.

[Old Shuck 183]

I''m surprised Ruddy didn''t break something in his foot when he kicked the goalpost after their first goal last night, his frustration and anger was very clear to see-it shows he has passion, which is good.

Everyone seemed to be out of position for their second, that looked more like an all-round defensive lapse to me, collective responsibility there.

Ruddy does look vulnerable at the near post, but does have lots of other assets. Its unfortunate for him that he is following FF, who was playing in a lower league against "lesser" opposition, who knows how he would have performed in this league, likewise, would Ruddy had shone more, had he played last season?

Rudd has a bit future and, hopefully, with us, but, for now, am sure PL will stick with Rudd. We are 3rd in the league and all he can say is "look at the table"-and no arguments there from me!

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

Really annoyed me when fans started groaning during the first half. Leicester had 11 men behind the ball, a forward pass is not always on and if anything the crowd caused us to rush the ball forward and back to Leicester at times. Also why should Ruddy release the ball after a set play if Holt & co are still back defending it, who does he kick the ball downfield to?

[Beauseant 0]

The first goal was a horrible error, but the real measure of the player is how he responds. Ruddy went on to handle the ball well and make a couple of excellent saves. He''s a very promising young keeper but will make the odd howler (does no-one else remember the young Greeno?).

Rudd is benefitting in terms of his rating amongst fans from not having played much, because exactly the same will apply to him. When he did play against Barnsley he kicked like he was wearing wellies, but (quite rightly) no-one gave him too much stick about it. He, too, is  a great prospect, but some way behind Ruddy in experience.

What annoys meis the subtext behind the sort of post that started this thread. There seems to be an automatic response to leap on every mistake of players brought into the club while eulogising those who came through the Academy . A good example of this is the breast beating over Spilllane''s release, a player frequently described as a "much better right back than Russell Martin". That would of course be the Russell Martin who has played superbly over the last few weeks.

[Block E Buh 0]

Get Shay Given!! Lol!

[Mello Yello 2,273]

We''ve already conceded 13 goals this season.......and they''re all that bleedin'' Ruddy''s fault.

Those other 10 blameless outfield players, should flick him with wet towels as he comes out the shower.....whilst Lambert throws teacups at him.

He''s ruddy useless......BOOO! DODGY KEEPER! BOOO!

Our defence is absolutely brilliant - and then that Ruddy goes and spoils it!

[Old Shuck 183]

[quote user="Beauseant"]

The first goal was a horrible error, but the real measure of the player is how he responds. Ruddy went on to handle the ball well and make a couple of excellent saves. He''s a very promising young keeper but will make the odd howler (does no-one else remember the young Greeno?).

Rudd is benefitting in terms of his rating amongst fans from not having played much, because exactly the same will apply to him. When he did play against Barnsley he kicked like he was wearing wellies, but (quite rightly) no-one gave him too much stick about it. He, too, is  a great prospect, but some way behind Ruddy in experience.

What annoys me is the subtext behind the sort of post that started this thread. There seems to be an automatic response to leap on every mistake of players brought into the club while eulogising those who came through the Academy . A good example of this is the breast beating over Spilllane''s release, a player frequently described as a "much better right back than Russell Martin". That would of course be the Russell Martin who has played superbly over the last few weeks.

[/quote]

Spot on Beauseant. Wish I could be as eloquent early on!

I keep looking at the table and smiling! Bristol City on Saturday is a game we should go into with confidence-things are moving along nicely, we''ll get the odd hiccup along the way, and may get the occasional pounding as well before the end of the season, but, unlike last season, we now have time to build and develop something. Last season was promotion or bust, and everything was geared to that, it was short term and an immediate requirement. This season not so much, we are a work in progress and it is enjoyable to see it developing.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

The first goal was not good and arguably he has already cost us 2 or 3 goals this season already. I also thought he should have done better with their 3rd last night as well and was a bit tentative coming off his line for crosses.

All in all i''m not convinced by him yet.

[BroadstairsR 0]

Considering there was Rudd in the making, I thought it strange that Lambert went for another young keeper, rather than an expeienced old hand for at least a season.

There will come a time, sooner or later, when one of them is not needed, given that Steer is a good prospect too.

I personally hope that it is not Rudd who we lose.

[alysha 0]

In my opinion, he responded well to the blunder and still commanded his area well and had a solid game (apart from the first goal obvisously) yet again though it was poor defending which led to that goal. I just hope his confidence isn''t knocked too badly for Bristol, and I hope he comes out and has a great game. It doesn''t help though when whoever it was who was loudly calling him a w***er every single time he recieved the ball! No fan likes it when they see their keeper makes a mistake like this, but we have to remember some of the great saves he has made which has either kept us in or made us able to win a game. 3rd in league, lets just get behind the team!

[InLambertWeTrust! 0]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]

We''ve already conceded 13 goals this season.......and they''re all that bleedin'' Ruddy''s fault.

Those other 10 blameless outfield players, should flick him with wet towels as he comes out the shower.....whilst Lambert throws teacups at him.

He''s ruddy useless......BOOO! DODGY KEEPER! BOOO!

Our defence is absolutely brilliant - and then that Ruddy goes and spoils it!

[/quote]That just about sums it up.

[BroadstairsR 0]

Defenses play better when they have total confidence in the keeper.

A mistake prone goalkeeper makes any defence nervous. 

[RichT - The Biscuit 0]

Yes he made an error that he should have saved but what concerned me most last night was how easily the guy skipped everyones legend, the god that is Adam Drury!

If we keep letting people get in behind us that easily we could have the worlds best keeper in goal and eventually we''ll concede!

No I''m not giving him an excuse as it was awful but he should never been in that position as we should have dealt with it long before it got near him should we not.

The mark of a true man is not the mistakes they make but the way they come back from it.....and I thought his handling after that was good.

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

The Ghost of Fraser Forster will not go away, but alas we could not afford the loan fee let alobe a transfer fee, at the moment that is! ruddy is a 6/10 goali for me makes the odd mistake like last night . I think we need to give him a good rum.

Matty Gilks never got a look in here now he is 1st choice in the premiership for blackpool. Also Ruddy is stiil quite young and needs to learn

[andyc24_uk 58]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

Considering there was Rudd in the making, I thought it strange that Lambert went for another young keeper, rather than an expeienced old hand for at least a season.

There will come a time, sooner or later, when one of them is not needed, given that Steer is a good prospect too.

I personally hope that it is not Rudd who we lose.

[/quote]

This is one of the things that worries me... I''m not one of those who''s hung up on Forster - It would have been great to get him, I think he''s a player it would have been worth breaking the bank to sign, but we didn''t and that''s that. End of story. We move on. But we should be moving on with Declan Rudd.

I agree with the previous posts about needing to gain experience - Rudd needs this as well. What we''ve done is essentially take one of the brightest young goalkeeping prospects in the country and leave him on the bench in a season when he urgently needs to play to develop his game; and instead buy and play a player who''s a few years older, has much less long-term potential to become a top-class keeper, doesn''t have significantly more experience at this level (sorry, but the SPL is a weaker league than the Championship - probably similar to League 1) and has already failed to make the grade at Premiership level (Ruddy rarely even made the subs'' bench at Everton, he was 3rd choice at best).

I stand by my argument that he''s not performing to the necessary standard - Yes, the defence isn''t perfect; but a good defence needs a ''keeper behind it who is in control and in whom the defenders have faith. Ruddy at times looks like a rabbit in headlights, he''s made a number of individual errors that have cost us, and he''s failed to deal with balls that have got past the defence, where I think Rudd, as a more naturally talented keeper with a better footballing brain, would have had them covered.

Don''t get me wrong, I think Ruddy is an OK keeper who could do quite well at League 1 level, or as a backup in the Championship - but I don''t think he''s the strongest option at the club, and with two fantastic prospects coming through the ranks I think his presence is actually detrimental to the long-term future of the team.

[barclaystand 0]

A point very well put Andyc24.

I agree with it too, Ruddy does worry me.

[staffs canary 0]

The problem is whenever a keeper makes a mistake it normally ends with a goal been scored.A keeper could make 4 or 5 good saves but would be remembered for 1 mistake, A striker could miss 4 or 5 sitters but score a winning goal and the sitters would be forgotten.

[Superstitious Dave 0]

Brainless idiot! Forgetting the penalty save against swansea are we? Yes 1st goal was johns fault but he responded well, Elliot ward didn''t have a good game but nothing gets said about him! Joe hart made a mistake the other week all keepers do get used to it num nuts!

[andyc24_uk 58]

Thanks, Olski_yellows, for your considered, helpful, worthwhile insight into the debate. My level of respect for your intelligent mastery of prose could not be higher.

In answer to your points, No, I''m not forgetting the penalty save against Swansea. It was good. I''m glad he made it. But I''m not sure how that makes any difference - Michael Theoklitos actually stopped at least two shots in the first game of last season, in between picking the ball out of the net, but I sincerely doubt any fan would be happy to see him back between the posts!

And yes, Ward has made mistakes too in the games he''s played so far. He''s been criticised for it, both on here and on the official website forum. I''d say the jury is still out on him, too, but I think overall he''s starting to settle in and get to grips with the league - Ruddy, IMHO, isn''t. Ward also doesn''t have an England U-20 and an England U-19 defender queuing up behind him and being forced to sit on the bench during a season that is crucial to their development.

[Clint 221]

Olski, without getting embroiled in the Rudd vs Ruddy debate, yes Ruddy did make a very good pen save vs Swansea.

On the other hand, it was Ruddy who gave it away by charging off his line and taking the guy out!

[Largey 0]

It properly gets on my nerves when people start shouting ''COME ON!'' to Ruddy after he collects the ball from a shot or corner or something. They expect either a roll-out to a side-back, from which a striker will be straight onto their back, or a big punt downfield to absolutely no-one because Holt and Co are still running back from the corner. Clearly people who do not understand football!

[Beauseant 0]

[quote user="andyc24_uk"]Thanks, Olski_yellows, for your considered, helpful, worthwhile insight into the debate. My level of respect for your intelligent mastery of prose could not be higher. In answer to your points, No, I''m not forgetting the penalty save against Swansea. It was good. I''m glad he made it. But I''m not sure how that makes any difference - Michael Theoklitos actually stopped at least two shots in the first game of last season, in between picking the ball out of the net, but I sincerely doubt any fan would be happy to see him back between the posts! And yes, Ward has made mistakes too in the games he''s played so far. He''s been criticised for it, both on here and on the official website forum. I''d say the jury is still out on him, too, but I think overall he''s starting to settle in and get to grips with the league - Ruddy, IMHO, isn''t. Ward also doesn''t have an England U-20 and an England U-19 defender queuing up behind him and being forced to sit on the bench during a season that is crucial to their development.[/quote]

 

So it really has nothing to do with Ruddy. Your agenda is dictated by your perception that Rudd will somehow go backwards if he''s not thrown into the Championship now, yet you treat Oski as if he''s some sort of simpleton.

Goalkeepers take longer to mature than outfield players, not least because they are so exposed, ie, if they make a mistake it''s usually a goal. Throw them in too early and it can damage them for good. Rudd is learning all the time and is an England regular, and I have no doubt that he will be City number one within the next two seasons. You clearly disagree, but unlike your response to anyone who doesn''t follow your line, I''ll treat that fact with respect.

[Superstitious Dave 0]

Thanks andyc24_uk my reply was actually to mello yellow or whatever he''s called because he reminded me of typical people that I hear in the stands, always jumping on players backs. Just imagine if a player came and read this forum and saw the things some people say it''s really going to help their confidence. We as fans should get behind our players and if they aren''t playing well enough PL will make that decision! I agree Declan Rudd is an awesome keeper but if he played then made mistakes my point would be justified! Being a keeper is probably the hardest position on the pitch because if u make a mistake u normally have noone to save your skin whereas if your a centre mid u give the ball away cheaply 9 times out of 10 someone else will win it back and the mistake is forgotten about! I agree John didn''t have his best game last night but he''s had more good games than bad and look at the table it doesn''t lie!

[Mello Yello 2,273]

[quote user="Olski_yellows"]Thanks andyc24_uk my reply was actually to mello yellow or whatever he''s called because he reminded me of typical people that I hear in the stands, always jumping on players backs. Just imagine if a player came and read this forum and saw the things some people say it''s really going to help their confidence. We as fans should get behind our players and if they aren''t playing well enough PL will make that decision! I agree Declan Rudd is an awesome keeper but if he played then made mistakes my point would be justified! Being a keeper is probably the hardest position on the pitch because if u make a mistake u normally have noone to save your skin whereas if your a centre mid u give the ball away cheaply 9 times out of 10 someone else will win it back and the mistake is forgotten about! I agree John didn''t have his best game last night but he''s had more good games than bad and look at the table it doesn''t lie![/quote]

We''ve already conceded 13 goals this season.......and they''re all that bleedin'' Ruddy''s fault.

Those other 10 blameless outfield players, should flick him with wet towels as he comes out the shower.....whilst Lambert throws teacups at him.

He''s ruddy useless......BOOO! DODGY KEEPER! BOOO!

Our defence is absolutely brilliant - and then that Ruddy goes and spoils it!

I was being ironic......never mind.