Are these match stats wrong then???

[HazzaJet 252]

From what I''ve heard about the game, the outcome of the result was similar to the game v Swansea. Swansea dominated that but late on with the scores at 0-0, Swansea won a spot-kick which Ruddy saved, and we went on to win 2-0, and was quite harsh on Swansea. We dominated the majority of this game but with less than 10mins left Hull scored a goal which apparently was said to be scrappy on Final Score, then Hull scored a brilliant free kick to win 2-0. They said on Final Score that it was quite harsh on us, as we didn''t deserve to lose this game. My Dad was at the game, and he said that 0-0 would have been a fair result.

[Graham Humphrey 13]

I find it interesting that Hull had eight shots on target.  Apart from the two goals and a long range shot saved by Ruddy early on, what were the others?  As I honestly have no recollection of them.  I can''t imagine they were genuine clear-cut chances?

[Power Hamster 0]

[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]I find it interesting that Hull had eight shots on target.  Apart from the two goals and a long range shot saved by Ruddy early on, what were the others?  As I honestly have no recollection of them.  I can''t imagine they were genuine clear-cut chances?[/quote]I made this point in another thread further down, but I believe that any shot that is heading towards goal is counted as a shot "on target" , even the most feeble toe-poke that goes straight to the keeper. On the other hand any shot that is not going into goal counts as "off-target", even a 30 yarder that beats the keeper and comes back off the woodwork. So those stats can be really misleading in the context of an entire match.

[ca 1]

Out of interest do all the various sites like BBC, epsn soccernet, Sky etc etc all get their stats from one source does anyone know?

[Graham Humphrey 13]

I''m pretty sure they all come from the Press Association?

[Power Hamster 0]

[quote user="cityangel"]Out of interest do all the various sites like BBC, epsn soccernet, Sky etc etc all get their stats from one source does anyone know?[/quote]I think they must come from one source because they all seem to quote the same figures.

[TIL 1010 4,737]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Bungay Canary"]did mc namee actually touch the ball yesterday totally over rated[/quote]

He was only on the pitch 5 mins and I didn''t see any of it so can''t comment.

Lappin on the other hand was clean through - one on one with only the keeper to beat and decided that he was going to cut back before puttin in a high cross that went straight across the pitch to nobody and out for a throw I believe.  Chris Martin has had abuse (and yes he is a striker), but at least when in a similar position yesterday he did hit the target and make the Hull keeper make a save.

For me Simon Lappin is totally over-rated and he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously (as was Hoolahan).  Why do so many fans assume that they are good enough to do anything different now?
[/quote]

Smudger you really are an idiot in your obsession with Lappin.In our relegation season he started 4 games(yes just 4) and made 1 appearance as a substitute.

"he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously"..... says Smudger.Care to explain that for me again could you?

 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,023]

Fair enough Smudger, and please note that I said I do not condone violence, seems to me you must have been sitting next to some very angry people....

[......and Smith must score. 1,341]

[quote user="Power Hamster"][quote user="Graham Humphrey"]I find it interesting that Hull had eight shots on target.  Apart from the two goals and a long range shot saved by Ruddy early on, what were the others?  As I honestly have no recollection of them.  I can''t imagine they were genuine clear-cut chances?[/quote]I made this point in another thread further down, but I believe that any shot that is heading towards goal is counted as a shot "on target" , even the most feeble toe-poke that goes straight to the keeper. On the other hand any shot that is not going into goal counts as "off-target", even a 30 yarder that beats the keeper and comes back off the woodwork. So those stats can be really misleading in the context of an entire match.[/quote]Agree with this completely.Lies, damn lies and statistics.......I don''t doubt that the stats are correct but anyone at the game yesterday - Hull fans included I would think - would have come away from Carrow Road knowing that Norwich City had just put in a very good shift. They were unlucky to lose, and, as Power Hamster pointed out screamers that rattle the woodwork count less than a little trickling apology of a shot that gives the goalie time to run round the goal and still save it before it goes in. For anyone not at the game they can only rely on statistics which often give a distorted picture of the game, especially a high tempo match like yesterday''s. They miss out compared to those who experienced the '' feel '' of actually being there and witness all the good build-up play.For what it''s worth I think most Canary fans were reasonably happy with what they saw yesterday. As I walked away from the ground there was almost a '' feel good '' factor amongst the fans - perhaps even better than some days when we''ve won.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="HazzaJet"]From what I''ve heard about the game, the outcome of the result was similar to the game v Swansea. Swansea dominated that but late on with the scores at 0-0, Swansea won a spot-kick which Ruddy saved, and we went on to win 2-0, and was quite harsh on Swansea. We dominated the majority of this game but with less than 10mins left Hull scored a goal which apparently was said to be scrappy on Final Score, then Hull scored a brilliant free kick to win 2-0. They said on Final Score that it was quite harsh on us, as we didn''t deserve to lose this game. My Dad was at the game, and he said that 0-0 would have been a fair result.
[/quote]

This is basically what we were saying down the pub after.  We played better than against Swansea but this time the oppo got the rub of the green and we didn`t.  Must admit i do find the stats quite unbelievable, but one thing i do know is that we had about 20 good balls into the box and in most games at least a couple of those would have lead to a goal.  Swansea defended very well, and we were a bit reluctant to shoot but on balance we easily could have won the game.  Very telling that it was all applause and no boo`s at the end.

[ZLF 274]

Now my mum is not known for having the most optimistic outlook in the world but she cam back from the game in an accepting frame of mind - we were the better team but lost to two late moments - a good free kick froma sloppily conceeded free kick (one of the sort that doc was crucified for) and a free deflection.   She agrees with Smudger (who she knows) in the Holt was not very effective,  but thought Lappin, as did the majority of the team, had a good game. We have played worse and won summed it up for her.

We know stats do not cover the game - but it seems the performance was far better than a 2-0 home defeat suggests.

Its not the end of the world - but my view is we do need to find a sharper cutting edge and to make a break through earlier in teh game to avoid a late costly goal - as today.    

[Tumbleweed 106]

Stats can be misleading, in fact I wonder what they really add in football where the feel and flow of the game is so much more important. I can''t get to saturday games anymore but when I check the results after getting in I always try to find out how we played- bottom line is that if we are playing well then that''s a good sign especially so early in the return to the championship. We can''t expect to truly dominate too many games simply because we won Lge 1 last time. Its an encouraging start and there will be blips but I am fully confident that this side will get better. PL is a tough cookie and will look at what happened and have a view on how to minimise the chances of it happening again.

As for Holt I would expect that another step up is going to be tough for him, especially when combined with an injury. Give it time. Ditto with Martin, he is a natural goalscorer and if given the ball in the right places will score goals regularly. I do worry that the back ups are on the lightweight side, Holt''s presence is one of his main assets, and Champ defences won''t take many prisoners in this 46 game bunfight.

[rainbow 0]

 

I don''t know what game some people watch honestly I don''t. Hull deserved at least a draw and probably did enough to secure all 3 points. Worst of all people should''ve been able to see the worst possibly coming after the hour mark and 99% of the people at Carrow Road (including our management team didn''t).

Well Smudger The Hull manager would seems to disagree with you then!

Hull boss Pearson: We stole points from Norwich City (headline in the Pink un)

http://www.pinkun.com/content/pinkun/norwich-city/story.aspx?brand=PINKUNOnline&category=Norwich&tBrand=PINKUNOnline&tCategory=xDefault&itemid=NOED26+Sep+2010+18%3A52%3A32%3A990

 

You my friend are deluded, arrogant, and should aplologise to the entire Snakepit for your unfounded outbursts of derranged behaviour!

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="CT"][quote user="CanaryJames"]Thing is, Holt/Hoolahan/Lappin were probably our best 3 players yesterday...although I think Lappin needed to be subbed eventually...

Smith & Martin were the weak points. The latter definitely needed hauling off, and if we had someone (Hughes) on the bench suitable to replace Smith, then that change should have happened too.

Lappin started very well, but faded late on. His delivery initially was brilliant. In the second half it was very average. McNamee should have come on for him with 20 or so minutes to go, in order to push for three points.[/quote]That is absolute sh**!Holt has been terrible for the past few games now- we need to drop him.

[/quote]scored against Gillingham (twice) Scored against Scunthorpe, scored against Preston.. he can continue to be "terrible" if he is going to score goals.... Chris martin on the other hand....

[Robert N. LiM 4,319]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]Possession statistics can be a little misleading sometimes as you can build up high percentages by moving the ball around the first two thirds of the pitch but not really doing a lot to threaten. I wasn''t there yesterday, is it possible that this is what has influenced the statistics?
[/quote]

Yes. Exactly. Hull kept the ball pretty well through the entire game - I don''t think Bullard ever gave it away - but they kept possession in pretty harmless areas, and we allowed them to be retreating to our own half and only challenging them when they crossed the halfway line. Smudger, surely you must know how limited a statistic possession is? It''s not how much of the ball you have, it''s what you do with it, and after the first ten minutes we looked by far the more dangerous side.

Where I think you are right is the sense that we were losing our way a little in the last twenty minutes. Perhaps Lambert was a bit reactive rather than pro-active, in not making a change before it was needed. We learned a valuable lesson about the danger of not scoring when you''re on top, and Lambert could have been a bit smarter about seeing it coming.

On Lappin, I think you, Smudge, are a little blinkered. He''s a limited player, sure, and probably not in our first XI, but he has grabbed his chance since Surman''s injury and had a decent game on Saturday. You really need to judge him on each individual performance rather than what he has done in the past. He worked really hard, got down the line and put some decent balls in as well as the poor ones you rightly criticise.

Ditto Hoolahan. To say he was in the relegated side, therefore he''s not good enough, is nonsense. He was mostly stuck out on the left where he was a liability. In the first of Gunn''s games he got a more central role, looked great, then got injured. I''m not arguing he''s at his best at the moment, but he''s unquestionably good enough for where we are right now, a solid, Championship side. And it''s been said he''s been more impressive away, which would make more sense since he is likely to have more space against more attacking sides.

[Ginja 26]

The only stat that matters is goals and if you don''t score goals you won''t win games, I couldn''t care less how well we played, it means nothing if you can''t put the ball in the net.For that very simple reason, Hull got what they deserved, all three points and if our players don''t start to find that cutting edge I expect many more games like this.

[John 0]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]Possession statistics can be a little misleading sometimes as you can build up high percentages by moving the ball around the first two thirds of the pitch but not really doing a lot to threaten. I wasn''t there yesterday, is it possible that this is what has influenced the statistics?[/quote]

Yes. Exactly. Hull kept the ball pretty well through the entire game - I don''t think Bullard ever gave it away - but they kept possession in pretty harmless areas, and we allowed them to be retreating to our own half and only challenging them when they crossed the halfway line. Smudger, surely you must know how limited a statistic possession is? It''s not how much of the ball you have, it''s what you do with it, and after the first ten minutes we looked by far the more dangerous side.

Where I think you are right is the sense that we were losing our way a little in the last twenty minutes. Perhaps Lambert was a bit reactive rather than pro-active, in not making a change before it was needed. We learned a valuable lesson about the danger of not scoring when you''re on top, and Lambert could have been a bit smarter about seeing it coming.

On Lappin, I think you, Smudge, are a little blinkered. He''s a limited player, sure, and probably not in our first XI, but he has grabbed his chance since Surman''s injury and had a decent game on Saturday. You really need to judge him on each individual performance rather than what he has done in the past. He worked really hard, got down the line and put some decent balls in as well as the poor ones you rightly criticise.

Ditto Hoolahan. To say he was in the relegated side, therefore he''s not good enough, is nonsense. He was mostly stuck out on the left where he was a liability. In the first of Gunn''s games he got a more central role, looked great, then got injured. I''m not arguing he''s at his best at the moment, but he''s unquestionably good enough for where we are right now, a solid, Championship side. And it''s been said he''s been more impressive away, which would make more sense since he is likely to have more space against more attacking sides.

[/quote]Hoolahan''s form before he was injured in our relegation season:GP 7 - LDLWLWWAfter:GP 7 - DLLWLLLI''ve gone over this however many times in the past at some depth, but in summary i firmly believe if he hadn''t of been injured against Plymouth, we wouldn''t have been relegated.He played no part in the abysmal run that got us relegated, was shut out for much of the latter part Roeder''s tenure, and our form vastly improved when he was involved.The image people have of Hoolahan''s history at this level on here is so utterly distorted that it''s laughable. He was often picked in the ''Championship Team Of The Week'' as the best left winger in the division on many occasions at Blackpool, and, apart from his early form under Roeder, he''s never consistently been anonymous on the pitch for us in his time here.Bar the early/middle part of last season, contrary to the general consensus, he''s never been a goalscoring machine, but what he contributes to the team in his gameplay is the envy of many at this level.

[Hog 0]

Holt is not going to get us 20 goals plus in the Championship

Chrissy Martin is too lazy, and although he will score a few this season is not yet good enough

Lappin tries hard and is a good squad player, we do miss Surnam though

Hoolohan, has been very poor so far imo.

 

To maintain our position we had better hope Jackson gets a chance and proves worth the price tag and a couple of choice players on loan is a must.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Salahuddin"]

Holt is not going to get us 20 goals plus in the Championship

Chrissy Martin is too lazy, and although he will score a few this season is not yet good enough

Lappin tries hard and is a good squad player, we do miss Surnam though

Hoolohan, has been very poor so far imo.

 

To maintain our position we had better hope Jackson gets a chance and proves worth the price tag and a couple of choice players on loan is a must.

[/quote]I agree with all of this, except the Chris Martin comment - but don''t worry I won''t threaten you with violence or the like (unlike some) just because you don''t agree with me on my favourite player!

[Trent Canary 0]

[quote user="rainbow"]

 

I don''t know what game some people watch honestly I don''t. Hull deserved at least a draw and probably did enough to secure all 3 points. Worst of all people should''ve been able to see the worst possibly coming after the hour mark and 99% of the people at Carrow Road (including our management team didn''t).

Well Smudger The Hull manager would seems to disagree with you then!

Hull boss Pearson: We stole points from Norwich City (headline in the Pink un)

http://www.pinkun.com/content/pinkun/norwich-city/story.aspx?brand=PINKUNOnline&category=Norwich&tBrand=PINKUNOnline&tCategory=xDefault&itemid=NOED26+Sep+2010+18%3A52%3A32%3A990

 

You my friend are deluded, arrogant, and should aplologise to the entire Snakepit for your unfounded outbursts of derranged behaviour!

[/quote]So the Hull boss thought they stole the points. Im sure ''Lies, damned lies, and statistics'' is appropriate here..

[Largey 0]

[quote user="Salahuddin"]

Holt is not going to get us 20 goals plus in the Championship

Chrissy Martin is too lazy, and although he will score a few this season is not yet good enough

Lappin tries hard and is a good squad player, we do miss Surnam though

Hoolohan, has been very poor so far imo.

 

To maintain our position we had better hope Jackson gets a chance and proves worth the price tag and a couple of choice players on loan is a must.

[/quote]

I''m glad you''re not manager or we would all be doomed! Although we are currently in 6th place our hopes rest on our substitute striker with no Championship experience!

[TIL 1010 4,737]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Bungay Canary"]did mc namee actually touch the ball yesterday totally over rated[/quote]

He was only on the pitch 5 mins and I didn''t see any of it so can''t comment.

Lappin on the other hand was clean through - one on one with only the keeper to beat and decided that he was going to cut back before puttin in a high cross that went straight across the pitch to nobody and out for a throw I believe.  Chris Martin has had abuse (and yes he is a striker), but at least when in a similar position yesterday he did hit the target and make the Hull keeper make a save.

For me Simon Lappin is totally over-rated and he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously (as was Hoolahan).  Why do so many fans assume that they are good enough to do anything different now?
[/quote]

Smudger you really are an idiot in your obsession with Lappin.In our relegation season he started 4 games(yes just 4) and made 1 appearance as a substitute.

"he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously"..... says Smudger.Care to explain that for me again could you?

 

[/quote]

Bumped for Smudger as he quotes statistics from the game on saturday to argue his point but does not answer the statistic i posted with regard to his outrageous comment concerning Lappin during our relegation season.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Bungay Canary"]did mc namee actually touch the ball yesterday totally over rated[/quote]He was only on the pitch 5 mins and I didn''t see any of it so can''t comment.Lappin on the other hand was clean through - one on one with only the keeper to beat and decided that he was going to cut back before puttin in a high cross that went straight across the pitch to nobody and out for a throw I believe.  Chris Martin has had abuse (and yes he is a striker), but at least when in a similar position yesterday he did hit the target and make the Hull keeper make a save.For me Simon Lappin is totally over-rated and he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously (as was Hoolahan).  Why do so many fans assume that they are good enough to do anything different now?[/quote]

Smudger you really are an idiot in your obsession with Lappin.In our relegation season he started 4 games(yes just 4) and made 1 appearance as a substitute.

"he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously"..... says Smudger.Care to explain that for me again could you?

 

[/quote]

Bumped for Smudger as he quotes statistics from the game on saturday to argue his point but does not answer the statistic i posted with regard to his outrageous comment concerning Lappin during our relegation season.

[/quote]Agreed, although let''s not kid ourselves that Lappin is anything other than a squad player at this level.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]Possession statistics can be a little misleading sometimes as you can build up high percentages by moving the ball around the first two thirds of the pitch but not really doing a lot to threaten. I wasn''t there yesterday, is it possible that this is what has influenced the statistics?[/quote]

Yes. Exactly. Hull kept the ball pretty well through the entire game - I don''t think Bullard ever gave it away - but they kept possession in pretty harmless areas, and we allowed them to be retreating to our own half and only challenging them when they crossed the halfway line.[/quote]

Which is exactly how we beat Leeds United last season at Carrow Road, another game where the oppo had more possession than us.

[Jason Shackells limp Tackle 0]

[quote user="Mr. Chops"][quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Bungay Canary"]did mc namee actually touch the ball yesterday totally over rated[/quote]

He was only on the pitch 5 mins and I didn''t see any of it so can''t comment.

Lappin on the other hand was clean through - one on one with only the keeper to beat and decided that he was going to cut back before puttin in a high cross that went straight across the pitch to nobody and out for a throw I believe.  Chris Martin has had abuse (and yes he is a striker), but at least when in a similar position yesterday he did hit the target and make the Hull keeper make a save.

For me Simon Lappin is totally over-rated and he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously (as was Hoolahan).  Why do so many fans assume that they are good enough to do anything different now?
[/quote]

Smudger you really are an idiot in your obsession with Lappin.In our relegation season he started 4 games(yes just 4) and made 1 appearance as a substitute.

"he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously"..... says Smudger.Care to explain that for me again could you?

 

[/quote]

Bumped for Smudger as he quotes statistics from the game on saturday to argue his point but does not answer the statistic i posted with regard to his outrageous comment concerning Lappin during our relegation season.

[/quote]

Agreed, although let''s not kid ourselves that Lappin is anything other than a squad player at this level.

[/quote]

Sorry, disagree to a large extent. What Lappin does, I think he does well (at this level); sure, he won''t give you step-overs like Mcnamee and has''nt blistering pace but he is defensively solid and is consistent in dead ball situations and mostly has a decent cross on him. I thought that Lappin played very well on Saturday but we all know that Smudger has his ''beef'' with him and clearly, Smudger''s not for turning - with or without facts.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Jason Shackells limp Tackle"][quote user="Mr. Chops"][quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Bungay Canary"]did mc namee actually touch the ball yesterday totally over rated[/quote]He was only on the pitch 5 mins and I didn''t see any of it so can''t comment.Lappin on the other hand was clean through - one on one with only the keeper to beat and decided that he was going to cut back before puttin in a high cross that went straight across the pitch to nobody and out for a throw I believe.  Chris Martin has had abuse (and yes he is a striker), but at least when in a similar position yesterday he did hit the target and make the Hull keeper make a save.For me Simon Lappin is totally over-rated and he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously (as was Hoolahan).  Why do so many fans assume that they are good enough to do anything different now?[/quote]

Smudger you really are an idiot in your obsession with Lappin.In our relegation season he started 4 games(yes just 4) and made 1 appearance as a substitute.

"he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously"..... says Smudger.Care to explain that for me again could you?

 

[/quote]

Bumped for Smudger as he quotes statistics from the game on saturday to argue his point but does not answer the statistic i posted with regard to his outrageous comment concerning Lappin during our relegation season.

[/quote]Agreed, although let''s not kid ourselves that Lappin is anything other than a squad player at this level.[/quote]

Sorry, disagree to a large extent. What Lappin does, I think he does well (at this level); sure, he won''t give you step-overs like Mcnamee and has''nt blistering pace but he is defensively solid and is consistent in dead ball situations and mostly has a decent cross on him. I thought that Lappin played very well on Saturday but we all know that Smudger has his ''beef'' with him and clearly, Smudger''s not for turning - with or without facts.

[/quote]Hmm.   He''s taken his chance, by all accounts, but is only in the first team because Surman is injured.  Which is kind of my point, he''s a back-up player at best.

[Jason Shackells limp Tackle 0]

[quote user="Mr. Chops"][quote user="Jason Shackells limp Tackle"][quote user="Mr. Chops"][quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Bungay Canary"]did mc namee actually touch the ball yesterday totally over rated[/quote]

He was only on the pitch 5 mins and I didn''t see any of it so can''t comment.

Lappin on the other hand was clean through - one on one with only the keeper to beat and decided that he was going to cut back before puttin in a high cross that went straight across the pitch to nobody and out for a throw I believe.  Chris Martin has had abuse (and yes he is a striker), but at least when in a similar position yesterday he did hit the target and make the Hull keeper make a save.

For me Simon Lappin is totally over-rated and he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously (as was Hoolahan).  Why do so many fans assume that they are good enough to do anything different now?
[/quote]

Smudger you really are an idiot in your obsession with Lappin.In our relegation season he started 4 games(yes just 4) and made 1 appearance as a substitute.

"he was a major member of a team who got us relegated from this league previously"..... says Smudger.Care to explain that for me again could you?

 

[/quote]

Bumped for Smudger as he quotes statistics from the game on saturday to argue his point but does not answer the statistic i posted with regard to his outrageous comment concerning Lappin during our relegation season.

[/quote]

Agreed, although let''s not kid ourselves that Lappin is anything other than a squad player at this level.

[/quote]

Sorry, disagree to a large extent. What Lappin does, I think he does well (at this level); sure, he won''t give you step-overs like Mcnamee and has''nt blistering pace but he is defensively solid and is consistent in dead ball situations and mostly has a decent cross on him. I thought that Lappin played very well on Saturday but we all know that Smudger has his ''beef'' with him and clearly, Smudger''s not for turning - with or without facts.

[/quote]

Hmm.   He''s taken his chance, by all accounts, but is only in the first team because Surman is injured.  Which is kind of my point, he''s a back-up player at best.

[/quote]

Hehehe this could get tedious, we''ll see when Surman is fit again..

[southstand 0]

You are being just a little selective with your version of the stats. Add these

Total attempts on goal 11-11

Total corners 9-1

Add to that the crosses fizzing across goal and your picture looks a bit suspect

The corner count is again a City problem - the conversion rate is extremely low from such a high level of corners

Want something to work on to improve - get working on the training ground

I agree with Lambert that the overall performance was good - can''t relate to picking out the midfield as being suspect. I thought that the workrate of Lappin, Hoolahan, Smith and Crofts largely negated the efforts of Ashbee and Bullard.

Sure Hllk had a lot of the ball but the were very rarely a threat untill the last 10 minutes

No I don''t agree with your stats (too much spin) or your view of the players performance

[ca 1]

[quote user="Salahuddin"]

Holt is not going to get us 20 goals plus in the Championship

and a couple of choice players on loan is a must.

[/quote]

 

Agree with these two points

[nutty nigel 7,527]

[quote user="John"]I''ve gone over this however many times in the past at some depth, but in summary i firmly believe if he hadn''t of been injured against Plymouth, we wouldn''t have been relegated.

He played no part in the abysmal run that got us relegated, was shut out for much of the latter part Roeder''s tenure, and our form vastly improved when he was involved.

[/quote]

Agreed. [Y]