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chicken

Shackell - was the decision wrong or right?

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Right. So far as my footballing knowledge goes, if you recieve treatment you have to leave the field of play until the ref allows you back on - the only exception being the keeper.

Now, Shackell actually did recieve treatment, he had cramp and so a fellow player helped him stretch out his leg and clear him of his cramp, he was then also seen by the physio once off the pitch.

So I simply cannot see where there is an issue. I don''t think it stipulates that the treatment has to be by the physio for him to come off otherwise you would just train up one of your players - I believe it is a pretty broad meaning and just treatment in general.

Shackell had to go off - simple, I think he actually annoyed the referee because he tried to slowly walk the longest route possible rather than the 6yards to the by-line which he eventually did on the insistance of the referee.

The long and short of it for me is that their obvious plan from the word go backfired and cost them a goal. I don''t see what the fuss is about or that there is any controvosy at all.

Without being biased, in terms of football and creating chances we clearly deserved to win, there is simply no argument in that. I know some people around me wouldn''t agree with that but Barnsley never dominated us and even in the first half we had more shots on goal than them and the ones they had were mainly from set pieces.

So I for one have no sympathy for such a negative approach with a serious lack of ability in their team to progress the ball into the final third of the opponents half.

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Interesting point you make about treatment in general and that you could easily train a player to assess minor injury concerns. I think it was the right decision to send him off the pitch, if he is injured, needing cramp, laying on the ground, whatever, he should go off the pitch and sort it out/continue to sort it out.

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There''s definitely been a change to this rule for this season. The change is intended to prevent the team from which a player is fouled from being disavantaged by forcing the fouled player off the pitch after being treated.  Not sure how far this new rule takes things, but could impact things.

I can''t say I agree with the importance being attached to Shackell being off the pitch though. I think they''re just clutching at straws really.

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The whole thing was massively influenced by their blatant time wasting.Also, the way he was stretching it looked like he was stretching his achilles, so I''m not so sure it was cramp.

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It was the right decision, after all the Ashton rumours I think a fresh start at a new club was just what he - oh sorry, you were talking about something else.  [:$]

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The ref stopped the game because Shackell went down in a heap. Had he got up and carried on when the ref went to check on him, Robins might have a point, but he stayed down. The referee was therefore absolutely right to ask him to leave the field, regardless of whether he''d had the physio on, simply because he was unable to play on.

As I''ve said elsewhere, does Robins genuinely believe that the ref should have suspended the game until Shack felt like running about again?

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[quote user="morty"]The whole thing was massively influenced by their blatant time wasting.Also, the way he was stretching it looked like he was stretching his achilles, so I''m not so sure it was cramp.[/quote]

Well in my playing experience if it''s a really tight achilles - you don''t risk it, especially the way he pulled up. I have also never seen an achilles stretched out like that.

He was on his back with his leg in the air and the player applying weight to aid in straightening it. You see this far more frequently in cramp cases, you often see this being done to players before extra time in european/international games.

They way he then played on tends to suggest this even more.

So far as I am aware, the rule is only if a player is fouled, how is it unfair if it happens naturally? I mean why stop play and possibly disadvantage the other team just because a player has cramp which can be easily faked, and can be caused by not being match fit, lack of certain things in pre match diet.

As someone else has said - clutching at straws.

I don''t think he faked it - it came at the peak of a sprint and he defenitely did recieve more treatment off the pitch. Just nothing the ref could have done. The player needed to be assessed by the physio as to play on or be subbed and then all the previous time wasting.

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Shackell was in no hurry to get back onto the pitch and his stretching was ridiculous. The physio was stretching properly to brace against the player who was hardly trying. It was bizarre. All Shackell had to do was hold his hand up to come back on....but he didn''t so presumably the ref thought he was receiving prolonged treatment.

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[quote user="chicken"][quote user="morty"]The whole thing was massively influenced by their blatant time wasting.Also, the way he was stretching it looked like he was stretching his achilles, so I''m not so sure it was cramp.[/quote]

Well in my playing experience if it''s a really tight achilles - you don''t risk it, especially the way he pulled up. I have also never seen an achilles stretched out like that.

He was on his back with his leg in the air and the player applying weight to aid in straightening it. You see this far more frequently in cramp cases, you often see this being done to players before extra time in european/international games.

They way he then played on tends to suggest this even more.

So far as I am aware, the rule is only if a player is fouled, how is it unfair if it happens naturally? I mean why stop play and possibly disadvantage the other team just because a player has cramp which can be easily faked, and can be caused by not being match fit, lack of certain things in pre match diet.

As someone else has said - clutching at straws.

I don''t think he faked it - it came at the peak of a sprint and he defenitely did recieve more treatment off the pitch. Just nothing the ref could have done. The player needed to be assessed by the physio as to play on or be subbed and then all the previous time wasting.[/quote]Thats how I was taught to stretch my achilles (by people who know what they are on about) You plant your heel and stretch your calf then just bend the knee slightly and it stretches the achilles.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="chicken"][quote user="morty"]The whole thing was massively influenced by their blatant time wasting.Also, the way he was stretching it looked like he was stretching his achilles, so I''m not so sure it was cramp.[/quote]

Well in my playing experience if it''s a really tight achilles - you don''t risk it, especially the way he pulled up. I have also never seen an achilles stretched out like that.

He was on his back with his leg in the air and the player applying weight to aid in straightening it. You see this far more frequently in cramp cases, you often see this being done to players before extra time in european/international games.

They way he then played on tends to suggest this even more.

So far as I am aware, the rule is only if a player is fouled, how is it unfair if it happens naturally? I mean why stop play and possibly disadvantage the other team just because a player has cramp which can be easily faked, and can be caused by not being match fit, lack of certain things in pre match diet.

As someone else has said - clutching at straws.

I don''t think he faked it - it came at the peak of a sprint and he defenitely did recieve more treatment off the pitch. Just nothing the ref could have done. The player needed to be assessed by the physio as to play on or be subbed and then all the previous time wasting.[/quote]Thats how I was taught to stretch my achilles (by people who know what they are on about) You plant your heel and stretch your calf then just bend the knee slightly and it stretches the achilles.[/quote]

[IMG]http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/cheryl_bites/Christi/Headasplodey.jpg[/IMG]

That''s what was happening to Shackell - typical by the book cramp streth IMHO. Like I said, if your achillies whent to the point that you pulled up that badly, you probably wouldn''t be able to play on. It would be pretty tight and you would run the risk of further damage.

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Well I play on a team with an A&E senior nurse - I should hope he knows what he is doing and it''s precisely what he does with anyone who has cramp.

I could link more images, but you should just really trust me. What Shackell had was cramp - mark my words.

Either way - it wasn''t a foul tackle induced and he required tweatment from his team-mate and his physio. The ref only ushered him along as like with the rest of the team they all took their time.

On a couple of occaisions their players went down and got nothing. Didn''t stop them writhing around the pitch, peek and then get up and sprint when they realised they had the ball again.

So far as I am concerened the three Burnley fans that seem to be holding this stance probably didn''t go to the game and Robins is just taking a page out of old whinge bag Fergie''s and moaning to take the light away from the fact that his players ran out of ideas, and his game plan was to sneak a 1-0 win and yet his team were not good enough to play defencively and actually rode their luck at times.

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Did anyone notice how the game restarted?

When Shackell went down the ball was in the GK arms ie in play. After the ref made Shackell go off the GK restarted the game with a goal kick. At what time did the play stop and restart?

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[quote user="morty"]Lol and yeah, I bet people hobble into A&E all the time with cramp.[;)][/quote]

Sorry Morty but this sounds like the years and years of training etc that they get doesn''t cover basic stuff?!!!

And it''s not a matter of whose dad is better than who''s. Mine sadly passed away in the not too distant past.

I know we all like to think we know the facts etc. A warm up for the achilles by the way is the one you see them do at the begining of the game where they they push against each other. You don''t see it so much these days but that is the one typically used in a warm up and to try and stretch it out a bit.

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[quote user="chicken"][quote user="morty"]Lol and yeah, I bet people hobble into A&E all the time with cramp.[;)][/quote]

Sorry Morty but this sounds like the years and years of training etc that they get doesn''t cover basic stuff?!!!

And it''s not a matter of whose dad is better than who''s. Mine sadly passed away in the not too distant past.

I know we all like to think we know the facts etc. A warm up for the achilles by the way is the one you see them do at the begining of the game where they they push against each other. You don''t see it so much these days but that is the one typically used in a warm up and to try and stretch it out a bit.[/quote]Yeah sure mate.The stretching exercises taught to me by the physical rehabilitation instructors at Headley court (you may have seen it a bit in the news) are obviously complete rubbish, what do they know eh?[:)]

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[quote user="Beauseant"]

As I''ve said elsewhere, does Robins genuinely believe that the ref should have suspended the game until Shack felt like running about again?

[/quote]You would all still be at CR now, and for the foreseeable future, if that was the case [;)]

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="chicken"][quote user="morty"]Lol and yeah, I bet people hobble into A&E all the time with cramp.[;)][/quote]

Sorry Morty but this sounds like the years and years of training etc that they get doesn''t cover basic stuff?!!!

And it''s not a matter of whose dad is better than who''s. Mine sadly passed away in the not too distant past.

I know we all like to think we know the facts etc. A warm up for the achilles by the way is the one you see them do at the begining of the game where they they push against each other. You don''t see it so much these days but that is the one typically used in a warm up and to try and stretch it out a bit.[/quote]Yeah sure mate.The stretching exercises taught to me by the physical rehabilitation instructors at Headley court (you may have seen it a bit in the news) are obviously complete rubbish, what do they know eh?[:)][/quote]

Not saying that they are talking rubbish - but rehabilitation is not quite the same as recovering from injury on a football pitch. For starters rehab is about rebuilding after an injury so it works on building up strengh in the specific location of the injury. Something like a strain could be jogged off where as something like possible tendon damage results in players on crutches as you are meant to take the weight off them initially.

I just know that if your achilles goes like that in a match you wont take further part in it and it takes around 2-10 days just for a minor tweak to clear up, not five minutes.

I also know by the way he went down and reacted, and by the subsequent communication between him and the player and then him and the physio that it was cramp.

I am not trying to get one upmanship on anyone here, I just think the way you have criticised what I have said and ripped the piss a little OTT.

Until now I had agreed with most of your posts and thought the tone more jovial than arogant. Seems I may have been wrong.

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Shack attack - it''s up on the BBC wesite now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_div_1/8977949.stm

He states that Shackell didn''t need, nor did he recieve any treatment. Which is actually not at all true. He didn''t recieve any from the physio whilst on the pitch but as I stated earlier I am not sure that the rules state that it has to be a physio.

Sounds like a very bitter man. He also suggests that they had more chances than us to win the game, that we got all of the big decisions and that they had two big penalty shouts?!!!

It is interesting hearing a different point of view but in this case it''s like they are talking about a completely different match, especially when you compare what they are saying to the stats at the bottom of the page.

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[quote user="chicken"][quote user="morty"][quote user="chicken"][quote user="morty"]Lol and yeah, I bet people hobble into A&E all the time with cramp.[;)][/quote]

Sorry Morty but this sounds like the years and years of training etc that they get doesn''t cover basic stuff?!!!

And it''s not a matter of whose dad is better than who''s. Mine sadly passed away in the not too distant past.

I know we all like to think we know the facts etc. A warm up for the achilles by the way is the one you see them do at the begining of the game where they they push against each other. You don''t see it so much these days but that is the one typically used in a warm up and to try and stretch it out a bit.[/quote]Yeah sure mate.The stretching exercises taught to me by the physical rehabilitation instructors at Headley court (you may have seen it a bit in the news) are obviously complete rubbish, what do they know eh?[:)][/quote]

Not saying that they are talking rubbish - but rehabilitation is not quite the same as recovering from injury on a football pitch. For starters rehab is about rebuilding after an injury so it works on building up strengh in the specific location of the injury. Something like a strain could be jogged off where as something like possible tendon damage results in players on crutches as you are meant to take the weight off them initially.

I just know that if your achilles goes like that in a match you wont take further part in it and it takes around 2-10 days just for a minor tweak to clear up, not five minutes.

I also know by the way he went down and reacted, and by the subsequent communication between him and the player and then him and the physio that it was cramp.

I am not trying to get one upmanship on anyone here, I just think the way you have criticised what I have said and ripped the piss a little OTT.

Until now I had agreed with most of your posts and thought the tone more jovial than arogant. Seems I may have been wrong.[/quote]I have had a tight achilles for years, and I stretch it off exactly the same way Shackell stretched his off on the sidelines when he came off.You are wrong. And the fact that you even question the expertise of the staff at Headley court, world leaders in sports science, injury rehabilitation and sports physiology is laughable. Seriously mate, I know what I''m talking about.

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http://www.pinkun.com/content/pinkun/norwich-city/story.aspx?brand=PINKUNOnline&category=Norwich&tBrand=PINKUNOnline&tCategory=xDefault&itemid=NOED13%20Sep%202010%2011%3A07%3A42%3A610

''Ex-Canary defender Jason Shackell, suffering from cramp, was told to leave the field by official Gavin Ward. During his absence, Shackell''s fellow centre-back, Stephen Foster, headed into his own net to put City back on terms at 1-1.''

Was not rubbishing any of their work actually, not what you have said. I actually said that rehabilitation and stretches to maintain strength and to avoid stiffness are different to treatment applied straight after an injury occurs.

And from the off I was very much talking about what stretches he was doing ON the pitch with the aid of his team mate - which as I have said is a very typical way to try and clear up cramp. When standing it probably does look very similar to an achilles stretch. But as I have said, his reaction and hand gestures etc suggested cramp.

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The fact is he most likely felt tightness toward the bottom of his calf that his team mate presumed was cramp, but when he was on the sidelines the physio was helping him stretch off his achilles, as quite often if you have suffered an injury it will always stay tight.But you feel free to have the last word though, I''m off to bed.[:)] 

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[quote user="Loopzilla"]

Morty, have another one on me!

[img]http://www.beernbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ArrogantBastard.jpg[/img]

[/quote]I''m not arrogant. I''m just right.[:)]

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Loopzilla"]

Morty, have another one on me!

[img]http://www.beernbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ArrogantBastard.jpg[/img]

[/quote]

I''m not arrogant. I''m just right.

[:)]
[/quote]

LOL! I have a friend just like you, he''s taught me everything he doesn''t know! ;)

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[quote user="Loopzilla"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Loopzilla"]

Morty, have another one on me!

[img]http://www.beernbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ArrogantBastard.jpg[/img]

[/quote]I''m not arrogant. I''m just right.[:)][/quote]

LOL! I have a friend just like you, he''s taught me everything he doesn''t know! ;)

[/quote]I am actually right though.Friend? Yeah, sure.[;)]

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Loopzilla"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Loopzilla"]

Morty, have another one on me!

[img]http://www.beernbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ArrogantBastard.jpg[/img]

[/quote]

I''m not arrogant. I''m just right.

[:)]
[/quote]

LOL! I have a friend just like you, he''s taught me everything he doesn''t know! ;)

[/quote]

I am actually right though.

Friend? Yeah, sure.

[;)]
[/quote]

Yeah, sure.

OK, he may be imaginary, but I like him. And anyway, it''s the thought that counts. [*-)]

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