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yellowasanything

Wickham vs Martin debate

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[quote user="portmanking"]Put it this way - I don''t see Wickham being forced to drop down to League Two to prove himself before gaining an opportunity at Championship level.Wickham was the star of the U19 European Championships and will go on to partner Rooney within 3-4 years.We are appreciating him fully while we''ve got him.[/quote]Just remember who dropped him down to League two??

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[quote user="Mike "]

 Martin is having an excellent season. Both good players.

[/quote]

He''s doing alright this season. He''s had some good games but he''s also had some poor ones.

Hopefully with 2 home games coming up he''ll be able to find the back of the net, otherwise his scoring record isn''t going to look too great.

Good player, though.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

[quote user="NCFC4LIFE"][quote user="Canary_on_the Trent"]21 year old who has scored goals at a lower level or a 17 year old who is making his mark at Championship level, was the best player of the tournament at the European U17 Championships and has every big club chasing him?I am a big Chris Martin fan but Wickham is 1 of the best England has had in a while.[/quote]What proof do you have for this...... He has scored 4 goals in 28 apps for the scum..........I will rate him once he has proven his worth, not off the back of that T*AT Keane''s word!!!Martin is a rough diamond and has all the qualities of progressing to be a top class striker, not there yet but i have more confiedence he will over Wickham and the reason behind this is Lambert''s guidence!!!OTBC[/quote]

Keane is talking him down, it is pretty much everyone else saying Wickham is the real deal.

Anyone who saw the Ipswich v Cardiff game will tell you that Wickham was the most exciting player on the pitch and for someone of only 17 looks the real deal. I know we all love Chris M (apart from the people who say he is lazy) but the hype around Wickham isn''t an accident, he could be an excellent player.

If Chris Martin played for Ipswich and Wickham played here this wouldn''t even be a discussion.

[/quote]Keane Sold Walters ahead of Wickham so that they could keep him and he was open about this...... hardly playing him down!?!?!

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]John....You seemed to add bits to what i said as well.....unless you can find a quote me saying Martin is better than Wickham....[/quote][^o)][quote user="Gingerpele"]Nice to know you prefer Ipswich players...go

support them if you love Wickham so much.....

There are many many many cases of media hype around players, such as

Francis Jeffers, David Bently etc etc (freddy Adu as well, remember him?

at 14/15 he was being hyped by everyone as a wonder player, was going

to join Madrid/Manchester etc...where is he now? on loan to a greek

team, and not even in the USA squad....)

Hype doesn''t make a good player, and i would much rather back Norwich

player than Ipswich....

I kind of hope Wickham does turn out to be as good as he is mean''t to

be, and perform for England in a World cup/Euros and maybe we can win

one.....

But i seriously think, If Martin had sorted out his attitude/effort out

in his first 1/2 seasons, he would have never been in League Two, maybe

we wouldn''t have been in League One...his progress was seriously

interfered with, mainly his own doing, but Roeder certainly didn''t

help.....

I can''t actually believe the attitude of Norwich fans when it comes to

Wickham....[/quote][quote user="John"][quote user="Gingerpele"]Nice to know you prefer

Ipswich players...go support them if you love Wickham so much.....

[/quote]And by the same token Ian Henderson is, and always has

been 10 times the player of Darren Bent, and anyone who happens to argue

any different is a certified Ipswich fan.I''m hoping my credentials as a Norwich fan now suffice?[/quote]-[quote user="Gingerpele"]My argument wasn''t about who was better......I

have not said Chris Martin is better than Wickham....I have said he has a

better Championship record (which he has/did), i just find it amazing

that people seem to be saying Wickham is amazing, and Martin is just

some piece of crap we picked up from the side of the road....

Wickham has had barley any experience yet, has only started 10 or so

games in the real leagues (Internationals at any level, especially

youth, and not really accurate at all, look at Messi, for Barcelona is

probably one if not the best player ever, yet can''t do it for Argentina,

with even more freedom than he gets with Barca....)

In two seasons, if Wickham has kept his performances to the same level,

then yes, come back and say how good he is, but their is very little

evidence for how well he will do, comparing players isn''t fair either,

even going on the goal scoring records, i''m fairly sure, Martins first

season, he was up front on his own, and although he probably thought he

was the best footballer ever, it must have been very very hard, playing

that role at the age he was....[/quote][quote user="John"][quote user="Gingerpele"]... and Martin is just some

piece of crap we picked up from the side of the road.... [/quote]I think i missed that bit?[/quote]

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What?

Your post about Ian Henderson, is quite clearly insinuating that i am saying all Norwich players are better,

tbh, i can''t be bothered any more, if you want to rate Ipswich players above Norwich ones, fine, go ahead...

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Calm down mate, there''s being a supporter then there''s being a fool. Wickham probably is better than Martin if you look at it in an unbiased way, the lad''s strong, is good with ball at his feet and he can finish. Chris Martin''s best bet of playing in the PL in the next couple season''s is if we manage promotion... Wickham will be there by then regardless how Ipswich do.

It''s not a case of he''s Ipswich we can''t rate him, it''s case of admiring a talented young player.

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Sonny get your head out of your arse.For starters both players are of different moulds and different stages in development so its tough to compare who is better persee. But at 17 Wickham has far better physical and mental attributes than Chrissy Martin. Perhaps Martin is a better finisher but I believe Wickham will be an important team player who will pick up games and help to win them, prolific or not. Chrissy however is still bit of a maverick and as we have seen, he has had attitude problems in the past. At 17 Wickham is still very young and has plenty of time to develop the techniques of finishing etc. Whether Martin can surpass his tally and ability levels any further i dont know but at 17 Wickham is certainly a better prospect than Martin. Even for the future.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]What?

Your post about Ian Henderson, is quite clearly insinuating that i am saying all Norwich players are better,

tbh, i can''t be bothered any more, if you want to rate Ipswich players above Norwich ones, fine, go ahead...[/quote]I''m sorry if you can''t be bothered, but you quite clearly suggested that if Trent happens to rate some Ipswich players higher than Norwich players it gives reason to assume he''d be better off supporting The Binners.As a more broad example, i''d happily admit Manchester United play host to a variety of talents, that in the general scheme of things are light years ahead of any player we have here. Though i''m hardly looking to convert to the red & white side of Manchester because of it.

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I saw Wickham on the FLS last Saturday; other than that I''ve never seen him play. I''d be interested in what Ipswich fans (or City fans who''ve seen a lot of him) think about the following:

After the World Cup, there was obviously lots of talk about our hopeless national team and where the next generation was coming from. Wickham''s name was mentioned and his record in the England youth sides. But I also heard it argued that he summed up England''s problems as a footballing nation, that his success at youth levels was largely down to his physical stature rather than footballing ability, and that he would not be someone who would make it at the very highest level. Do people think that''s fair?

My view, based on about ten minutes of highlights is that he is clearly a handful, strong and with a bit of pace. Cardiff struggled to handle him. But he lacked a bit of composure in front of goal. The save that they were raving about from Marshall seemed to me to be a poor finish.

Chris Martin seems the opposite. He''s a much more intelligent player than people give him credit for (and a much more intelligent player than he is a drinker...) He drops off the front well, and uses the ball well. His lack of pace really hampers him, and increasingly he seems to be a second striker rather than a centre-forward. That said, he is a lot stronger this season and his brilliant touch to score the winner against Barnsley showed all the composure that Wickham lacked when one-on-one with Marshall. I think he''s going to be a very good Championship player - I don''t ever see him making it in the Premiership. Wickham is a mystery to me.

This is really not meant to be a yellow-tinted view of things. I''d be really interested to hear if any Ipswich fans have views on any of the above. And then I hope we stuff you in the derby[;)]

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I saw Wickham a lot on the FLS last season and he''s a clever player who does have good ability with the ball at his feet and does know where the back of the net is. One of his goals towards the end of last season was that of a player who can play at a higher level than this.

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Why aren''t I allowed my opinion?

I have not said Wickham is rubbish, I have not said he will be rubbish, I have said (or at least intended too), he is only young, he has not played much yet, he is supposedly fully developed physically, so really, won''t be improving too much on that side, which means it all down to his technical and mental ability, and how does anyone know how much further he will go, maybe he is as good as he will get? There have been 3/4 names of other players hugely bigged up (Bentley, Stead and Jeffers...), who have not played up to their potential, along with many others, but then their are the players who do get better and better after coming onto the scene as a superstar (Messi and Rooney for example...), so you can predict Wickhams development, or you can leave him too it, know one on here is an expert, even experts can get it wrong (Freddy Adu....I don''t remember very many people saying he would turn out the way he has...)...

And also, why have people been watching all of Wickam''s games? watching a few highlights really doesn''t show the full player, do you think highlights show how well players like Drury and Lappin perform?

So unless you have watched Wickham for full 90 mins often, then its also a bit silly commenting on how good he is.....I have only seen bits of him, so can''t say what his full game is like, but i can say that he may not turn out as good as he is expected to, and i prefer Chris Martin....

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and MIA, can you not use my name on the forum? Brendo, Banana, Dogger, WAY and probably a few others know my name, but don''t use it, I don''t have it as my username for a reason....

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Why do we have to pick one or is it a case of everything seems to be going well at the moment i know lets have a dig at chrissy for not being as exciting at 17 as wickham is. absolute drivel and a waste of time

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I think bernie also has a point....Why are we comparing Wickham and Martin, and before Korey and Wickham...They are different players (why did you mention that MIA? I had already said that hadn''t I?), playing in different teams, in different formations/game plans, for different managers, with different players....Obviously comparisons have to be made some times, otherwise players could not be rated and ranked, but saying, i would rather have Wickham or Martin (or Wickham or Smith...) doesn''t really work, because then you might as well go away and say, oh Rooney is better than Martin lets have him, and pick out all the ways in which Rooney is better than Martin....

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I don''t really see why there has to be a comparison.

Ginge, your comments to begin with were basically saying ''if you think an Ipswich player is better then why don''t you go support Ipswich''.  That''s not what people were saying.  Everyone can see that Wickham is a special talent, and you do not get hype in the media for no reason.  Chrissy Martin has never reached those levels of hype outside of Norfolk, and no disrepect to him, I doubt he ever will.  It may be a shock to you but the majority of Ipswich fans are naive, they know that Wickham probably won''t hang around for too long, and want to get as much out of his as possible.

In my opinion there is no comparison, Wickham will be the better player if he keeps progressing the way he is.  Things happen to young players, he may get injured etc, but at the moment he is going to be, by all accounts, a key player for England in the future.  Will Martin?  No I don''t think so, but it doesn''t mean that he is not a good player.

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[quote user="ncfcstar"]

I don''t really see why there has to be a comparison.

Ginge, your comments to begin with were basically saying ''if you think an Ipswich player is better then why don''t you go support Ipswich''.  That''s not what people were saying.  Everyone can see that Wickham is a special talent, and you do not get hype in the media for no reason.  Chrissy Martin has never reached those levels of hype outside of Norfolk, and no disrepect to him, I doubt he ever will.  It may be a shock to you but the majority of Ipswich fans are naive, they know that Wickham probably won''t hang around for too long, and want to get as much out of his as possible.

In my opinion there is no comparison, Wickham will be the better player if he keeps progressing the way he is.  Things happen to young players, he may get injured etc, but at the moment he is going to be, by all accounts, a key player for England in the future.  Will Martin?  No I don''t think so, but it doesn''t mean that he is not a good player.

[/quote]

Ha sorry, that should read aren''t naive....freudian slip!

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I know, i always get a bit OTT when posting online......But i really don''t like what seems like unnecessary comparison, pretty much slaggin Chris Martin off, saying he''s not as good, which may not have been peoples intentions, but when ever you compare someone you believe to be better, your pretty much saying one of them isn''t good (well not all the time, if you compare Messi and Ronaldo, most people would agree they are both brilliant footballers, but Ronaldo is a diving, cheating arrogant tw*t :P)

So could we maybe have a new forum rule, that Wickham will not be compared to any Norwich players, or have posted choosing between Wickham and Korey Smith etc.....because it is pointless, Wickham does have talent, but hes only 17, at a different club, and although people may want to track him from this age, i think i will wait until hes playing for England to take too much interest...

(also whats Victor Moses up to :P this time last season, he was the next best thing...is he still on the bench for Wigan, or starting now?)

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]I know, i always get a bit OTT when posting online......But i really don''t like what seems like unnecessary comparison, pretty much slaggin Chris Martin off, saying he''s not as good, which may not have been peoples intentions, [/quote]I wasn''t putting Martin down at all, he''s a superb young player and if you''ve ever read one of my posts regarding him you''ll always see me praising him but it''s unfair comparing him to Wickham who is 4 years his junior and potentially 1 of the great players of his generation.

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[quote]
TOULON TOURNAMENT FINAL

15/06/1993, Toulon, Stade Mayol

FRANCE U21 0-1 ENGLAND U21 [HT 0-0]

Scorer: Gary Flitcroft 55''

ENGLAND U21:

Paul Gerrard [Oldham Athletic] [9/0]

Neal Ardley [Wimbledon] [7/0]

Bryan Small [Aston Villa] [10/0]

Andrew Awford [Portsmouth] [8/0]

Richard Hall [Southampton] [11/2]

Chris Sutton [Norwich City] [9/0]

Gary Flitcroft [Manchester City] [8/2]

Michael Sheron [Manchester City] [13/4]

Nicky Summerbee [Swindon Town] [3/1]

Jamie Redknapp [Liverpool] [8/1]

Darren Anderton [Tottenham Hotspurs] [10/4]

[/quote]To get this into context, take a look at the England U-21 Toulon Tournament winning team, who played Brazil, France, Portugal, Czech Republic and Scotland. (I think Chris Sutton was playing at centre back). Redknapp and Anderton had international careers, Sutton was a great Premiership player, and the rest ended up being very mediocre.One of the complaints about our U-17 & U-19 teams is that we simply pick players who are big for their age. Hence Rossi Jarvis going from U-19 to non-league in the space of two seasons.

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[quote user="Canary_on_the Trent"][quote user="Gingerpele"]I know, i always get a bit OTT when posting online......But i really don''t like what seems like unnecessary comparison, pretty much slaggin Chris Martin off, saying he''s not as good, which may not have been peoples intentions, [/quote]I wasn''t putting Martin down at all, he''s a superb young player and if you''ve ever read one of my posts regarding him you''ll always see me praising him but it''s unfair comparing him to Wickham who is 4 years his junior and potentially 1 of the great players of his generation. [/quote]PMSL........ What has he actually done?! Your referring to this player like a Rooney or Milner, i.e. bursting on the scene in the Premier League scoring goals against the likes of Arseanl or Sunderland.....I must point out again that Connor Wickham has scored four first team goals for Ipshit, against teams such as Scunthorpe and Derby...... no doubting he is a talent and will be a good player but no need to offer hype the palyer, i also saw the game against Cardiff on the weekend did he score?????Chrissy Martin has both the potential and the opportunity to have a better career than him. 

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[quote user="Icecream Snow"][quote]
TOULON TOURNAMENT FINAL

15/06/1993, Toulon, Stade Mayol

FRANCE U21 0-1 ENGLAND U21 [HT 0-0]

Scorer: Gary Flitcroft 55''

ENGLAND U21:

Paul Gerrard [Oldham Athletic] [9/0]

Neal Ardley [Wimbledon] [7/0]

Bryan Small [Aston Villa] [10/0]

Andrew Awford [Portsmouth] [8/0]

Richard Hall [Southampton] [11/2]

Chris Sutton [Norwich City] [9/0]

Gary Flitcroft [Manchester City] [8/2]

Michael Sheron [Manchester City] [13/4]

Nicky Summerbee [Swindon Town] [3/1]

Jamie Redknapp [Liverpool] [8/1]

Darren Anderton [Tottenham Hotspurs] [10/4]

[/quote]To get this into context, take a look at the England U-21 Toulon Tournament winning team, who played Brazil, France, Portugal, Czech Republic and Scotland. (I think Chris Sutton was playing at centre back). Redknapp and Anderton had international careers, Sutton was a great Premiership player, and the rest ended up being very mediocre.One of the complaints about our U-17 & U-19 teams is that we simply pick players who are big for their age. Hence Rossi Jarvis going from U-19 to non-league in the space of two seasons.[/quote]Good points but 8 of that side had successful careers in the Premier League and as you say 3 of them played for England. Connor Wickham is already proving himself in the 2nd tier and was clearly the best player in his England side. If he doesn''t make it as at least a Premier League footballer i''ll be very, very surprised.

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Wickham is a fat a*se - will be crocked by the time he''s 21.  As others have mentioned his reputation up to now has been governed by his physique, althuogh accepted he can play a bit.  This will help the Scum this year, although Keano will cock it up for them at some point (probably when Everton want to relace Moyes).

As someone else said Wickham already has the physique of Dean Ashton (at 17!) and this will be his downfall as his knees and joints give in.  As his name has been mentioned in this thread so far, same will happen to Rooney - watch him put on the pounds hereon in - he''s shot his bolt now, will never be a global superstar, but will be a good premier player (although a sensational championship or below player).

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