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Mr Carrow in the City Stand

Worthy's forgotten men ?

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How many players have at some time or another been ''frozen'' out by Worthington ?  Although club discipline is obviously important is this always the best way to go about it ? The Bentley ''fallout'' story today seems childish in the extreme and would almost be a joke if most grown up businesses operated that way with their employees.

Just a few names come to mind as to players who really never got a look in after some alleged falling out with the manager;

Libbra, Anselin, Jackson, Kenton, Briggs, Emblem, Rivers,  Easton, all fell out of favour for one reason or another and left. Several were brought to the club by Worthy in the first place but none except maybe Kenton improved under him.

Mackay gave good service but suddenly his face didn''t fit too and he left under a cloud in a deal done when he was away from the club on International duty.

Some current players seem maybe to be slowly but surely going the same way - -  Bentley, Docherty,  Brennan, Mulryne, Jarvis, Helveg, Gallagher, Saffri can''t get a kick at present. For some their careers seem to be going backwards and they''re very lucky if they get picked to sit on the bench for a team second bottom.

Young players like Shackell and Jarvis get painfully few selections in the team or even the squad and limited opportunities to progress here at present and yet the youth programme should be the ong term future of the club. They ought to be more regularly involved now at their ages surely ?

All in all it makes me wonder about some aspects of man management, selection and coaching. I can see Nigel is probably a strong disciplinarian but he sometimes looks very inflexible and stubborn with some players at times. It seems to me we are a club who have to try to get the best out of every player in a small squad. Is this really happening at present  or are some rapidly becoming the forgotten men of Colney ?

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The other view is that its a sign of strong management. Nigel does (Holt apart) tend to drop people who don''t perform. Sometimes they respond, other times they don''t and we don''t know what really goes on the other 6 days a week. Last season Nigel dropped McVeigh for his workrate- he knuckled down and got back into the team. He also got Kenton sorted until Kenton started playing silly buggers when he thought other teams were interested in him. Lets see what happens with Bentley if he plays on Sat. Finally, Jonson is back in now after a poor start. So unlike many managers I don''t think Nigel locks the door when he leaves people out- its just hard then to get back in if the other guy plays well.

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Good topic, Mr Carrow.

As ever there will be divergent views as to whether this all points to "strong" management or "strange" management.

For my part there are a few too many examples of Mr W falling out with players for it to be "strong" management - for the life of me I just don''t get the policy of signing players then apparently freezing them out - hence I am in the "strange" management camp

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But is he actually freezing players out? Worthy picks the team that he thinks will win us games - just as every other manager in the world does. Just because Alex Ferguson doesn''t pick Alan Smith, does that mean he''s "freezing him out"? No, of course it doesn''t - he believes that Rooney and Van Nistelrooy are the best players to play up front. Also, in fairness to Worthy, players like Emblem would have been more involved, but for injury. By the time he regained fitness, we had Holt and Mulryne as an effective unit in midfield. So, rather than wasting Emblen''s career and wasting valuable resources on the wage bill, the club let him go.

At the end of the day, we can only put 11 players on the pitch, so Worthy will always be "freezing someone out". The fact is that Bentley is obviously gifted, but his attitude suggests that he needs to be brought down a peg or two. This training incident, by coincidence, happened when Bentley wasn''t playing well, so hopefully now he''ll double his efforts in training and on the pitch to get some form. I think it''s good management. Players step out of line, they always do - it''s how management deals with them that matters, and I think that having successfully turned us from relegation candidates in Division One into a Premiership side again for the first time in 9 years, that Worthy is doing things the right way.

Would you rather Worthy let them all muck around and get too big for their boots? Let''s be fair here - that''s what''s happened to Newcastle over the last couple of years and they''re hardly a happy club at the moment, are they? The fact is that with the talent they have in their side, they should be doing an awful lot better than they are.

Personally, I''m a firm believer that no player is bigger than the club, and so I''m more than happy for Worthy to keep a firm discipline over anyone who thinks otherwise.

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Can you tell me any of Aston Villa''s reserves? Or Southampton? Or Bolton? Why do we not see them, week in week out?? They can hardly get a kick these days.Have they been "frozen out" orARE THEY JUST THE RESERVES?!?!?Easton, Rivers, Emblem & Libbra were "frozen out" because they were crap. Jackson because he was on 15k a week. Kenton because he was a t*ss*r, phoning in sick TWICE on the day of the game.As for Malks, who really thought he would get a game in the Prem? I didn''t.Maybe there isn''t a policy of signing players and then freezing them out. Maybe Worthy buys players that aren''t good enough (more of a topic of discussion I feel) and then realises they are not better than what he already has.

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How many of the frozen out players have gone on to prove Worthington wrong? Re Bentley, Safri, Doherty, Helveg and Jarvis, its too early to say they are no longer part of his plans. I watched the reserves last night as usual, and i thought that in the case of Safri, doherty and even Jarvis, that these are highly motivated players, clearly intent on gaining a place in the first team. Safri was strong in the tackle, and although heavily challenged on a couple of occasions, reacted well and just got up and on with the game, his passing was incisive and he looked a class player. Im hopeful that he will be back in the reckoning at the earliest possible opportunity. Doherty, although the recipient of a lot of stick, looked an accomplished centre half, and was predictably strong in the air, and marshalled the younger players well.. ditto Safri. Jarvis looked sharper than on a number of previous occasions. These players clearly beleive they are still in the set up, and in particular, in the case of Safri, his promotion to a first team berth cant come soon enough. He is simply the best in his rle at the club.

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I have to agree with the latter posters in this - most of the names mentioned have players in their positions that are simply better than them - this is best illustrated by Brennan; I have no doubt that Drury is the more complete left back and feel McVeigh, Bentley and Hux are all better alternatives in left midfield.

When the chance arose Brennan came in a showed that he can be relied upon 100% - its just that he is a good squad member and its a shame that Worthy thought Drury was fit on Sat, or alternatively thought (or was told by Drury?) he was fit enough to be better than Brennan - he was wrong.

Excellent feedback on last nights game Charlies Dad. Good to see that the Doc had a good game and is competing for a place in his prefered position. Interesting comments on organising the defence - are Charlie and Flem taking note? Same goes for Safri and Jarvis who I hope we will see more of quite shortly.

OTBC

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I agree with Bananaman, I don''t think Worthy ''freezes players out'' unless they deserve it e.g. easton and rivers. However, he does seem to buy quite a few shoddy players and then leave them out of the team. I expect that this is due to the huge financial constraints he has to operate under, rather than scouting and bad management. Let''s not forget that Worthy is not perfect, but has had no money to spend. Even WBA and Palace have splashed the cash.

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Thanks ZLF, the reserves deserve support, and as  season ticket holders, we dont pay to get in, so its a good night out, the players talk to the kids and sign autographs etc. and you can see the action close up, without the tension of the First team games!!! Nigel Worthington hasnt missed a game yet to my knowledge, he''s easy to pick uout in the directors box, opposite us in the new stand, so he must be taking note of performances. This in itself will motivate the players. Look out for Howell and Willis as well, incidentally, tiny both of them but great fun to watch.   

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Yes it was good news to see Charlies Dad''s reports on the reserves - especially the bit about Mr W being in attendance.  Right now we need some of the fringe /forgotten players to come through to give us some options in the first team squad.

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[quote]How many of the frozen out players have gone on to prove Worthington wrong? Re Bentley, Safri, Doherty, Helveg and Jarvis, its too early to say they are no longer part of his plans. I watched the rese...[/quote]

Well there''s Jackson captaining the team at the top of the Championship while we still look for a defender that can pass or play the ball out of defence rather than just hoof it.

Higginbottom if memory serves was Bradford''s Player of the Season last year - not a huge recommendation you may say but kinda makes you wonder why he could barely get a game before being shipped out.

Rivers both before and since playing for us is scoring goals consistently, something he never did for us, possibly because we rarely played him in his proper position.

More recently Malky. As Dickov rose above our defence on Saturday, just as Ferguson did the other week I suspect I wasnt the only one to feel vindicated in my original reaction that getting rid was another very poor decision.

But as someone has already said perhaps the more important question is not why players leave but why since NW has been in charge have some many players been signed and then barely figured?

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Mr.Carrow has a point here and I don''t think the explanation is as straightforward as "libbra was crap", because fundamentally he wasn''t !!! Anyone who saw his debut against Man City and subsequent games would tell you that.  The reason his performances declined was because Nigel killed his natural game. Libbra was a flair player, a forward who attacked the goal, or would unlock a defence with one flick ro moment of brilliance. Nige made him play with his back to goal and made the guy play against every instinct he had. There was the famous quote where Libbra said Nige allowed him two flicks per game.

I also disagree to some extent about whether Nige does drop out of form players. How long did we perservere with Donkerty up front??? A tactic we STILL haven''t got out of our system, I mean bringing him on as a sub against Everton??? was that really going to work?

Decisions have to be made regarding Mulryne, Safri, McVeigh - are they good enough or not. Heading towards a third of the season gone, no win, second bottom, yet these players have barely featured. So are they not good enough to get in a struggling team or is there another explanation?

Meanwhile Henderson and Jarvis are lacking opportunities to improve themselves. Both should have been loaned out at the season start.

Glad thats sorted that out then !!!

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Perhaps I am off topic here, but Malky''s face obviously didn''t fit in the Premiership but, I for one, think they miss him. He motivated the team last season and they haven''t replaced that role on the pitch.

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Yes, but if Libbra was such a talent, how come he hasn''t gone on to set the world alight since he left us? On his day, Libbra could be excellent, but he wasn''t consistant enough. Let''s be honest - he tried plenty of tricks and flicks during games but very rarely did they come off. So what was wrong with Worthington trying to change his game and make him a more effective player?

As for Matt Jackson - he might be able to pass the ball, but does anyone else remember how poor we were defensively when he played for us? Higginbotham got player of the season at relegated shambles Bradford last year - wow. The fact is, all these players (plus Rivers) weren''t going to be up to scratch in the Prem as they weren''t up to scratch for us in Division One. You can say that it''s poor man-management, but Worthy has taken other players and made them good players (Drury, McKenzie), whilst also turning round the careers of others (Huckerby, Svensson). It could also be that these players just simply aren''t good enough. Yes, it could just be as simple as that.

As for Malky - you may have a point. I think rather than Saturday being the best vindication for not selling him (anyone should be able to beat Paul Dickov in the air), we should look back to the Everton game and the winning header that Duncan Ferguson scored. He''s the kind of player that we needed Malky for and had Malky still been here I don''t think Ferguson whould have won that header.

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I have never bought the argument of "well, what has the player done since he left" as an acid test of how good someone is.

Robert Fleck was a legendary player, and what happened to him after he left.  Kevin Drinkell, Jon Newsome, Neil Adams, David Phillips are just a few others.  The point is how good were they when they played at Carrow Rd.

There''s nothing wrong with trying to improve a player''s game, but what Nige was doing was the equivalent of today telling Huckerby to hold the ball and play with his back to goal, that''s not improving someone''s game, that''s going against everything that the player stands for.  I struggle to believe that Wenger tells Henry not to try creative flicks. I sort of get the impression Henry is told to go and play his natural game.

As for Malky, personally he wouldn''t have been a first choice centre half in the premiership but I''d rather have him in the squad than not (I can''t believe his wages were particularly high). Would certainly have been my first choice against Ferguson.

Has Svensson''s career been turned around? He''s only been a starter for the past 3 weeks, he couldn''t get in the team previously because a centre-half was our centre-forward. I doubt he''d thank Nige for that.

Obviously some players were bought to do first division jobs - Easton, Heckingbottom etc. but if we genuinely have no-one that can improve the current team in our reserves or that even deserves a chance, then either why were they bought in the first place or why are they still here, why were they not traded in the pre-season?

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Yay

Some really intelligent posts from Creative Midfielder and Camberwick Green. Whilst they may have divergent opinions from many of the posters they have articulated a groundswell of opinion that is out there. I am sue that I am not the only one who agrees with much that they have said - keep it coming

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It''s all well and good to say who should and shouldn''t be here, but Nigel is the boss and he is never going to please everyone, all of the time. I want Helveg in the team, but he''s not going to change Edworthy!I believe that the players we have let go were not good enough to be here, INCLUDING Malky.Just because he would have won some headers wouldn''t have stopped him getting ROASTED by Defoe, Bellamy, Henry, Ricardo Fuller (just like he did for Preston last year) and everyone would be on here clamouring for him to be dropped!! Just like last year, remember? In the first division?It''s very simple to say Mullers, McVeigh, Jarvis, Brennan et al should be playing but who''s to say they are the answers to the problem? We have gone this far by having a settled side, and Nigel is not about to change his policy. We just have to accept that, and hope that he changes the right people at the right time in the future.

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Many good points made on this interesting subject.   I am sure that N.W. is an accomplished manager, who like all of us will at times make mistakes.

To get to the destination safely, he must, as captain of the NCFC ship, be sure that he charts the direction that he wants to sail her in football wise.  Therefore he will only play men who are pulling their weight in the same direction as he has decided.  Young, old, experienced, hard working and gifted will be the complicated mix that must be worked with to achieve that success.  Their application can only be assessed on the training ground and reserve games where the effort made by players to impress will be paramount in all his decisions.  We on these boards are not able to see what he sees during these sessions.  

I feel assured that he is more mature than some posters give him credit for.  Because every decision he makes in deciding the first team choices reflects on him as manager, therefore his security in the job.  He will be first to go if the powers to be doubt his honesty and integrity. 

As regards the point about the individuals performances after leaving the club not being indicative of their worth to Norwich FC; many of the players mentioned over their playing time here seemed to me to lack consistent focus on the job in hand. With the exception of Malky who seemed to me to be a whole hearted Mr Norwich in the mould of Duncan Forbes.  He seemed to me to be getting just that bit slow for the Premiership, having said that he would still have been my first team choice, even now. 

I only wish that Mulryne if given his chance could show a bit more effort in the win the ball sector of mid field, I have always found him talented but lazy in application, with a yard more pace and effort and forward direction he could be the answer to our prayers. Is Worthy the manager get that last ounce of effort from Mullers? I hope so. Fergie let him go for a reason and that is what bothers me.OTBC!!!!!!

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As a Malky fan - I still think we miss him - I don''t remember people "clamouring" for him to be dropped last year?

I also happen to be a Mullers fan and would love to se him given an opportunity in the centre of the park - we will never know until we try him.

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You are joking??? I''m a massive Malks fan, and I spent most of winter ''03 defending Malky to the hilt.

"Lacking in pace"
"Serverly exposed"
"a liability" etc etc

but we needed him then, and maybe (MAYBE) we need him now. That''s a debatable subject, and it''s far from a foregone conclusion that we do. He would be suffering desperately this year, just like Flem and Charlton are, and being honest - Malky was not the best at dealing with pace or strikers with great movement. Most prem strikers have that in abundance (hence, the problem with Leon is that he doesn''t!!!).

FatMan - nobody is denying that some NW decisions/signings/benchings are questionable, but a lot are perfectly explainable. Perhaps if Mullers stayed out of MacDonalds then he would get his chance...

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[quote]I have never bought the argument of "well, what has the player done since he left" as an acid test of how good someone is. Robert Fleck was a legendary player, and what happened to him after he left....[/quote]

In fairness Camberwick Green, I don''t think it''s necessarily the best test of a player''s quality - I was only responding to a previous post that claimed that heralded the success of these players since they''ve left the club, and then suggested them not doing well here might be something to do with Worthy''s poor management, which I don''t think is entirely accurate.

Also, the difference between Huckerby and Libbra is that Huckerby already brings something to the team when he plays. Apart from a few flicks, what did Libbra do? I remember games where it seemed like we were playing with 10 men. Worthy tried to make him a more influential player by making him an outlet from the back. Also, given that he was never going to beat a defender for pace, it seems logical to try and add something to his game that made him more effective in Division One.

As regards Svensson, given that he was no more than a reserve at Charlton, as wasn''t even making the bench, I think that his career is definitely looking up since he came here. He scored 7 goals in 60 games for Charlton. He''s already scored 8 for us in (I''m guessing) about half the amount of games. He''s looking sharper with every game and at the moment I don''t hear too many people suggesting that he gets dropped. Docherty was given some games up front after an impressive start there - when he started to look a little lost and ineffective up there he was dropped - it seems only fair to me that he was allowed his chance.

I''m enjoying this strand - it''s always nice to have new people on here and you make some very well educated points, Camberwick, and I''ve enjoyed reading your posts so far. I think on certain elements we''ll have to agree to disagree!!

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