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PurpleCanary

TICKETING POLICY

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Two events are coming up. McNally at the NCISA AGM. Where the subject of tickets prices is likely to be raised. Then the club,s ad hoc focus group on season ticket policy. Fans interested in the subject might find the following rather lengthy post (written on a foreign and unfamiliar keyboard) of value. The uninterested should look away now. I should add that all the figures I have used were correct at the time of my research, but change is always possible.

Firstly, some background. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, the country is suffering economically. And we have a government imposing job cuts. It will get worse before it gets better. And this affects football particularly below the gravity-defying mega-rich in the Premier League. In Norfolk we are subject to it. More than 300 people sacked at Connaught. Losses looming at County Hall. Job losses in the Careers Service. Which makes a kind of ironic sense.

One local expert last week on the situation in Norfolk: "We have seen an increase in redundancies reported, which will take a few months to filter through to the unemployment data...I would expect to see unemployment start to increase...in the autumn, particularly with redundancies at Connaught and others in the public sector. We know job cuts are coming but they haven,t impacted on the figures yet."

This has started to dawn even on Premier League club, with special offers and the like. More relevantly to us, Preston, a fellow Championship club, was so scared by a low attendance at the start of the season that it cut prices and reduced the number of high-grade games, admitting it had underestimated the recession. "We need to find a balance between the company needing money to stay afloat and being realistic about what people can afford in the difficult economic climate."

So far the only obvious reaction from Norwich has been to up the cost of food and drik, and scrap the 16-20 age group for casual tickets, making it more expensive for such fans rather than less. A move never actually announced by the club, and never justified, apart from the argument that it affected few people. Which raised the question, if so, why upset fans for so little - if any - benefit?

A survey of the other 23 Championship clubs shows that only two - Leeds and Millwall - also price casual fans as adults once they hit 16. The other 21 all have some kind of pre-adult category. Typically it is the kind of 16-20 group we have just done away with. So plainly the comparison to make was with the equivalent Leeds and Millwall prices and with a Championship club that still has a pre-adult category And the obvious one is Ipswich. Similar size. A one-club town. A one-club county. Agricultural area. No competing pro sports.

Millwall seems not to grade games, making comparison difficult. And while Ipswich and Leeds have three grades we - annoyingly - have five. But out C and D categories are rarely used for League games, although Leicester, interestingly, has now been categorised as C. Perhaps a sign of something when Swansea was an A. So it is fair to take the top three Norwich categories for comparison, and this is what (excluding premium priced lounges and the like) such pre-adults pay in pounds sterling:

Third category

Leeds 18-26

Ipswich up to 23

Norwich 24 upwards

Second category

Leeds 22-32

Ipswich up to 24

Norwich 27 upwards

Top category

Leeds 25-34

Ipswich up to 25

Norwich 29 upwards

In other words, category for category, the lowest Leeds prices are all lower than our lowest prices. And the highest Ipswich prices are all lower than our lowest prices. To repeat, Ipswich,s highest are lower than our lowest. It costs a 16-year-old less for the best seat at Portman Road than it does for the worst at Carrow Road. That simply doesn,t look justifiable.

Does this matter, if only a few people are involved? Yes, because Alan Bowkett hinted some months ago there were too many season ticket concessions. The obvious next step is to cut them, and particularly the 16-20 concession. Would that be a good idea, given that every other club in the division has such a pre-adult concessionary group?

This goes to the heart of Smith and Jones,s affordable family football policy, the success of which can be demonstrated by the following league attendance figures since the building of the Jarrold stand:

2004-05 (PL rel) 24,350

2005-2006 (Cham) 24,833

2006-07 (Cham) 24,544

2007-08 (Cham) 24,527

2008-09 (Cham rel) 24,542

2009-10 (L1 prom) 24,755

Astonishingly consistent, despite covering three divisions and promotions and relegations and midtable finishes. An average of 24,592, with a spread of only 483. Now the obvious conclusions to draw are that about 23,500 home fans (assuming an average of 1,000 away fans) will turn up no matter what the quality of football. And that the fans who stop turning up, whether because of death or moving away, or discovering girls or boys, or bellringing, keep being replaced. In other words the club has continued to attract the next generation. But also that it doesn,t look as if there are a couple of thousand potential extra fans out there who would turn up if the team was winning. Or in the Premier League. Because we,ve done that.

The danger is that the club has looked at those figures and drawn a different conclusion. That the fans will turn up no matter what they have to pay. Even in a recession. Not only that. That MORE will turn up, even in a recession. Otherwise why install 1,100 extra seats?

A conservative estimate is that the club must have budgeted for an average attendance this season of at least 25,500 and probably closer to 26,000. Only an idiot would draw conclusions from three home games but so far the average is 24,275. Short even of our worst seasonal averge. And bound to be short of the club,s hopes.

But who cares if some fans are being driven away, if the higher prices bring in more money? Because it risks losing a generation. And that, in the long run, means less money, not more. Take this very crude hypothetical example. Melchester Rovers has, year in, year out, sold 5,000 casual tickets at 20 pounds. Bringing in 100,000 pounds. It raises the price to 30 pounds and sells 4,000, because 1,000 fans can,t afford 30 pounds for 90 minutes entertainment in a recession. That brings in 120,000 pounds. Hurrah. The problem comes next season when the 1,000 who couldn,t afford 30 pounds still can,t and 500 other fans have literally or metaphorically died out. And the would-be fans who normally would have replaced the 500 don,t, because they can,t afford 30 pounds either. Probably because they are still at school. And the same the season after, so the attendance is now 3,000. Bringing in 90,000 pounds. Less than before.

Conclusions? The scrapping of the pre-adult casual category simply looks wrong. Totally unjustified. Certainly the club have never justified it. The answer? Reinstate it And the beauty of that the club doesn,t even have to announce it. Since - with breathtaking cowardice - it didn,t announce the scrapping it doesn,t have to announce the reinstatement. Just do it.

The far more serious question is what might be planned for next season. A move away from affordable family football? That too would be a mistake.

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[quote user="The Butler"]

Your usual in depth self PC

All well put and analysed

Will you be at the AGM to put theis to McNally and Foulger?

[/quote]

Thank you, TB. I,m afraid I live in the wrong time zone (some would say the wrong century!) to be an active member of a Norfolk-based organisation.

Anyone is, of course, welcome to make use of my analysis, and if anyone finds any errors with the figures I will happily correct them.

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A great write up and puts across all of my feelings.Season ticket prices are fantastic and great value but some of us are students live too far away and don''t get to enough games to justify paying up towards £250 for a season ticket. Last season I made the effort to get from Nottingham a good half a dozen times for home games. I understand football clubs are business'' and need to maximise revenue but at close to £30 for a 16-21 year old or student to get a ticket you''re going to lose fans who want to support the club.

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Thats a brilliant post PurpleCanary, thanks for taking the time to do all that reseach for us.

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[quote user="The Butler"]Will be more than pleased to add it to the question PC[/quote]

TB, if I remember right, you have McNally AND Foulger at your AGM. IF - and this is only a possibility - there is a boardroom split over this issue then the likelihood is that McNally and Foulger are on different sides of the divide. Which might make for an interesting question and answer session...

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Purple an excellent piece and one close to my own heart as my boys are now at uni and it is "cheaper" to buy them season tickets that are not always used than pay casual prices for their weekend visits home.

More room for me other times (don''t make me laugh on buy-back!!) but less noise for the team.

This will be a keen area for the AGM forum as will the 25% increase in small instant hot drinks and 42% increase in small chocolate bars.

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Excellent post PC. The club has clearly gone all out to maximise revenue, but at the expense of a lot of ill feeling. Your point about ticket prices in inarguable, and I would add that the hike in refreshment prices seems to be rebounding badly, particularly in the light of McNally''s preseason comments about rounding up prices but also offering better value packages, whereas the reality is that nothing seems to have changed (other than the price hike, of course). I don''t think that fans necessarily object to paying more (within reason), but they do resent being patted on the head and treated like idiots.

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What a great post PC.Now that the Club have decided to grade the Leicester match at a low '' C '' ( in my opinion) against the bizarre '' A '' rating for the Watford and Swansea games it''ll be interesting to see how the Chief Executive handles the issue at the NCISA AGM on Thursday evening.After thirteen months or so of plain sailing for the NCFC Board this match grading question seems to be the first time under the new regime that Club and supporters are not singing from the same hymn sheet.

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It is a very good post.  But it is also too early to reach the conclusions you draw at the end.  As you yourself say:"Only an idiot would draw conclusions from three home games but

so far the average is 24,275. Short even of our worst seasonal averge.
"If you could produce the average attendances for the first 3 games from 2009-10, 2008-9, 2007-8, then this would be a more accurate reflection of where we are in like-for-like terms.  We know August & early September are traditionally a bit light for crowds.  The club will have these figures, and I''m sure they are researchable.

And it still doesn''t get round the old problem.  We all want competitive football, which means better players, which means higher transfer fees and/or wages - but we don''t want to pay higher prices and we expect our benefactors, be it Delia & MWJ or someone else, to stump up the cash to subsidise the quality of our entertainment.  I''m sorry, but we have our contribution to make too and I consider the current pricing structure, which is broadly in line with other Championship clubs, to be reasonable in the context of football''s incredibly inflated economic bubble.

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[quote user="Mr. Chops"]It is a very good post.  But it is also too early to reach the conclusions you draw at the end.  As you yourself say:"Only an idiot would draw conclusions from three home games but

so far the average is 24,275. Short even of our worst seasonal averge.
"If you could produce the average attendances for the first 3 games from 2009-10, 2008-9, 2007-8, then this would be a more accurate reflection of where we are in like-for-like terms.  We know August & early September are traditionally a bit light for crowds.  The club will have these figures, and I''m sure they are researchable.

And it still doesn''t get round the old problem.  We all want competitive football, which means better players, which means higher transfer fees and/or wages - but we don''t want to pay higher prices and we expect our benefactors, be it Delia & MWJ or someone else, to stump up the cash to subsidise the quality of our entertainment.  I''m sorry, but we have our contribution to make too and I consider the current pricing structure, which is broadly in line with other Championship clubs, to be reasonable in the context of football''s incredibly inflated economic bubble.

[/quote]

First 4 home games 2009-10 (4 home games

to 19th September)

25,217

23,428

23,041

24,018

Average: 23,926

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[quote user="Mr. Chops"]

First 4 home games 2009-10 (4 home games

to 19th September)

25,217

23,428

23,041

24,018

Average: 23,926

[/quote]But the first game was over 25,000 and we lost 7-1 in the third tier so of course the crowd in the following games was going to be low until the side won a game or two, this season we''re on the back of a title win and in a higher league yet the crowds haven''t broken the 25,000 once, even with additional seating. The cap on attendances before this wasn''t far over 25,000 so who knows how would have turned up for the Colchester had we had the additional 1,000 seats.

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[quote user="Canary_on_the Trent"][quote user="Mr. Chops"]

First 4 home games 2009-10 (4 home games

to 19th September)

25,217

23,428

23,041

24,018

Average: 23,926

[/quote]But the first game was over 25,000 and we lost 7-1 in the third tier so of course the crowd in the following games was going to be low until the side won a game or two, this season we''re on the back of a title win and in a higher league yet the crowds haven''t broken the 25,000 once, even with additional seating. The cap on attendances before this wasn''t far over 25,000 so who knows how would have turned up for the Colchester had we had the additional 1,000 seats.[/quote]You can make excuses/contexts for anything.  The next home game was Lambert''s unveiling, that might have brought more people out than would have attended under Gunn.  For instance, this season, the first home game this season was a Friday night and on Sky....Which goes to show, it''s too early to comment yet!

2008-9 season for further context

23727 Blackpool, August

16

24229 Birmingham,

August 30

24249 QPR, September 17

24175 Sheff Utd,

September 20

24095 average

attendance

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[quote user="Mr. Chops"]You can make excuses/contexts for anything. [/quote]Perhaps you can, but having won the title and had 25,000+ just about every week once we''d got going under Lambert surely we''d have topped 25,000 at least once in the opening 3 games this season. We''ve not even been close to that mark and thats because people have been priced out, including myself.

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Canary_on_the Trent said: "I understand football clubs are business'' and need to maximise revenue but at close to £30 for a 16-21 year old or student to get a ticket you''re going to lose fans who want to support the club."

I''m probably being thick here (it wouldn''t be the first time) but how would we loose these fans? Are you saying that because they can''t afford tickets now they will go and support another team and become an armchair supporter of Man Yoo or something?

I moved from Norwich when I was 16 and for the fist few years when I was on low wages (all of it went of booze and partying) I couldn''t afford to watch Norwich unless they came to where I lived. I sucked it up and now 11 years later I can afford to go to a fair few games both home and away. Certainly not as many as I would like but I accept that eventually I hope to be able to move back to Norfolk and become a Season Ticket holder, until then I still support Norwich City and always will.

PC I like your post and it''s certainly worth reading even if I don''t agree with it completely. I do wonder however how many young fans don''t renew their season tickets once their parents stop paying for it even with the under 21 rates.

Davo

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[quote user="Canary_on_the Trent"][quote user="Mr. Chops"]You can make excuses/contexts for anything. [/quote]Perhaps you can, but having won the title and had 25,000+ just about every week once we''d got going under Lambert surely we''d have topped 25,000 at least once in the opening 3 games this season. We''ve not even been close to that mark and thats because people have been priced out, including myself.[/quote]It took until October 24 before we touched 25k under Lambert (24,959 against Swindon), so why don''t we wait a few more weeks before deciding that the club have got it all wrong this season?I appreciate it''s a pisser not being able to afford tickets.  I gave my season ticket up this season for many reasons, one of which was becoming a father and the associated financial burden.  But I don''t think our club have got pricing wrong.  I think they are doing what they need to do in order to make ends meet a little better in this crazy mini-economy football exists in.  I also think that they will be supremely sensitive to fluctuations in income caused by ticket pricing, but will want a few more matches before they decide if it''s a success or failure, and that''s all I''m saying here - we should take a longer term view too.

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

Have those extra season tickets that were made available - been snapped up yet? 

 

[/quote]

adam drury was trying to tempt me with one when i was in the ticket office phone queue this  tea time so i assume theresa few left [:D]

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[quote user="Fantom Runner"]Fully agree with the season ticket issue.

But re the food do what I do buy outside eat inside carrow road, simple !!!!!!!!!!!!


[/quote]

 

Fair point Bobert, but my point is that I have always bought food at the ground to support the club. Unfortunately I now feel that I''m having my leg lifted.

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One thing the club could do to increase revenue at a stroke would be to stop concessions for people between the ages of 60-65. It seems incredible to me that there should be concessions for this age group and yet none for 16-18. I really don''t see how somebody at the age of 60 would need a concession more than they would at 59.

18-21 is different. Some can afford it others can''t. Just as with over 65''s. In both cases many have more disposable income than folk with a young family who are not entitled to any concession whatsoever. There is a case to be made for scrapping all concessions over the age of 18.

As for refershment prices. I very rarely spend money on these things but noticed on Tuesday at Doncaster that the prices looked to be much the same as ours.

 

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I''m pretty much with you Mr Chops - of course large amounts of the other stuff is true, too; I''m not certain the club has it right but it is too early to be coming up with meaningful statistics/reactions when we have only played 3 home games, none against ''top'' sides (despite two being ''A'' grade - surely a mistake).

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

One thing the club could do to increase revenue at a stroke would be to stop concessions for people between the ages of 60-65. It seems incredible to me that there should be concessions for this age group and yet none for 16-18. I really don''t see how somebody at the age of 60 would need a concession more than they would at 59.

18-21 is different. Some can afford it others can''t. Just as with over 65''s. In both cases many have more disposable income than folk with a young family who are not entitled to any concession whatsoever. There is a case to be made for scrapping all concessions over the age of 18.

As for refershment prices. I very rarely spend money on these things but noticed on Tuesday at Doncaster that the prices looked to be much the same as ours.

 

[/quote]

I meant to say I rarely spend money on these things in the stadium.

Just thought I''d clear that up before Tilly accused me of not buying my round[B][;)]

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

One thing the club could do to increase revenue at a stroke would be to stop concessions for people between the ages of 60-65. It seems incredible to me that there should be concessions for this age group and yet none for 16-18. I really don''t see how somebody at the age of 60 would need a concession more than they would at 59.

18-21 is different. Some can afford it others can''t. Just as with over 65''s. In both cases many have more disposable income than folk with a young family who are not entitled to any concession whatsoever. There is a case to be made for scrapping all concessions over the age of 18.

[/quote]I think scrapping all concessions for over 18''s is a bit harsh, Nutty, as it is a nice recognition to those older supporters, say over 65, who have followed the team for many decades.I agree that those between 60 and 65 should pay the full whack. I''ve never quite fathomed out why, when we reach the current retirement age of 65 we''ve already had five years worth of free bus travel, reduced cost rail travel, discounts at the DIY sheds, cheaper meals, winter fuel allowance, etc, etc.I couldn''t claim a discount where I currently sit at Carrow Road but when the time comes I''ll be quite happy to pay the full price for my season ticket wherever it is in the ground.

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From the NCISA website, regarding ticket prices and a conversation with Richard Gough: "Richard also pointed out that the "home fan" attendance for the first two home games this season ,Watford and Swansea ,shows an increase on the first two games of last season"Just to say I think current talk of attendances is a bit of a red herring. We''ve had 3 home games - got to see how things go over the next 4 or 5 to see if they really have lost fans from the seats, or whether it is seasonal/low expectations/momentum based.

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Very difficult all this as something is right as more people are coming to FCR than ever before at this time of the season so I would think Mr McNally would argue his pricing is correct as there is more income with empty seats than reducing prices to fill them. Our gates in the winter months then depend on if we are playing for anything ( relegation or promotion keeps gates up ). Yes I know we have more season ticket holders and less casuals ( most of these new season ticket holders are last years casuals ) but for the vast majority football is very cheap at FCR ie the season ticket holders. Your post is very good but it does miss the point of the amazing value we get as season ticket holders ie under 21s ( renewing at first oppurtunity ) £173 = £7.50 per game. Kids prices were as low as £36.50. If an under 21 feels that £20 per game is a reasonable price to pay then by purchasing a season ticket and attending 8 games would cost you under £20 and spread over 12 months interest free means paying £15 per month. If you found another under 21 to share with the cost would drop back down to £8 per game, however I think the problem is that the games you would both want to come to would be Ipswich Leeds last game of the season ect, making it a bit strange because if this theory is correct then we would still sell out for the so called big games and always have around 24 - 25 thousand against the likes of Barnsley. If we knock £10 off our casual ticket prices the gate would need to be in excess of 26500 to get the same revenue, a full house using the Leicester pricing. Are there really 4000 ( Capacity 28500 ) people not coming to FCR every game because of the prices ? or if our first 2 games would have been against Ipswich and Leeds would these fans be paying and filling te ground ?. Have our large gates in the past mainly been via a large away following ? home seats were not sold out last year against Colchester.

Would the answer not be a limited number of under 21 tickets for those in full time education being available in the family enclosure, but those tickets not available for 6 pre selected games ie Ipswich Leeds ect. or 500 season tickets for under 21s that cant go to every game for a maximum of 8 games priced at say £120 ie £10 per month and £15 per game. These would not be available however for the likes of Ipswich.

Because of our massive debts I would think the club have to get in a certain income to satisfy the creditors. The income needs therefore to come from somewhere and I would think targeting casuals is less risky than season ticket holders. A lot of this is catch 22 because if prices reduced and several thousand more dont turn up then Lamberts budget will need to be reduced, the consequence I assume selling players or not adding to the squad. I then like many would not renew my season ticket and the club can then charge what they want for league 1 football.  

There is one solution that would get cheaper football for the fans and that is a massive reduction in players wages. That is why football used to be a cheap sport as wages used to be minimal and capped. Maybe the people to blame are not the board who are trying to provide a large fan base with a competitve team, but maybe your anger should betaken out on the likes of Grant Holt who is probably paid more in a month than most fans over 2 years.

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Well I agree that in some cases scrapping concessions for pensioners could be harsh. I don''t even advocate we do it. But as I said, there is a case to be made for it.

The 60-65 concession is ridiculous and I reckon there''s a lot of fans fall in that age group. I expect it to be long gone by the time I reach that age. (2039)

[:O]

 

 

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