We missed the Doc!

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Canary Wharf Canary"]I can think of four pens given away by doc, I''m sure there are more too: 1 v charlton in a 2-0 defeat shortly before grant was fired 1 v wolves when we won 5-2 1 v Bristol city 1 v Swansea for a foul on Scotland. Not saying we did or didn''t miss him, but that stat of three pens is made up[/quote]

Who made up the stat that Doc gave away the pen against Wolves[:^)]

 

[Power Hamster 0]

Maybe we did miss the Doc, but he''s gone now and there''s nothing we can do about it. More to the point, I think that Askou would have done a far better job in central defence than Ward, even if he isn''t fully match fit. Certainly when he was playing regularly early last season, he seemed to be winning nearly everything in the air, and his distribution seemed to be better than either Doc or Nelson. So I think it''s Askou that we are missing.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="city-till-i-die"][quote user="pennywise "]

we did miss the doc.. elliott ward made him look like franz beckenbaur .. there is no getting away from it letting doc go was a mistake

[/quote]To be fair PW im not sure Ward is 100% fit as yet....im sure we will see the best of him....and with doc the guy was a liability..how many pens/free kicks did he give away when he got turned inside out in the championship??? lol   i do agree we need pace in the CB position and i think Whitbread will add this when fit[Y][/quote]three a game, wasn''t it?

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Canary Wharf Canary"]I can think of four pens given away by doc, I''m sure there are more too: 1 v charlton in a 2-0 defeat shortly before grant was fired 1 v wolves when we won 5-2 1 v Bristol city 1 v Swansea for a foul on Scotland. Not saying we did or didn''t miss him, but that stat of three pens is made up[/quote]

Who made up the stat that Doc gave away the pen against Wolves[:^)]

 

[/quote]

And the Bristol City one was later overturned and the red card cancelled because it was an excellent last-ditch tackle that the referee got wrong.

But yeah, he was a dreadful player for us, I''d much rather have Ward and Nelson at centre back.   [:|]

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Canary Wharf Canary"]I can think of four pens given away by doc, I''m sure there are more too: 1 v charlton in a 2-0 defeat shortly before grant was fired 1 v wolves when we won 5-2 1 v Bristol city 1 v Swansea for a foul on Scotland. Not saying we did or didn''t miss him, but that stat of three pens is made up[/quote]

Who made up the stat that Doc gave away the pen against Wolves[:^)]

 [/quote]

"Wolves'' Sylvan Ebanks-Blake converted a penalty after a foul by Wes Hoolahan"

But Doc probably wrestled Hoolahan into the path of Ebanks-Blake.

[Shaker 0]

Lambert has cocked up big time over this. He''s let our best CB go and we are worse for it. Couple of things, to the poster who said the club had a one year option on Doc''s contract so couldnt offer him anymore money, no that was last year. Roundabout March time Doc stated he hoped he''d be offered a new deal. And as for this myth that he must have been asking for silly money what shite that is. If thats the case he''s ended up at the wrong club cause Charltons money problems would hardly suggest he''s on big money there. Lambert was never keen on Doc and despite a season where once he''d come back into the side he was outstanding Lambert was always going to show him the exit door. If this was Roeder showing stuborness like that he''d be taking pelters on here but he''s not cause its Lambert but that dosen''t mean he''s right, he''s cocked up. Ward looks pretty dodgy and i can''t believe there seems to be so many pinning there hopes on Whitbread. He''s played about 3 games, looked crap in everyone and been injured since then, another Louis-Jean by the look of it.

[Vinny !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 0]

AGREED........

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Gary Doherty signed a 2 year deal in 2008. The club decided not to take up the option this summer. Details here

The three penalties is what is stated on Canaries.co.uk  if it''s wrong then I guess the club made it up[;)]

 

 

[komakino 272]

All this makes me laugh. Doherty was not of Premiership or Championship standard and was a liability at times. Some fans gave him stick and rightly so. He was fine for League One, but if the refereeing standards had of been higher, it would been more penalties given away by one G.Doherty.

Now he''s gone, some fans question why we got rid of him. You just can''t win can you? I''m no fan of our current central pairing, but keeping The Doc just wouldn''t of made sense. Best of luck to him but we should all move on.

Next...

[grantroederdisaster 0]

[quote user="Shaker"]

Lambert has cocked up big time over this. He''s let our best CB go and we are worse for it. Couple of things, to the poster who said the club had a one year option on Doc''s contract so couldnt offer him anymore money, no that was last year. Roundabout March time Doc stated he hoped he''d be offered a new deal. And as for this myth that he must have been asking for silly money what shite that is. If thats the case he''s ended up at the wrong club cause Charltons money problems would hardly suggest he''s on big money there. Lambert was never keen on Doc and despite a season where once he''d come back into the side he was outstanding Lambert was always going to show him the exit door. If this was Roeder showing stuborness like that he''d be taking pelters on here but he''s not cause its Lambert but that dosen''t mean he''s right, he''s cocked up. Ward looks pretty dodgy and i can''t believe there seems to be so many pinning there hopes on Whitbread. He''s played about 3 games, looked crap in everyone and been injured since then, another Louis-Jean by the look of it.

[/quote]

 

While I hope that Ward will come good, I think the same as you do!

[grantroederdisaster 0]

[quote user="komakino"]All this makes me laugh. Doherty was not of Premiership or Championship standard and was a liability at times. Some fans gave him stick and rightly so. He was fine for League One, but if the refereeing standards had of been higher, it would been more penalties given away by one G.Doherty. Now he''s gone, some fans question why we got rid of him. You just can''t win can you? I''m no fan of our current central pairing, but keeping The Doc just wouldn''t of made sense. Best of luck to him but we should all move on. Next...[/quote]

 

What a load of  b ollocks!

 

The Doc played over 200 games for us, most of them were good performances, hence the reason he won a player of the season and was close a couple of other times.

 

The Doc was in reality quick, much quicker than we have now. Remember the Doc outpacing Earnie during a Norwich V Forest game 2 seasons ag?

 

Last season he was a major reason why we were so good. He was voted as one of the best 2 CB''s in last seasons League 1 by other players which says something.

 

It seems to me that Lambert didn''t rate him from the off and only intially picked him cause he had too, then when the Doc was so good, couldn''t drop him.

 

If the Doc was a c rap as some of the numpties reakon he was then the club would of got shot of him 2-3 years before Lambert did!

 

Ward looks slow, turns away when the opposition are shooting and kicks the ball anywhere. I can see why Coventry didn''t want him!

 

I sincerely hope that Ward comes good but him and Nelson looked like players playing out of their depth last night. If Ward does half of what Doc did for us then he would of been a more than reasonable signing!

 

As for sicknote Whitbread - I heard that Millwall were glad to get rid of the lame horse and hes been with us since January now and if he''d of been that good then why didn''t he play more last season?

Again I hope he comes good but in my many years of watching Norwich I''ve learned that someone injured that much probably isn''t going to be worth a w ank!

[Bomber 48]

[quote user="pennywise "]

we did miss the doc.. elliott ward made him look like franz beckenbaur .. there is no getting away from it letting doc go was a mistake

[/quote]

As was Russell''s battling qualities in midfield where I think the game was lost

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

[quote user="Shaker"]

Lambert has cocked up big time over this. He''s let our best CB go and we are worse for it. Couple of things, to the poster who said the club had a one year option on Doc''s contract so couldnt offer him anymore money, no that was last year. Roundabout March time Doc stated he hoped he''d be offered a new deal. And as for this myth that he must have been asking for silly money what shite that is. If thats the case he''s ended up at the wrong club cause Charltons money problems would hardly suggest he''s on big money there. Lambert was never keen on Doc and despite a season where once he''d come back into the side he was outstanding Lambert was always going to show him the exit door. If this was Roeder showing stuborness like that he''d be taking pelters on here but he''s not cause its Lambert but that dosen''t mean he''s right, he''s cocked up. Ward looks pretty dodgy and i can''t believe there seems to be so many pinning there hopes on Whitbread. He''s played about 3 games, looked crap in everyone and been injured since then, another Louis-Jean by the look of it.

[/quote]So much difference in opinion over Doc now (i dont remember him being defended during the majority of his championship years) however Icant let this post go:1) No hes not, didnt cut it in the championship and Lambert rightly doesnt want to risk him again-made mistakes last season, some we know (tranmere) others were covered by R.Martin/Drury/Nelson and others have just been forgotten because he was the banished man that fought his way back in like Lappin. Both had good seasons in League 1 but still made mistakes that (like with Ward and Nelson last night) would be punished more in the championship.2) Because he''d done his homework and seen how Doc performs in the championship and when under more pressure. For the majority of last season and when Doc was back in the team we had a pretty easy run - and most players came away looking good, and Doc plays well when confident (like a lot of players) however when not confident he starts his ''hands all over players'' clumsy, out of position, off the pace poor performances that were all too regular in the championship. When Doc is under pressure he makes mistakes that were too costly. In contrast, you know what you get with Nelson - no nonsense defending, still makes mistakes but i havent seen his level drop because of a goal or poor performace, hes picked himself up and got on with it. I think in time Ward will be a better partner at CB for Nelson that Doc couldve been in the championship.3) Yes he has looked shaky and not really match fit. Thought he started well for about 5mins with a composed interception and clearance but his performance when downhill from then on. Looks reasonably comfortable on the ball but cant remember a clearance that he didnt slice or head the wrong way! Hopefully its just about fitness but then why wasnt Askou playing (who i think will get a chance on tues).4) I''ll admit the injury bit is a worry but to say he looked crap in every game is just wrong. Remember the Brentford game? Holt getting sent off and Lambert putting 3 at the back with Whitbread coming on. He certainly wasnt crap then imo, the defence was solid with only 3 on the pitch and coped well with anything Brentford had. His other sub appearances he wasnt properly fit and that is the main concern with him. He certainly hasnt played enough to be judged properly though and from what he has played i thought he looked mostly solid.Don''t know why i keep biting to all these Doc posts but some comments are just laughable. The biggest sign for me that Lambert did the right thing is seeing where Doc is now - in League 1. I hate the phrase but he has found his level. An inconsistent CB is not what we need and with Doc he could score goals but could also give away free kicks/pens and make silly errors that would get punished more this season. I for one am glad Im not going along this season wondering what sort of performance ill see from Doc and just hope Ward/Whitbread can become the consistent reliable CB that Doc never was.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

[quote user="komakino"]All this makes me laugh. Doherty was not of Premiership or Championship standard and was a liability at times. Some fans gave him stick and rightly so. He was fine for League One, but if the refereeing standards had of been higher, it would been more penalties given away by one G.Doherty. Now he''s gone, some fans question why we got rid of him. You just can''t win can you? I''m no fan of our current central pairing, but keeping The Doc just wouldn''t of made sense. Best of luck to him but we should all move on. Next...[/quote]

 

What a load of  b ollocks!

 

The Doc played over 200 games for us, most of them were good performances, hence the reason he won a player of the season and was close a couple of other times.

 

The Doc was in reality quick, much quicker than we have now. Remember the Doc outpacing Earnie during a Norwich V Forest game 2 seasons ag?

 

Last season he was a major reason why we were so good. He was voted as one of the best 2 CB''s in last seasons League 1 by other players which says something.

 

It seems to me that Lambert didn''t rate him from the off and only intially picked him cause he had too, then when the Doc was so good, couldn''t drop him.

 

If the Doc was a c rap as some of the numpties reakon he was then the club would of got shot of him 2-3 years before Lambert did!

 

Ward looks slow, turns away when the opposition are shooting and kicks the ball anywhere. I can see why Coventry didn''t want him!

 

I sincerely hope that Ward comes good but him and Nelson looked like players playing out of their depth last night. If Ward does half of what Doc did for us then he would of been a more than reasonable signing!

 

As for sicknote Whitbread - I heard that Millwall were glad to get rid of the lame horse and hes been with us since January now and if he''d of been that good then why didn''t he play more last season?

Again I hope he comes good but in my many years of watching Norwich I''ve learned that someone injured that much probably isn''t going to be worth a w ank!

[/quote]

Good points well made GRD. I''d just like to add another and that''s if the Doc was as c rap as some of the numpties make out they wouldn''t have to resort to making stuff up to discredit him[:O]

[;)]

 

[ca 1]

Yes we did, he''s miles better than Ward and Nelson

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

[quote user="newboy"]absolute rubbish, given time ward and whitbread will both prove to be far better than the doc.[/quote]

Time is something we cannot easily afford. Ward was incredibly poor last night - I was embarrased for him. He was short in every department. Whitbread is a sicknote player - from the little we''ve seen, Askou looks classier than both Ward and Whitbread. 

The Doc must have been having a right chuckle at his replacement''s performance last night.

The master on display was Martin Taylor. How did we fail to secure his services on a permanent basis? Malky knows a good ''un in that position - Taylor operates with so much composure - and he does it week in, week out. Fabulous example.

[Malcolm Allen 0]

I wouldnt say we missed the Doc, but I mentioned a couple of weeks ago we were a bit thin of quality in that area and everyone dismissed it but it definatly looks like it is going to be an issue.

Probably they arent helped by not having much confidence in Ruddy either.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

I think we did!

 

Ruddy wasn''t as bad as some are making out and I''d say it was more a case of Ruddy having little confidence in Nelson and Ward!

[grantroederdisaster 0]

Time is something we cannot easily afford. Ward was incredibly poor last night - I was embarrased for him. He was short in every department. Whitbread is a sicknote player - from the little we''ve seen, Askou looks classier than both Ward and Whitbread. 

The Doc must have been having a right chuckle at his replacement''s performance last night.

The master on display was Martin Taylor. How did we fail to secure his services on a permanent basis? Malky knows a good ''un in that position - Taylor operates with so much composure - and he does it week in, week out. Fabulous example.

 

 

 

 

 

Well said!

 

I was saying to people before the game that Taylor was getting on now and not the presence he once was - How wrong was I!

 

Taylor was better than messrs Nelson and Ward put together!

 

Our CB situation is worrying which is why those like myself who could see how good the Doc will keep on referring to him!

[Houston Canary 0]

We were -6 goal dif at this point last year but only -1 this year.

[Bury Yellow 2]

Can''t be bothered to look through all this thread.

Anyone who has followed the transfers in and out would appreciate in Ward we have a quality defender that unfortunately picked up an injury pre season. The fact he had played very little football in the latter stages of last season doesn''t help but in the long run he is twice the player Doc is/was.

This pre occupation about the Doc is frustrating. the usual suspects bang on about so called loyalty. Doc had no loyalty in the last few years and would have run big time if a club had come in for him. They didn''t!! Well they have now - a League One club Big bloody deal!

I am proud of our wonderful support but this pathetic small minded attitude we have to ex players is really quite pathetic. It hasn''t worked in the last few years and it won''t now!

Who would I would prefer to listen to Lambo or some on this board - no contest.

We have to move on. There will be some backward steps but one step back two forward is progress.

Finally; Friday night was not that bad. The pace is always a problem when moving up a division.

Just ask Leeds!!

Ward is not match fit. No Holt means no movement. No cover for Holt means potential problems if not addressed but we will be ok.

Ruddy was impressive in the friendlies other then the Everton mistake. He might not be successful but it''s too early to make a final decision.

Look at Lambo''s record as a player and manager. He is very intelligent and experienced. Give it time folks

[Shaker 0]

Big difference of opinion with you on this Persnickety and thats fair enough but i''d still defend my view on the subject. Yes i do remember the Brentford game and honestly my first opinion of Whitbread that day was that he looked shakey and he''s looked worse in the two games i''ve seen him in since then. I know we got the win against Brentford but i really thought he was the weakest link. It was his debut granted but he was woeful against Stockport.

I think that Doc gave you 7/8 out of 10 every week and i can''t agree with you that he''s been shown up in the championship over the years, honestly that kind of comment is what always winds me up when Doc is being discussed cause its just not true.

I''ve been very unimpressed with Ward in the three games i''ve seen him and that worries me cause i thought he''d be decent (which he hopefully turns out to be). Him and Nelson are not good enough as a pairing. Bury yellow said he''d rather go with PL''s judgement on this and not the posters on here. Well hows about we go with the views of the professional footballers who voted Doc in there team of the season, or do they know nothing either? Because my beef with this is Doc is better than Nelson, and yet Lambert has weakened us by getting shot of the better player and i think this comes down to a bit of face saving or whatever you want to call it by PL. I''ve no problem with getting rid of Doc if you bring in someone better, we haven''t.

BTW even by your standards of dumbness to put it politely Yank that -6 compared to -1 is just about the most pointless post stupid post ever.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

[quote user="Bury Yellow"]Can''t be bothered to look through all this thread. Anyone who has followed the transfers in and out would appreciate in Ward we have a quality defender that unfortunately picked up an injury pre season. The fact he had played very little football in the latter stages of last season doesn''t help but in the long run he is twice the player Doc is/was. This pre occupation about the Doc is frustrating. the usual suspects bang on about so called loyalty. Doc had no loyalty in the last few years and would have run big time if a club had come in for him. They didn''t!! Well they have now - a League One club Big bloody deal! I am proud of our wonderful support but this pathetic small minded attitude we have to ex players is really quite pathetic. It hasn''t worked in the last few years and it won''t now! Who would I would prefer to listen to Lambo or some on this board - no contest. We have to move on. There will be some backward steps but one step back two forward is progress. Finally; Friday night was not that bad. The pace is always a problem when moving up a division. Just ask Leeds!! Ward is not match fit. No Holt means no movement. No cover for Holt means potential problems if not addressed but we will be ok. Ruddy was impressive in the friendlies other then the Everton mistake. He might not be successful but it''s too early to make a final decision. Look at Lambo''s record as a player and manager. He is very intelligent and experienced. Give it time folks[/quote]

 

If I was a manager I''d oneof my theories would be - Try to keep hold of your best players.

 

I kept on about Huckerby leaving and looking at the season after he left that was proved a bad move!

 

Mackay should never of been released in 2004 and that was proved during the season!

 

I fear that releasing the Doc will be the same!

 

Friday was bad - Without Holt it showed we will struggle up front and the centrebacks were poor and liabilities!

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Shaker"]

 Because my beef with this is Doc is better than Nelson, and yet Lambert has weakened us by getting shot of the better player and i think this comes down to a bit of face saving or whatever you want to call it by PL. I''ve no problem with getting rid of Doc if you bring in someone better, we haven''t.

 

[/quote]

Bingo.

If Paul Lambert has got anything wrong since he''s been here it''s this. Assuming that it was a football decision... he''s got it wrong.

I would be very surprised if Paul Lambert could look at it and say with full honesty that he sees Nelson as a better player than Doherty.

However, it''s done now and either it''s got to come good or he''s got to make a change before it becomes too much of a costly decision.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

Couldn''t agree more!

[Shaker 0]

Glad GJP and Granty agree. Lambert has been superb for us but i really don''t think that this was a football descision as such. Lambert very quickly made a judgement on Doc and let everyone one know what it was. Doc was in PL''s eyes the last resort and we were very much down to the last resort for the Orient game when he brought him back and was then in the situation that he could not drop him because he was clearly our best CB by a country mile.

As you say GJP can Lambert honestly look in the mirror and say that Nelson is the better player? If he can then i don''t think he''s the football genius we hoped he was.

I disagree with you one one thing GJP in that i dont think its his only mistake. Going by what i''ve seen in the home friendlies and on Friday Jackson worries me. His finishing against Everton was seriously putting the corner flags in danger and i dont know if its just me but he dosen''t seem that fast even. Everytime he''s been in a chase with a defender he''s come out second. I''d much rather have kept Cody whos got pace and can finish and brought someone like Alan Lee or that type who''s played in the championship and can put pressure on Holt for his place.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Bury Yellow"]Can''t be bothered to look through all this thread. Anyone who has followed the transfers in and out would appreciate in Ward we have a quality defender that unfortunately picked up an injury pre season. The fact he had played very little football in the latter stages of last season doesn''t help but in the long run he is twice the player Doc is/was. This pre occupation about the Doc is frustrating. the usual suspects bang on about so called loyalty. Doc had no loyalty in the last few years and would have run big time if a club had come in for him. They didn''t!! Well they have now - a League One club Big bloody deal! I am proud of our wonderful support but this pathetic small minded attitude we have to ex players is really quite pathetic. It hasn''t worked in the last few years and it won''t now! Who would I would prefer to listen to Lambo or some on this board - no contest. We have to move on. There will be some backward steps but one step back two forward is progress. Finally; Friday night was not that bad. The pace is always a problem when moving up a division. Just ask Leeds!! Ward is not match fit. No Holt means no movement. No cover for Holt means potential problems if not addressed but we will be ok. Ruddy was impressive in the friendlies other then the Everton mistake. He might not be successful but it''s too early to make a final decision. Look at Lambo''s record as a player and manager. He is very intelligent and experienced. Give it time folks[/quote]

Can''t be bothered to read all this post. Anyone who has the slightest idea about anything will know my opinion is spot on. The usual suspects bang on about Doc this and Doc that but in truth they don''t know. This concieted and small minded attitude is what''s wrong with our fans today! I''d much prefer to listen to Lambo than read this drivel anyway.

BTW Bury - I had a long chat with Simon on Friday and he''s definitely on the mend[Y]

[;)]

 

[Depraved 0]

I think some posters on here have short memories, last time Doc played at this level he failed miserably. One of the reasons we ended up in league 1.

[kdncfc 0]

Getting rid of Doherty was the right decision, problem is we don''t yet know whether or not Ward is good enough to replace him. Ward has been around the Championship for a while and has been ok so I''m hopeful he will get better, wish I could say the same of Nelson but I just don''t see him being quick enough to cope.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

That is a matter of opinion though. Some would if more of our players had reached Docs standard then we wouldn''t have been relegated.

Anyway, to move on (because Doc has) he apparently had an awful game yesterday for Charlton. He had his hands all over the Bournemouth strikers. Gave away countless free kicks around the box and fourteen penalties. The referee didn''t give any of them but I assure you it happened.