our club is driving the working class fans away

[morty 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Mister Chops"]This is a load of guff, sorry.City''s average home league gate in 2009-10 was 24,755, the second

highest at Carrow Road since the 1970s and better than their last three

seasons in the Championship.Attendance versus Watford on a Friday night during the summer holiday season was 24,348.  Barely below last season''s attendances even allowing for the price increases.So no, I don''t think the prices are driving fans away.  I understand why people are annoyed at paying more, but if we''re going to compete and survive as a business then we need more money coming into the club from all parties, not just shareholders.

[/quote]---You can''t possibly draw a remotely sensible conclusion by comparing last

season''s average with one game from this season. For starters there are

all sorts of one-off factors - on both sides.

Keepig the crowd down: a Friday night. On Sky. Watford not being the biggest draw in the division.

Pushing the crowd up: first game of the season. Loads of new players.

Back up a division. Feelgood factor. More season ticket-holders.

And the point here, in any event, is not about what the overall size of

the crowd was, but whether the high price discouraged casual sales. If

you deduct the 20,550 season tickets you get 3,798. Then deduct however

many Watford brought. This is a pure guess, but say a round 1,000. That

leaves 2,798 Norwich casual sales. Is that figure higher or lower than last

season''s average of casual sales? I don''t know the answer, but that is

the question here.

However the REAL point is not what the club is charging for casual sales

for this season. The real point is whether higher casual prices for

this season pressage significantly higher season ticket prices next

season. [/quote]I would expect an increase, but not a significant one.At the end of the day, season ticket holders are committing a larger amount of guaranteed cash to the club than the casual supporter does, and this is reflected in giving them value for money.This isn''t saying ST holders are better fans, merely that their commitment to go for the entire season, through thick and thin, before a ball is even kicked is recognised.

[Herb 0]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]So no, I don''t think the prices are driving fans away.  I understand why people are annoyed at paying more, but if we''re going to compete and survive as a business then we need more money coming into the club from all parties, not just shareholders.[/quote]A fair argument. But the fans will increasingly expect the extra cash to deliver success. If it doesn''t (and I mean within a couple of seasons at most) then watch them desert in droves.It''s a delicate balance, if the club call this issue wrongly we could be back to attendances we saw in the last few months of the Chase era within 3 or 4 seasons.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]And the point here, in any event, is not about what the overall size of

the crowd was, but whether the high price discouraged casual sales. If

you deduct the 20,550 season tickets you get 3,798. Then deduct however

many Watford brought. This is a pure guess, but say a round 1,000. That

leaves 2,798 Norwich casual sales. Is that figure higher or lower than last

season''s average of casual sales? I don''t know the answer, but that is

the question here.

[/quote]My point is all the people saying "the high prices are driving people away from football" - on the basis of Friday night''s game, this is untrue. As with the team itself, we''ll know much more by October.Shifting about 3,000 casual tickets for a Friday night game on Sky seems pretty decent to me.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Mister Chops"]This is a load of guff, sorry.City''s average home league gate in 2009-10 was 24,755, the second

highest at Carrow Road since the 1970s and better than their last three

seasons in the Championship.Attendance versus Watford on a Friday night during the summer holiday season was 24,348.  Barely below last season''s attendances even allowing for the price increases.So no, I don''t think the prices are driving fans away.  I understand why people are annoyed at paying more, but if we''re going to compete and survive as a business then we need more money coming into the club from all parties, not just shareholders.

[/quote]---You can''t possibly draw a remotely sensible conclusion by comparing last

season''s average with one game from this season. For starters there are

all sorts of one-off factors - on both sides.

Keepig the crowd down: a Friday night. On Sky. Watford not being the biggest draw in the division.

Pushing the crowd up: first game of the season. Loads of new players.

Back up a division. Feelgood factor. More season ticket-holders.

And the point here, in any event, is not about what the overall size of

the crowd was, but whether the high price discouraged casual sales. If

you deduct the 20,550 season tickets you get 3,798. Then deduct however

many Watford brought. This is a pure guess, but say a round 1,000. That

leaves 2,798 Norwich casual sales. Is that figure higher or lower than last

season''s average of casual sales? I don''t know the answer, but that is

the question here.

However the REAL point is not what the club is charging for casual sales

for this season. The real point is whether higher casual prices for

this season pressage significantly higher season ticket prices next

season. [/quote]I would expect an increase, but not a significant one.At the end of the day, season ticket holders are committing a larger amount of guaranteed cash to the club than the casual supporter does, and this is reflected in giving them value for money.This isn''t saying ST holders are better fans, merely that their commitment to go for the entire season, through thick and thin, before a ball is even kicked is recognised.[/quote]Morty, we will see. It is possible (it''s not an unheard of marketing strategy) that the club is testing the waters with the price of casual tickets now to see what season ticket holders might or might not stand for next season. And there are other aspects that might be changed, to bring in more money. Bowkett has already floated the idea of reducing the number of concessions. And there is one other change that might be implemented which I''ll shy away from mentioning, just in  case the club HASN''T thought of it![;)]

[morty 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Mister Chops"]This is a load of guff, sorry.City''s average home league gate in 2009-10 was 24,755, the second

highest at Carrow Road since the 1970s and better than their last three

seasons in the Championship.Attendance versus Watford on a Friday night during the summer holiday season was 24,348.  Barely below last season''s attendances even allowing for the price increases.So no, I don''t think the prices are driving fans away.  I understand why people are annoyed at paying more, but if we''re going to compete and survive as a business then we need more money coming into the club from all parties, not just shareholders.

[/quote]---You can''t possibly draw a remotely sensible conclusion by comparing last

season''s average with one game from this season. For starters there are

all sorts of one-off factors - on both sides.

Keepig the crowd down: a Friday night. On Sky. Watford not being the biggest draw in the division.

Pushing the crowd up: first game of the season. Loads of new players.

Back up a division. Feelgood factor. More season ticket-holders.

And the point here, in any event, is not about what the overall size of

the crowd was, but whether the high price discouraged casual sales. If

you deduct the 20,550 season tickets you get 3,798. Then deduct however

many Watford brought. This is a pure guess, but say a round 1,000. That

leaves 2,798 Norwich casual sales. Is that figure higher or lower than last

season''s average of casual sales? I don''t know the answer, but that is

the question here.

However the REAL point is not what the club is charging for casual sales

for this season. The real point is whether higher casual prices for

this season pressage significantly higher season ticket prices next

season. [/quote]I would expect an increase, but not a significant one.At the end of the day, season ticket holders are committing a larger amount of guaranteed cash to the club than the casual supporter does, and this is reflected in giving them value for money.This isn''t saying ST holders are better fans, merely that their commitment to go for the entire season, through thick and thin, before a ball is even kicked is recognised.[/quote]Morty, we will see. It is possible (it''s not an unheard of marketing strategy) that the club is testing the waters with the price of casual tickets now to see what season ticket holders might or might not stand for next season. And there are other aspects that might be changed, to bring in more money. Bowkett has already floated the idea of reducing the number of concessions. And there is one other change that might be implemented which I''ll shy away from mentioning, just in  case the club HASN''T thought of it![;)][/quote]McNally is a shrewd operator, and I don''t think he underestimates the value of selling 20,500 seats for the entire season before a ball is even kicked, and given a lot of peoples financial predicament right now I doubt he''d take the pi$$.They need to be very careful with the concessions, because I''d be willing to wager that a good quarter of the season ticket holders are either kids or pensioners.Lol, whats your idea? I''m pretty sure they will have already thought of it anyway!

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="morty"]Lol, whats your idea? I''m pretty sure they will have already thought of it anyway![/quote]Oh they almost certainly have, but just suppose they haven''t and I gave them the idea. I can tell you I would be suddenly become extremely unpopular[:''(][N] with fellow season-ticket holders. We will see next spring. If - as I suspect - they have thought of it - and acted accordingly - I''ll come clean.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Mister Chops"]This is a load of guff, sorry.City''s average home league gate in 2009-10 was 24,755, the second

highest at Carrow Road since the 1970s and better than their last three

seasons in the Championship.Attendance versus Watford on a Friday night during the summer holiday season was 24,348.  Barely below last season''s attendances even allowing for the price increases.So no, I don''t think the prices are driving fans away.  I understand why people are annoyed at paying more, but if we''re going to compete and survive as a business then we need more money coming into the club from all parties, not just shareholders.

[/quote]---You can''t possibly draw a remotely sensible conclusion by comparing last

season''s average with one game from this season. For starters there are

all sorts of one-off factors - on both sides.

Keepig the crowd down: a Friday night. On Sky. Watford not being the biggest draw in the division.

Pushing the crowd up: first game of the season. Loads of new players.

Back up a division. Feelgood factor. More season ticket-holders.

And the point here, in any event, is not about what the overall size of

the crowd was, but whether the high price discouraged casual sales. If

you deduct the 20,550 season tickets you get 3,798. Then deduct however

many Watford brought. This is a pure guess, but say a round 1,000. That

leaves 2,798 Norwich casual sales. Is that figure higher or lower than last

season''s average of casual sales? I don''t know the answer, but that is

the question here.

However the REAL point is not what the club is charging for casual sales

for this season. The real point is whether higher casual prices for

this season pressage significantly higher season ticket prices next

season. [/quote]Unless this is a red herring,  you can''t necessarily make the assumption all ST holders turned up.  You''re bound to have more ST no shows now due to holidays.  Is is a fair guess to say 400-500 were on holiday?  if that is the case the attendance would''ve been pushing 25,000.  Just another thought to chuck into the pot. 

[Bruce Eats Walkers! 0]

I am concerned about the potential for increased season ticket prices next year. I don''t have a problem with the increased price of beer because it''s been £3.20 a pint at Carrow Road for a good few seasons now and Football Grounds are always more expensive than pubs, now pub prices are around the £3.20 mark football club prices were bound to go up, its charging £2.00 for a 500ml bottle of Coca Cola or Fanta that annoys me, after 45 minutes in the Lower Barclay I''m in need of a drink now at £1.60 I would have bought one, knowing that it''s going to cost me £2.00 means I''ll take the 5 minute detour to Tescos on the way to the ground and pay half the price.

[ca 1]

[quote user="ſilly ſauſage"]

Unless this is a red herring,  you can''t necessarily make the assumption all ST holders turned up.  You''re bound to have more ST no shows now due to holidays. 

Is is a fair guess to say 400-500 were on holiday?  if that is the case the attendance would''ve been pushing 25,000.  Just another thought to chuck into the pot. 
[/quote]

 

Season Ticket holders are counted whether they are there or not, so there will always be 20,500 plus away fans plus any casual Norwich fans.

So against Watford it was 20500 + 500 Away fans ( plus we lose about 250 for the seperation area ) so there were still around 5750 tickets to sell of which we sold just over 3000

[YankeeCanary 0]

When it comes to the price of liquid refreshments ( if it''s such a big issue ) surely almost all of you can go a couple of hours without consuming anything. After all, a camel can go for long periods in the desert without liquid consumption. Of course, I know most of you are better looking than a camel ( not all of you necessarily ), but if you go on complaining about such things that you have absolute control over you are more than likely to get the hump.  

On a serious note, it does appear to me that this group managing the fortunes of NCFC are focused on taking the club back to the Premiership in the future to compete. Unless something else radically changes in the financial structure of football in general then it would appear sensible to accept the reality of what that will entail. On the other hand, if the majority would rather a "community club" approach prevail then it is appropriate to make that known through the appropriate channels. What should be apparent, however, is that you cannot have your cake and eat it.  

[AndyJR 0]

The only way it will get resolved is when someone makes a stand and simpy says fooballers wages are ridiculous.  We have 20,550 season ticket holders yet can''t actually afford to compete.  Strange when everyone else has to tighten their belts, the elite footballers want more, as if £70,000 a week isn''t enough.  When you say to your self 20,30,40,70 100 thousand a week, it begins to sound more and more ridiculous, which it is.  It''s also ruining football.

[I am a Banana 0]

I think they have given lambert to much money to spend by mistake and are now having to recoupe some of the money they spent, which they need to get from the fas!

[Ren 75]

Andy - that is one of the best posts ever on here, but we are all guilty of funding this, with our season ticket, sky subs etc.

Its all starting to get a bit much for me and I am drinking in last chance saloon. Put the STs by much more than inflation and I am off.

*stands back and waits for people to start posting "**** off then we dont need you"

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

When it comes to the price of liquid refreshments ( if it''s such a big issue ) surely almost all of you can go a couple of hours without consuming anything. After all, a camel can go for long periods in the desert without liquid consumption. Of course, I know most of you are better looking than a camel ( not all of you necessarily ), but if you go on complaining about such things that you have absolute control over you are more than likely to get the hump.  

On a serious note, it does appear to me that this group managing the fortunes of NCFC are focused on taking the club back to the Premiership in the future to compete. Unless something else radically changes in the financial structure of football in general then it would appear sensible to accept the reality of what that will entail. On the other hand, if the majority would rather a "community club" approach prevail then it is appropriate to make that known through the appropriate channels. What should be apparent, however, is that you cannot have your cake and eat it.  

[/quote]Speaking as someone who has only on a very few occasions bought anything to eat or drink at Carrow Road, I would agree with a fair bit of that, Yankee! Which is why I''ve concentrated on the question of ticket prices rather than food and drink.However I would in part take issue with the alternatives you pose - "community club" versus hardnosed business operation. Firstly, the "community club" thing has been very successful in terms of attendances. A stark contrast to the Chase era.However even if Bowkett and McNally take the hardnosed approach to far greater lengths than we have seen so far that will not make much difference to whether or not we consolidate in the Premier League. That will require considerable new investment. Something Bowkett said not long ago that Smith and Jones recognised. I''m not necessarily arguing against a tougher financial approach, but fans should not for a moment think it will be the major factor in staying in the top flight.

[Mello Yello 2,279]

[quote user="I am a Banana"]I think they have given lambert to much money to spend by mistake and are now having to recoupe some of the money they spent, which they need to get from the fas![/quote]

Or, maybe because someone wants their loan money back, before they''re willing to move aside for a new owner and major investor?

 "Oink!"

 

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="ſilly ſauſage"]Unless this is a red herring,  you can''t necessarily make the assumption all ST holders turned up.  You''re bound to have more ST no shows now due to holidays.  Is is a fair guess to say 400-500 were on holiday?  if that is the case the attendance would''ve been pushing 25,000.  Just another thought to chuck into the pot.  [/quote]

 

Season Ticket holders are counted whether they are there or not, so there will always be 20,500 plus away fans plus any casual Norwich fans.

So against Watford it was 20500 + 500 Away fans ( plus we lose about 250 for the seperation area ) so there were still around 5750 tickets to sell of which we sold just over 3000

[/quote]Are they really? I didn''t realise that.  I thought the steward at the gates used those thumb clickers to count.[:$]

[grantroederdisaster 0]

The £30 price is a big pcsyhcological barrier!

 

I''m sure with the more reasonable £25 we''d of almost sold out!

 

Fans who often go to away games and have been to the cramped away end at Vicarage Road have to ask the question - Would I of paid £31 to stand at Watford. I certainly would of said no!

 

Wiping out the reduced prices for 16-21 year old casual fans has as good as wiped out a section of support. Unless mummy and daddy are rich how many persons in this age group can afford £31 to watch one game of football.

 

The only way it will work is if we are challenging otherwise crowds will drop and the capacity increase would of not been needed! 

 

I respect the club had to tighten their financial belts but they have gone a step too far!

[morty 0]

At the end of the day it boils down to "If you can''t afford something, you can''t have it"It may sound harsh, but thats life I''m afraid.

[. 0]

Looks like what I''ve been saying for years is finally beginning to sink in.........It''s now an auditorium for la de das and not the sport of the working man (deliberate ommision of the other gender).

[dhickl 0]

[quote user="ron obvious"][quote user="Brendo "][quote user="morty"][quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="morty"]Whilst  I completely get what you''re saying, as I struggle myself, but football is an expensive business, and if we want success, we have to finance it.
[/quote]

There were thousands of empty seats for the game against Watford which suggests they made the tickets too expensive. They could have made more money if they had lowered the prices and sold more tickets.
[/quote]

We have been through this so many times on here, worked out the numbers, but its really not the case.
[/quote]
24,500 x £32 = £784,000
27,000 x £25 = £675,000

You''re right. [:(] However with the added fans buying stuff in the bars? Actually no, the price would need to be £29.07 for them to make more than if it was the price it is now.



[:(]
[/quote]

You''re making the same mistake I did yesterday. The only tickets you can sell at £31 are those left after season tickets (20,500). So it''s 6,500 x £25 (if we sold out) vs 4,000 x £31.  £162,500 - £124,000 = £ 38,500.

IF we sold out.


[/quote]As the club''s target market, I thought I would give my view.  I was a season ticket holder for 12 years, I gave up so I could spend more time with my son (until he is old enough to go to the games).  This means that I will only go to the occasional game.  Watford is a club that is supported by my extended family, so this would be one that I would normally chose to go to.  I didn''t go to the game.  The question is, if the club reduced the price to £25 from £31, would that have changed  my situation.  The answer is no.  What would have changed it for me?  2 Things, 1) If it wasn''t an evening kick off.  2) If it wasn''t on Sky. 

I think that, for the majority, if someone wants to go to the game and is prepared to spend £25 for the ticket, the fact it is £31 isn''t likely to stop them.  I think Ron Obvious was right to say "IF we sold out", as in my view, that unless they lowered it to a ridiculously low price (i.e. <£15) then we would never have sold out.

[Arthur Whittle 0]

You forgot to add"LOL" Morty you cock

[morty 0]

[quote user="Arthur Whittle"]You forgot to add"LOL" Morty you cock[/quote]What?It wasn''t meant to be funny.

[Arthur Whittle 0]

Yeah i know, a bit like the rest of your posts.......zzzzzzz

[morty 0]

[quote user="Arthur Whittle"]Yeah i know, a bit like the rest of your posts.......zzzzzzz[/quote]Ah right, your old friend Johnny Walker has come to visit, has he?

[WeAreYellows49 0]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Arthur Whittle"]Yeah i know, a bit like the rest of your posts.......zzzzzzz[/quote]

Ah right, your old friend Johnny Walker has come to visit, has he?


[/quote]

 

I don''t think that''s Arthur [:O]

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Arthur Whittle"]Yeah i know, a bit like the rest of your posts.......zzzzzzz[/quote]Ah right, your old friend Johnny Walker has come to visit, has he?

[/quote]More likely to be the seven dwarves he keeps as nephews.Haven''t you got pensioners to intimidate?

[emmaroyds 0]

[quote user="morty"]At the end of the day it boils down to "If you can''t afford something, you can''t have it"It may sound harsh, but thats life I''m afraid.[/quote]That`s what I think too. I want one of those HTC mobile phones but can`t afford one so it`ll have to be something like an LG. Now I expect someone to shout and say it`s not the same thing but I think it is.You either want your club to be run properly like a business or you want it keep pissing money away. Maybe if we didn`t have a growing £20 million debt hanging around our necks things would be different.We`ve maxed out the credit card, now we have to pay.

[WeAreYellows49 0]

[quote user="emmaroyds"][quote user="morty"]At the end of the day it boils down to "If you can''t afford something, you can''t have it"

It may sound harsh, but thats life I''m afraid.
[/quote]

That`s what I think too. I want one of those HTC mobile phones but can`t afford one so it`ll have to be something like an LG. Now I expect someone to shout and say it`s not the same thing but I think it is.

You either want your club to be run properly like a business or you want it keep pissing money away. Maybe if we didn`t have a growing £20 million debt hanging around our necks things would be different.

We`ve maxed out the credit card, now we have to pay.
[/quote]

 

That''s the long and the short of it im afraid!!!

For years we have been crying out for changes at the club at all levels, now it''s happening fans still whine and moan.  Personally im glad that issues are being addressed and if that means an extra few quid here and there, and ST''s costing a little more then sobeit.

 

[AndyJR 0]

Let''s get rid of the NHS whilst we''re at it.  Surely those who have money have worked harder and therefore should be treated first.  There are some very strange undertones on this thread.

[morty 0]

[quote user="AndyJR"]Let''s get rid of the NHS whilst we''re at it.  Surely those who have money have worked harder and therefore should be treated first.  There are some very strange undertones on this thread. [/quote]Last time I checked Norwich City isn''t a government funded institution lol.Football is an entertainment, and if its one someone can''t afford, then they can''t go. The same applies to people carping on about losing Sky sports news off freeview, if you either can''t or don''t want to stump up the cash, then its kinda tough.And I''m not being elitist here, I''m not even working class right now lol.Its simple economics, if you can''t afford something, you can''t have it.