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First Wizard

Curo's gone so come on down Nelson!

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The new whipping boy on here it seems.

Look, if PL''s happy with The Admiral, then so should you, if he''s dropped, there''s always Mr R Martin to pick on next.

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Who is picking on Nelson?Seems to be all Ruddy and Russel Martin at the moment.[:|]

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[quote user="morty"]Who is picking on Nelson?

Seems to be all Ruddy and Russel Martin at the moment.

[:|]
[/quote]Late last night they did, but you''re right about the others too.

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Expressing the view a player is not good enough for the championship is not picking on them. I am not booing the guy. I am not hurling abuse at him. I will support him when he is on the pitch but this board is for people to express their opinions about Norwich City and its players and it just dismays me to see a player with such limited pace/ability in our team this season. I am genuinely worried that if he stays there then we will get caught out time and time again by teams at championship level. As someone commented below, Gillingham could have had 3 or 4 last night. There were many games last season where the same could be said. We got away with it because they are lower league and did not take their chances. Every team at champ level has more clinical strikers or strikers with pace. They will not be so forgiving.

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[quote user="First Wizard"]

The new whipping boy on here it seems.

Look, if PL''s happy with The Admiral, then so should you, if he''s dropped, there''s always Mr R Martin to pick on next.

[/quote]

I think, given that some of us actually go to matches, that we can make our own minds up.

Thanks all the same.

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[quote user="First Wizard"]

The new whipping boy on here it seems.

Look, if PL''s happy with The Admiral, then so should you, if he''s dropped, there''s always Mr R Martin to pick on next.

[/quote]

 

I said the same last night when listening to radio norfolk on the way home from the Norfolk Arena, Doc isn''t here, Nelly will be the new whipping boy [:)]

At times he looks a bit shaky, but I don''t think he''s as bad as some make out.

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Nelson''s an alright defender - fair enough he can''t distribute the ball well but sometimes you need someone who''ll just clear the danger.

However, his pace is very worrying - he''ll never keep up with the average Championship front man which is why he has to concentrate harder than most on his timing, positioning, and marking. Basically, he can''t let himself get turned or he''s in big trouble.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]

Expressing the view a player is not good enough for the championship is not picking on them. I am not booing the guy. I am not hurling abuse at him. I will support him when he is on the pitch but this board is for people to express their opinions about Norwich City and its players and it just dismays me to see a player with such limited pace/ability in our team this season. I am genuinely worried that if he stays there then we will get caught out time and time again by teams at championship level. As someone commented below, Gillingham could have had 3 or 4 last night. There were many games last season where the same could be said. We got away with it because they are lower league and did not take their chances. Every team at champ level has more clinical strikers or strikers with pace. They will not be so forgiving.

[/quote]So in fact, you don''t trust Lamberts judgement.

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[quote user="hogesar"]

Nelson''s an alright defender - fair enough he can''t distribute the ball well but sometimes you need someone who''ll just clear the danger.

However, his pace is very worrying - he''ll never keep up with the average Championship front man which is why he has to concentrate harder than most on his timing, positioning, and marking. Basically, he can''t let himself get turned or he''s in big trouble.

[/quote]

This exactly Whiz. His decision making is poor, his positioning is okay at best, and he gets turned far too easy (their goal last night, watch the replays...) and time and time again it happened, and if that happens against a decent Championship striker, 9/10 times they would at least work the goal keeper hard.

We can''t give that much away, we need to be solid at the back. He was the same last season, but the quality was lower so we could get away with it. Saying that, he''s not really any different to the Doc, so I''m glad we have Ward at the back.

Nelson is okay. When he is playing well, he plays very well, otherwise, he''s okay at best. His distribution was the most frustrating thing last night, he only seems to be able to play a nice pace out to the full backs, otherwise it''s just a blood to the head thump up the field

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sorry but nelson is poor and has never played at this level before!! if he was good then that wouldnt be true, he would have been snapped up earlier in his career, after all he is 30!!!

 

he is good in the air but lacks pace and the ability to play out of defence. watch the games and you will see that all he does is hoof it forward most of the time

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[quote user="E Block Loyal"][quote user="First Wizard"]

The new whipping boy on here it seems.

Look, if PL''s happy with The Admiral, then so should you, if he''s dropped, there''s always Mr R Martin to pick on next.

[/quote]

I think, given that some of us actually go to matches, that we can make our own minds up.

Thanks all the same.

[/quote]Standard get out claptrap reply (I saw the Watford game) you still don''t trust Lambert either, thats the only relevent fact here, not point scoring off posters. [img]http://www.acidtrax.net/smileys/kissass.gif[/img]

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There''s no doubt about it, if you put an average Championship target man to play against Nelson in an aerial battle then Nelson is up there with the best but apart from that he is pants!

As Nelson is so slow he must be good at positioning and timing etc, but he isn''t.  I think Ward will turn out to be okay and the two weak links in the defence this season will be Nelson and R.Martin.

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I can remember similar messages when Mackay was first playing for us in the Championship.

Let''s give Nelson a few Championship games to assess first, shall we? At the end of the day that is what a squad is for and why we have Askou and Whitbread waiting in reserve. If he has a few mares I am sure PL will change it.

For now though, lets get behind Nelly. He played a big part in getting us here last year.

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Oh and for god''s sake - Russell Martin had a good game last night! Quit the wining!

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"So you dont trust Lambert"Please can we have some balance. Im not the sort of person who will criticize players and managers when they do the slightest thing wrong, however I will never have blind faith in anyone. Lambert has shown he is a good manager. Is he perfect? Of course not. So I dont see how he can be above constructive criticism. I trust him at the moment to do a good job. But do I trust him to do a perfect job and get every decision right? Of course not. As for the actual issue at hand, I havent seen enough of Askou (In training) or Whitbread (At all) to really judge.

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[quote user="Pabs"]Oh and for god''s sake - Russell Martin had a good game last night! Quit the wining![/quote]

Yes, against Gilligham who are in League 2 and looked poor.  He wasn''t very good against Watford IMO and he wasn''t last season in League 1 either.

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[quote user="Trent Canary"]"So you dont trust Lambert"Please can we have some balance. Im not the sort of person who will criticize players and managers when they do the slightest thing wrong, however I will never have blind faith in anyone. Lambert has shown he is a good manager. Is he perfect? Of course not. So I dont see how he can be above constructive criticism. I trust him at the moment to do a good job. But do I trust him to do a perfect job and get every decision right? Of course not. As for the actual issue at hand, I havent seen enough of Askou (In training) or Whitbread (At all) to really judge.[/quote]

Good reponse TC. Lambert has clearly shown what a good manager he is at league 1 level and let''s hope he proves equally as good at Championship level. I haven''t seen enough of Whitbread to make a judgement but I saw Askou a number of times last season and he impressed me (but so did Spillane to be honest). As for Nelson, I think he is a poor man''s Doherty. Good at League One level but definitely too slow and ponderous at Championship level.

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[quote user="Bogbrush"][quote user="Trent Canary"]"So you dont trust Lambert"Please can we have some balance. Im not the sort of person who will criticize players and managers when they do the slightest thing wrong, however I will never have blind faith in anyone. Lambert has shown he is a good manager. Is he perfect? Of course not. So I dont see how he can be above constructive criticism. I trust him at the moment to do a good job. But do I trust him to do a perfect job and get every decision right? Of course not. As for the actual issue at hand, I havent seen enough of Askou (In training) or Whitbread (At all) to really judge.[/quote]

Good reponse TC. Lambert has clearly shown what a good manager he is at league 1 level and let''s hope he proves equally as good at Championship level. I haven''t seen enough of Whitbread to make a judgement but I saw Askou a number of times last season and he impressed me (but so did Spillane to be honest). As for Nelson, I think he is a poor man''s Doherty. Good at League One level but definitely too slow and ponderous at Championship level.[/quote]Its First Wizard we are dealing with here,  I must have dropped my pinch of salt before I opened the thread [:)]I dont see enough games live to know either way. Askou impressed me, but thats based on three games. Nelson looked good in league one when he had some confidence. I always thought Doc got a hard time for no real reason. Ward hasnt looked good, and my Coventry supporting friend has drilled it into me that hes awful. Time will tell.... But im sure everyone will still have their favourites and their scapegoats. Thats life.

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[quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="Jim Smith"]

Expressing the view a player is not good enough for the championship is not picking on them. I am not booing the guy. I am not hurling abuse at him. I will support him when he is on the pitch but this board is for people to express their opinions about Norwich City and its players and it just dismays me to see a player with such limited pace/ability in our team this season. I am genuinely worried that if he stays there then we will get caught out time and time again by teams at championship level. As someone commented below, Gillingham could have had 3 or 4 last night. There were many games last season where the same could be said. We got away with it because they are lower league and did not take their chances. Every team at champ level has more clinical strikers or strikers with pace. They will not be so forgiving.

[/quote]So in fact, you don''t trust Lamberts judgement.[/quote]

So far lambert has proven himself to have good judgment (or at least that he is a quick learner) and if thats the case he will no doubt rectify the situation asap. However my faith in lambert does not mean he is above criticism or we don''t have the right to ask questions. I do think that going into the season with Nelson at CB is a mistake and if he allows it to continue for too long then it casts doubt on Lambert''s judgment in this particular area just as others think we need someone else at the foot of the diamond (i am not sure I agree with that one but each to their own).

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[quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="E Block Loyal"][quote user="First Wizard"]

The new whipping boy on here it seems.

Look, if PL''s happy with The Admiral, then so should you, if he''s dropped, there''s always Mr R Martin to pick on next.

[/quote]

I think, given that some of us actually go to matches, that we can make our own minds up.

Thanks all the same.

[/quote]Standard get out claptrap reply (I saw the Watford game) you still don''t trust Lambert either, thats the only relevent fact here, not point scoring off posters. [img]http://www.acidtrax.net/smileys/kissass.gif[/img][/quote]

I''ll take your word for it, especially as you''ve basically written the book on claptrap. I''m not saying you have to watch games all the time to have a view, but, for somebody who catches the odd game on the TV, you do seem very well informed and keen to tell everyone what they should think.

Never mind that, at 30 years of age, Nelson is playing at a level unknown for him, if you don''t rate home or even question his ability against Championship players, then you are against Lambert. It''s absolute drivel.

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So basically what you''re saying Wiz is that no-one is allowed an opinion on any players as they must have 100% blind faith in Paul Lambert. You do realise that means you can''t like a player in case you like him more than Lambert does because that would be going against Paul Lambert? You can''t dislike a player because if Lambert''s playing him, then he must like him and that''s going against Lambert. Don''t even get me started on tactics because... That''s right... You guessed it, you''d just be going against what Lambert thinks. I''ll remember that whenever you show any piece of opinion whatsoever. So what would be the point of being on a messageboard? You can''t talk about what you think because it might not be what Lambert thinks. You can''t talk about what you would do because it might not be what Lambert does. You been on a summer camp with Kim Jong Il or something?

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This whole whipping boy stuff is just nonsense anyway.

A whipping boy is someone unfairly blames and punished for other''s mistakes.  On this board it usually means someone who is consatntly criticised and unfairly so in the poster''s mind.

However, rarely do posters attack a player gratuitously.  In almost all cases, it is because the player is considered deficient or as a weak link in the side.   Fans want the best team possible.   Any team is improved by replacing its weakest or least proficient members with stronger performers.

It is quite natural and arguably appropriate therefore that criticism focuses on the weakest players.   The fact that there is a widespread consensus as to who that player is at any particular time effectively proves the point.   If it is a player for whom one has a particular regard or affection then the criticsm can seem unfair or misplaced but they are the underperformers or weaker talents.   Hughes, Cureton and Doc all had periods of shocking form and failed to deliver what might reasonably be expected of them.   Ward and Martin have looked below standard so criticism and concern will inevitably focus on them.

Nobody who wants to improve the current team would start by replacing Holt.   Yet if every other player was substantially improved then Holt could become the weak link and even the so-called whipping boy.   There will always be room for improvement and there will always be a poorest player.  

This whipping boy rubbish is just a lazy smear used by those who like the particular player who is subject to criticism to attack the critics rather than deal with the criticism on its merits.

 

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

This whole whipping boy stuff is just nonsense anyway.

A whipping boy is someone unfairly blames and punished for other''s mistakes.  On this board it usually means someone who is consatntly criticised and unfairly so in the poster''s mind.

However, rarely do posters attack a player gratuitously.  In almost all cases, it is because the player is considered deficient or as a weak link in the side.   Fans want the best team possible.   Any team is improved by replacing its weakest or least proficient members with stronger performers.

It is quite natural and arguably appropriate therefore that criticism focuses on the weakest players.   The fact that there is a widespread consensus as to who that player is at any particular time effectively proves the point.   If it is a player for whom one has a particular regard or affection then the criticsm can seem unfair or misplaced but they are the underperformers or weaker talents.   Hughes, Cureton and Doc all had periods of shocking form and failed to deliver what might reasonably be expected of them.   Ward and Martin have looked below standard so criticism and concern will inevitably focus on them.

Nobody who wants to improve the current team would start by replacing Holt.   Yet if every other player was substantially improved then Holt could become the weak link and even the so-called whipping boy.   There will always be room for improvement and there will always be a poorest player.  

This whipping boy rubbish is just a lazy smear used by those who like the particular player who is subject to criticism to attack the critics rather than deal with the criticism on its merits.

 

[/quote]I have to agree with Cambridge, the fans only want the best for the team and I guess it''s a case of the weakest link syndrome.  Whilst I personally don''t boo or knock players who may read this forum, I know in my mind who I consider to be the weakest link in the team but I also think if I can see who that is, so can a football-educated manager such as PL.  

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

This whole whipping boy stuff is just nonsense anyway.

A whipping boy is someone unfairly blames and punished for other''s mistakes.  On this board it usually means someone who is consatntly criticised and unfairly so in the poster''s mind.

However, rarely do posters attack a player gratuitously.  In almost all cases, it is because the player is considered deficient or as a weak link in the side.   Fans want the best team possible.   Any team is improved by replacing its weakest or least proficient members with stronger performers.

It is quite natural and arguably appropriate therefore that criticism focuses on the weakest players.   The fact that there is a widespread consensus as to who that player is at any particular time effectively proves the point.   If it is a player for whom one has a particular regard or affection then the criticsm can seem unfair or misplaced but they are the underperformers or weaker talents.   Hughes, Cureton and Doc all had periods of shocking form and failed to deliver what might reasonably be expected of them.   Ward and Martin have looked below standard so criticism and concern will inevitably focus on them.

Nobody who wants to improve the current team would start by replacing Holt.   Yet if every other player was substantially improved then Holt could become the weak link and even the so-called whipping boy.   There will always be room for improvement and there will always be a poorest player.  

This whipping boy rubbish is just a lazy smear used by those who like the particular player who is subject to criticism to attack the critics rather than deal with the criticism on its merits.

 

[/quote]I have to agree with Cambridge, the fans only want the best for the team and I guess it''s a case of the weakest link syndrome.  Whilst I personally don''t boo or knock players who may read this forum, I know in my mind who I consider to be the weakest link in the team but I also think if I can see who that is, so can a football-educated manager such as PL.  

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

This whole whipping boy stuff is just nonsense anyway.

A whipping boy is someone unfairly blames and punished for other''s mistakes.  On this board it usually means someone who is consatntly criticised and unfairly so in the poster''s mind.

However, rarely do posters attack a player gratuitously.  In almost all cases, it is because the player is considered deficient or as a weak link in the side.   Fans want the best team possible.   Any team is improved by replacing its weakest or least proficient members with stronger performers.

It is quite natural and arguably appropriate therefore that criticism focuses on the weakest players.   The fact that there is a widespread consensus as to who that player is at any particular time effectively proves the point.   If it is a player for whom one has a particular regard or affection then the criticsm can seem unfair or misplaced but they are the underperformers or weaker talents.   Hughes, Cureton and Doc all had periods of shocking form and failed to deliver what might reasonably be expected of them.   Ward and Martin have looked below standard so criticism and concern will inevitably focus on them.

Nobody who wants to improve the current team would start by replacing Holt.   Yet if every other player was substantially improved then Holt could become the weak link and even the so-called whipping boy.   There will always be room for improvement and there will always be a poorest player.  

This whipping boy rubbish is just a lazy smear used by those who like the particular player who is subject to criticism to attack the critics rather than deal with the criticism on its merits.

 

[/quote]I agree to an extent. Most people follow the ideas you put forward, in that if theres a weaker player then they will get criticised. Your example of Doc is a good one, I think he turned around all but his most staunchest critics with his performances last season. However there are a lot of people who are blinded by their dislike for a particular player. At Swindon Away I was sat next to someone who was calling Russell Martin all the names under the sun; Every time he misplaced a pass they guy would go berserk, anytime anyone else misplaced a pass you wouldnt hear a peep. Even when R Martin played a beautiful lofted through ball the guys first reaction was ''Oh f*****n long ball again!''I think it works both ways. Huckerby is rightly considered a legend, yet he had his faults. Some people chose to ignore all the times he would lose the ball, dive and moan at the ref, or not get back in defence. Again its just a matter of balance. Criticize where its justified, and Praise where its justified. Theres some people who will only do one or the other. However I think this thread has found a happy medium.

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[quote user="Trent Canary"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

This whole whipping boy stuff is just nonsense anyway.

A whipping boy is someone unfairly blames and punished for other''s mistakes.  On this board it usually means someone who is consatntly criticised and unfairly so in the poster''s mind.

However, rarely do posters attack a player gratuitously.  In almost all cases, it is because the player is considered deficient or as a weak link in the side.   Fans want the best team possible.   Any team is improved by replacing its weakest or least proficient members with stronger performers.

It is quite natural and arguably appropriate therefore that criticism focuses on the weakest players.   The fact that there is a widespread consensus as to who that player is at any particular time effectively proves the point.   If it is a player for whom one has a particular regard or affection then the criticsm can seem unfair or misplaced but they are the underperformers or weaker talents.   Hughes, Cureton and Doc all had periods of shocking form and failed to deliver what might reasonably be expected of them.   Ward and Martin have looked below standard so criticism and concern will inevitably focus on them.

Nobody who wants to improve the current team would start by replacing Holt.   Yet if every other player was substantially improved then Holt could become the weak link and even the so-called whipping boy.   There will always be room for improvement and there will always be a poorest player.  

This whipping boy rubbish is just a lazy smear used by those who like the particular player who is subject to criticism to attack the critics rather than deal with the criticism on its merits.

 

[/quote]

I agree to an extent. Most people follow the ideas you put forward, in that if theres a weaker player then they will get criticised. Your example of Doc is a good one, I think he turned around all but his most staunchest critics with his performances last season. However there are a lot of people who are blinded by their dislike for a particular player. At Swindon Away I was sat next to someone who was calling Russell Martin all the names under the sun; Every time he misplaced a pass they guy would go berserk, anytime anyone else misplaced a pass you wouldnt hear a peep. Even when R Martin played a beautiful lofted through ball the guys first reaction was ''Oh f*****n long ball again!''

I think it works both ways. Huckerby is rightly considered a legend, yet he had his faults. Some people chose to ignore all the times he would lose the ball, dive and moan at the ref, or not get back in defence.

Again its just a matter of balance. Criticize where its justified, and Praise where its justified. Theres some people who will only do one or the other. However I think this thread has found a happy medium.
[/quote]

You are entirely right Trent.

I was specifically addressing the "whipping boy" smear in relation to mass criticism of a particular player rather than the individual loves and dislikes that we all have.   If Hucks had been the weaker player in the team he would have been criticised significantly.   Both Fleming and Holt became liabilities in the Prem and were awarded whipping boy status by their supporters when the previous adulation turned to concern and criticism by those who actually watched them play.   Legends can become liabilities too.   They deserve recognition of their achievements and strengths but not by ignoring the problems.

It is easier to cry "whipping boy", than address what is going wrong and how it can be rectified.  

I strongly feel that shouting "whipping boy " rather than deal with the facts is a deliberate distraction away from the debate.

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I believe certain players are whipping boys for certain fans. Not just players but managers, coaches and even directors. Being critical of performances and wanting better players, coaches, managers and directors at the club is fair enough. But making things up to back up these criticisms surely takes things too far and quite possibly weakens the critics case.

 

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raz[quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="Jim Smith"]

Expressing the view a player is not good enough for the championship is not picking on them. I am not booing the guy. I am not hurling abuse at him. I will support him when he is on the pitch but this board is for people to express their opinions about Norwich City and its players and it just dismays me to see a player with such limited pace/ability in our team this season. I am genuinely worried that if he stays there then we will get caught out time and time again by teams at championship level. As someone commented below, Gillingham could have had 3 or 4 last night. There were many games last season where the same could be said. We got away with it because they are lower league and did not take their chances. Every team at champ level has more clinical strikers or strikers with pace. They will not be so forgiving.

[/quote]So in fact, you don''t trust Lamberts judgement.[/quote]Crazy talk FirstWizard.Lambert is the man for the job but as other people have just pointed out that doesn''t make him void of criticism. Lets take it a stage further. I''m sure Alex Ferguson has the support of the ManU fans, but many ManU fans don''t agree with the signing of Dimitar Berbatov and Ferguson''s insistance on playing him. Therefore Ferguson will occasionally get criticism from the fans but at no point will the majority of the fans want him out, their trust in him will remain.Personally I think Lambert is the best thing to happen to this club in years, but I personally don''t like R.Martin, Nelson or Ruddy (jury still out I guess). I think they are ok players but not good enough for the Championship. Just my opinion. This doesn''t mean that I don''t trust Lambert''s judgement, if I did I''d want him out. Maybe it''s that Lambert can''t find the right defenders for the right price to replace them due to his hands being a bit tied financially. Or maybe they are good in training but yet to transfer that ability to a competive match. Who knows! They''re there for whatever reason but as a fan I can voice my opinions on them as I want this team to improve always. As someone has already said, Lambert is a quick learner so I trust him to put the defence right if he can.

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