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yellow hammer

Why I cannot love and forgive Delia!

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I first began posting on this site because I felt there was a huge gap in footballing administration experience at the board level that was having a detrimental effect on the playing side. One of my earliest posts called for a Director of Football to be appointed. I didn''t get much support at the time, mainly I believe, because the idea of footballing directors carried an image of either a wanna manager or some old has-been who is in denial than he just can''t cut it any longer.

But I felt there was a huge gulf between the board at that time and the playing side. For example. The whole policy on loanees under Roeder was a complete shambles. How did the board come to sanction this policy? Did they fully understand the implications to morale in not having one''s own players. Did they ever ask where this policy had been tried and succeeded in the past?  Did they know even what questions to ask a manager? I suspect that too much was left to the manager''s discretion and not enough footballing desicions have been queried, simply because they did not know what to ask.

The appointment of McNally was absolutely on the nail. He is much more than a CEO, he also fufils that role of Director of Football and bridges that gap between coaches/players and the board. He is a translator able to speak both languages. I will give you an example of what I mean.

One of the reasons given by McNally for the dismissal of Bryan Gunn was that the manager did not know how to properly prepare the team for a match. Now can you imagine any other board member making a comment like that? Did you ever hear Doncaster say a similar thing during the time of his tenure?  Such a remark would have been laughable coming from Doncaster. In fact I doubt Doncaster ever had any idea how Gunn, or any other manager come to that, would prepare a team before a game. On match days, Doncaster would have been found at the front of the house meeting and greeting and making himself available to the great unwashed.

Perhaps you are getting some idea of where I am placing the blame for our demise over the past few years. But while Doncaster wasn''t up to the job  that needed to be done, it wasn''t entirely his fault.His skills were in communications, coming up with the now infamous ''prudence with ambition'' mantra, which if you  take it at face value, has a certain easy-on-the-air charm about it. It''s not until you realise that it was a glib phrase that excused underfunding on the squad as neccessary to pay for the equally infamous ''tangible fixed assets'' that we all love to argue about, then do we really understand the damage done by the office of the CEO.   Doncaster was a good administrator and a good communicator. A lawyer and an MBA graduate makes him perfectly suitable for some plush burocrat''s office at the FA where he can talk the talk. But I suggest those qualities are perfectly unsuitable for the hurly-burly, rough and tunble world of soccer management. Those are the qualities that McNally possesses in spades. Consider the un-Norwich-like way in which we snatched , not just Paul Lambert, but his coaching team as well, from those unfortunate neighnour''s in Colchester. It was a smash and grab raid the like of which Queen Boudica would have been proud.

So the question is how did we end up with McNally? Was it brilliant judgement, or was it a case that if you keep going for long enough, eventually you will turn up trumps? I think it was the latter because most of the board appointments, in fact most of their major decisions have fallen woefully short of average. You don''t need me to list the terrible managerial appointments since1996.  Or their lack of ability,as Nutty regularly points out, to hang on to the one single successful manager of our club before the arrival of Paul Lambert. We might add to that the inability to hang on to investors, viz the Turners, the inability to hang on to backroom staff, trainers, kit men and one of the best marketing guys in the business  who was arguably responsible for the runaway success of our season ticket program.

Then we have to consider this overwhelming, middle-class obsession with property as an investment. This madness, this English disease, that drives millions into so much debt that they will boast about the size of their mortgage in the same way that a man with gout will boast about the size of his foot - this thinking was allowed to infect the mindfulness of our board, who saw themselves as land speculators rather than football administrators. Yes, I know many will say that ''how were the board to  know that the property bubble was about to burst?'', which misses the point completely. We are a football club and not wanna-be Donald Trumps.  We don''t do speculation unless it''s taking a chance on some18year-old kid from the minor leagues.

So all in all, I think we got lucky with McNally. And like some kind of old Testament virtuous circle, McNally begat Lambert, and Lambert begat self-belief, and self-belief begat wins where once we looked at draws or even losses. And points brought the fans onside, and players  wanted to come  to City to play in front of  a full house of passionate fans. The big-bang pointing back to a singularity.

We got lucky big time and we''re still riding the wave of success. And when the wind is set fair we often forget the storms that have passed our way. Unfortunately I''m not able to forgive and forget the navigators who steered us into those heavy seas. Yes, I perfectly well understand that our board always had the club''s best interests at heart, they were well-meaning and spent a massive amount of their personal fortune at a time when football''s finances were as out of control as the Greek economy. But the fact is their decision making was simply awful as I have tried to explain above. As an illustration, contrast the situation today with how it was a few years ago.

Before, we were run by a couple of well-meaning amateurs and a board who you feel wouldn''t say boo to a goose. We had a series of woeful, inexperienced and, in some cases, arrogant managers who were given a free reign to do pretty much as they wished. We had a silky,smooth CEO, a master of spin, and a squad of overpaid journeymen hacks, who had no idea from one week to the next just who they would be playing alongside. Indeed whether they might be shipped back to parent club.        

Today,on the other hand, in Bowkett and McNally we have two gentlemen whom you feel that you wouldn''t want to meet down a dark Norwich alley at night. Our owners are, at last freed up to do what they do best. That is, to champion the name of Norwich City in the corridors of the great and the good. We have a CEO who lets the results on the pitch do the talking, we have a manager the envy of League 1 clubs last season, and whom I am sure will go onto prove himself as a great coach in the Championship and beyond. We have our own squad of players who want to be here,or are otherwise politely shown the door, irrespective of their seniority. Like Arnie, we''re back.

The one thing we mustn''t do is repeat the mistakes of the past in the euphoria of our current success. We mustn''t let the feelgood factor cloud our judgements. Our owners need to be led gentlely by the hand away from the tiller of our NCFC ship. There is still a massive role that they can play in our club, as money raisers, as the public image of our club, as roving ambassadors - but not as hands-on managers.

Those dark days have to be left well behind us.

Yellow Hammer

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a few points i would like to make. Roeders loans just about saved us the year before relegation so the board had no option but to back him  in his loans. If they would of opposed him we might of got relegated anyway and you would be on here gushing about how the great saviour Roeder of the season 2 years ago that saved us and wasnt given the chance to do so again.

 

Delia has been the main owner and provided us with a competitive budget in every championship season we have faced, it is not up to her to oppose managers footballing desicions. Think about it the cook telling the footballing pros how to coach and manage a team. We would be even more of a laughing stock.

 

Where i do agree is that the operational directors of the previous board namly doncaster was not the right man for his job. And now we do have the right man and are on the up rather than stagnent or downwards. But doncaster did presided over our most successful period in the last 15 years. Our promotion and premiership season. We also bayed for the blood of Nigel Worthington when we were positioned 9th in the championship. That shows that we had expected such high standards from the team and the Club. And how well we we had been doing in recent history under doncaster and delia.

Id much rather Delia than ticket tout and arms dealer Marcus Evans. She will always do the best for the club and she genuinly has passion for our club. She is as much a fan as you or I.

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You should have stopped after the words ''forgive Delia''

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Yes of course there have been a lot of bad decisions but I dont see what thats got to do with loving Deliah and the personal finacial contribution she has made. Nigel Worthington managed a side that won the league and got us into the premiership. I wouldn''t defend what happened next but do we yet know whether Paul Lambert et al are going to prove to be any less "lucky" than Worthy was? A after all last seasons achievements in league 1 do not yet compare. Lets not get too carried away yet.

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Dont think its entirely fair to blame Delia, you make some points that we''ve covered thousands of times on here.  The thing is, with football you pay your money you take your chances.  They''ve got it wrong sometimes and got it right sometimes, but you cannot doubt Delia has the clubs best intrests at heart.  I doubt she wants you to love her or forgive her, but she will want you to be 100% behind the team regardless of what players or managers are out there. 

The whole Roeder thing was too much of a gamble.  At the time i could sort of see what he was trying to do, ie use the budget in the best way possible by getting in the most promising youngsters, however, out of the likes of Kennedy, Omozuzi, Gibbs, Lupoli, Lee, Mooney, Bertrand, none of them have done anything of note since. 

Grant was a terrible decision at the time.  A manager with no track record and we''re hoping to get promoted.

We should enjoy the stability we have at the moment and the progress we have made.  I really feel we can push on like Leicester did, we have some reasonable opening fixtures and with a bit of luck, could be sitting in a handy position by the end of September/October.  Teams in this division dont seem to be making any big moves in the transfer market yet and we''re talking like our business is nearly done and its only early July.  Incredible.

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Hello Yellowhammer, thanks for the interesting message. This reminds me of something I read on this message board a while ago.

Would you like to expand on the post where you said you had David McNally''s telephone number through a old Fulham contact?  I recall that you posted that you called him when the Norwich CEO job became available. Unfortunately I can''t find this message, but I''m 100% sure that I read this last year sometime.

Of course if this wasn''t you my apologies for the mistake.

Thanks,

Tim

 

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I have never really been a fan of Delia anyway and at this moment in time I don''t have any feelings towards her one way or the other, I think her heart is in the right place but she has done her time at the club imo and it.s time for someone else to have a go. Having said that I am fairly pleased with the signings we have made and think we have a realistic chance of making the play offs, if we were to be taken over and money was avaliable to spend in January I think we''d have a decent chance of making the top two.

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PEOPLE LISTEN MORE IF I TYPE IN BIG LETTERS AND BOLD. [:O]

What the heck is going on, this is like 2007 all over again, has Yellow just been woken up from a deep sleep or something?

People bemoan Doncaster but I am going to break the mold here, his biggest side kick was Munby and I think he has as much to answer to as the doomsinger himself.

What it needed was some form of fresh impetus. Someone argues that we were given a competetive budget every season since relegation - I would argue that considering the last summer Worthy was here he bought one player - Lee Croft.

Since then we may as well have burned money because Grant, Roeder and to some extent Gunn only bought in quick stop-gaps. They didn''t really aid the future of the club. If Roeder had done well and stayed for another season do you really think more loans would have been acceptable?

At the end of the day so far as I can see Delia has tried to let the footballing people deal with the footballing stuff and try to help more with the financial side of the club. You can not argue that she hasn''t aided that, not just with her own money but with the other ventures that appear to be bringing in money to the club.

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[quote user="City penguin"]

a few points i would like to make. Roeders loans just about saved us the year before relegation so the board had no option but to back him  in his loans. If they would of opposed him we might of got relegated anyway and you would be on here gushing about how the great saviour Roeder of the season 2 years ago that saved us and wasnt given the chance to do so again.

 

Delia has been the main owner and provided us with a competitive budget in every championship season we have faced, it is not up to her to oppose managers footballing desicions. Think about it the cook telling the footballing pros how to coach and manage a team. We would be even more of a laughing stock.

 

Where i do agree is that the operational directors of the previous board namly doncaster was not the right man for his job. And now we do have the right man and are on the up rather than stagnent or downwards. But doncaster did presided over our most successful period in the last 15 years. Our promotion and premiership season. We also bayed for the blood of Nigel Worthington when we were positioned 9th in the championship. That shows that we had expected such high standards from the team and the Club. And how well we we had been doing in recent history under doncaster and delia.

Id much rather Delia than ticket tout and arms dealer Marcus Evans. She will always do the best for the club and she genuinly has passion for our club. She is as much a fan as you or I.

[/quote]

 

Ok, my post was a long one but you need to go back and read it more carefully. Firstly you are merely speculating about what may or may not have happened. I would rather argue about what did happen. The board had plenty of options of what to do with Roeder''s disastrous loan policy. They could have continued to have backed him, or more rightly they could have sacked him, which eventually they did. So in the end they did oppose him, whereas you suggest they should not have opposed him.

It is not up to Delia to make, modify or oppose footballing decisions, I think the first half of my post was making this very same point. She, and the rest of the board, along with Doncaster were not qualified to do so. And that is why I called way back in 2004 for a director of football whose main  funtion was to bridge the gap between what happened on the field and what decisions were made in the board room. The two cannot exist as two mutually separate entities.

I think the evidence suggests that out brief rise and fall over the past fifteen years coincided with the appointment and departure of Nigel Worthington. We did have a period of what today seems like relative succes under Bruce Rioch but which at the time seemed to fall short of expectations, but the club under Delia could not hang onto Rioch, nor could they prevent Worthington from being everybodies favourite scapegoat for our relegation. Remember, Delia and her motely crew were at the helm for all of these fifteen years, and were the immediate managers of our coaches, apponted by them, controlled by them, and eventually sacked by them. So they really do have the responsibility for what happened.

I covered that old chesnut about Delia''s passion. It simply is not a get out clause from responsibility. I don''t think she ever made a correct decision that was the result of some carefully thought out plan. The past few years have been more like FC Panic and she got lucky a few times. The danger is that in the excitement of promotion and having the best young manager in the country, we can easily foget where it all went so wrong. I''m reminding you so that it does not happen again.

I concede that the lady''s role at the club has changed since McNally''s arrival and she is now doing those things she is good at. It''s clear that if the right people are in the right job then they will be happy and will perform better than if they''re being asked to do something they''re not good at. That''s where we used to be. So I won''t be joining First Wizard''s love in just yet, thank you, because the principals are, if not steering the ship, they are still on the bridge.

 

ps. I used a bigger font because typing a long thread was a strain on the eyes. Sorry for the offence.

 

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Yellow Hammer, you''re right. I think you should organise a meeting at St Andrews Hall of like-minded angry nutters to agree that something MUST be done and then march as a pitchfork-wielding mob to the old windmill on the hill behind Carrow Road.

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What an interesting thread and reflection on the progress made over the last year!

I am not normally moved to post very often but this debate reminded me of the frustration I felt this time last year at the lack of coherent strategy for both the footballing and the business side of the club.

I said at the time of Doncaster/ Munby''s demise that the CEO appointment was the single most important ''signing'' probably in the club''s history and suggested ways in which the recruitment process could be tailored to ensure we ended up with someone who had the right attributes...

Frankly, I was staggered when McNally was appointed as he was so obviously the right man and was so different to the bureaucratic lawyer type that I expected.

I did not agree with the manner of Gunn''s dismissal but, if you appoint a rottweiler, you have to expect him to bare his teeth and events proved him 100% correct and the rest, as they say, is history.

Contrary to the title of this thread, I can forgive Delia (love is a step too far!) because she did try to seek advice from people who should have known better and, no doubt, thought that she was acting in the best interests of the club while investing a considerable chunk of her personal wealth to further her ambitions for NCFC.

Unfortunately, a modern football club is a complex enterprise and requires competent and specialist management and direction which she and MWJ were just not able to provide. For whatever reason, she has finally recognised this and recruited the necessary calibre of people to take the club forward.

When all is said and done, I would far rather have someone who, with all their faults, is transparent, visible and a club supporter than some faceless investor with a hidden agenda which probably involves rape and pillage!

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Good posts....and your Yellow Hammer has hit the rusty nail square on the head....

Some are still in denial, as you can see.

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LOL, nice to see the Norwich branch of the Misogynists Club is still going strong after their President''s shock departure.

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[quote user="Mustachio Furioso"]LOL, nice to see the Norwich branch of the Misogynists Club is still going strong after their President''s shock departure.[/quote]

Was Doncaster female?....

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Strange then that the new CEO and Chairman have also advocated prudency  and investment in fixed assets and that in the future UEFA will only allow club owners to invest in fixed assets.

Strange then that the owners were suddenly responsible for football decisions in the past when they have always made it clear that they don''t interfere in football decisions.

Strange then that the owners were culpable for previous appointments but not credited for going out and getting the new CEO and Chairman. 

Sad that in this tabloid media world people only have the intellectual capacity to see issues in black and white when reality is grey.

 

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[quote user="T"]

Strange then that the new CEO and Chairman have also advocated prudency  and investment in fixed assets and that in the future UEFA will only allow club owners to invest in fixed assets.

Strange then that the owners were suddenly responsible for football decisions in the past when they have always made it clear that they don''t interfere in football decisions.

Strange then that the owners were culpable for previous appointments but not credited for going out and getting the new CEO and Chairman. 

Sad that in this tabloid media world people only have the intellectual capacity to see issues in black and white when reality is grey.

 

[/quote]

Prudency?.....Strange.

 

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Right Orville we want to sell our shares or get major investment .

Ok I will try for you

Several months later and no fish on the hook.

Well if you will take my advice as the good ship is not only now up the creek missing paddles  but also badly shipping water, I would get a new guy in to "sort" matters for you. Happen to know a guy on gardening leave at present. First class chap, knows football and is ruthless with it.

Get him on board, bring in one of the local guys with experience of business at a high level (preferably turn a poacher into a gamekeeper)and let them sort the club out.Root and branch as it were. Debt under control and all that.

Once this is done and a little success under your girdle then PERHAPS we might just have a maketable product.

In the meantime keep your head down and out of the limelight and if you ever want to see your "investment" back you may have to speculate a little more.

Miss any of the above and your money is all gone along with your reputation and administration could well be on the cards.

Just my view of a "possible" scenario[:D]

Strange that now talk of money coming in has started again.

 

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"Strange then that the new CEO and Chairman have also advocated

prudency  and investment in fixed assets and that in the future UEFA

will only allow club owners to invest in fixed assets.

Strange then that the owners were suddenly responsible for football

decisions in the past when they have always made it clear that they

don''t interfere in football decisions.

Strange then that the owners were culpable for previous appointments

but not credited for going out and getting the new CEO and Chairman. 

Sad that in this tabloid media world people only have the

intellectual capacity to see issues in black and white when reality is

grey."

How dare you bring sense and reasoned argument to a thread about Delia ?

ps I don''t think the ''carpet biters'' actually see it in black and white, more a deep crimson through the red mist

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[quote user="City1st"]"Strange then that the new CEO and Chairman have also advocated prudency  and investment in fixed assets and that in the future UEFA will only allow club owners to invest in fixed assets.

Strange then that the owners were suddenly responsible for football decisions in the past when they have always made it clear that they don''t interfere in football decisions.

Strange then that the owners were culpable for previous appointments but not credited for going out and getting the new CEO and Chairman. 

Sad that in this tabloid media world people only have the intellectual capacity to see issues in black and white when reality is grey."


How dare you bring sense and reasoned argument to a thread about Delia ?





ps I don''t think the ''carpet biters'' actually see it in black and white, more a deep crimson through the red mist





[/quote]

It''s only a reasoned argument IF you believe what he writes.

He has no more "facts" than the detractors do.

Me I can take them or leave them BUT even Nutty agrees you should NOT forget what is fact in the past to make sure that it does NOT happen again in the future.

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It''s a good post yellow hammer and I enjoyed it. And I agree with many points you make. But I agree with City 1st too in a way. The title suggesting blame and forgiveness rather lets you down. Because although you say you''d rather deal in facts than to speculate it does rather seem that the reasons you cannot love or forgive Delia are pure speculation. The simplistic view would be to say that Delia (and MWJ) own the club and the buck stops with them. That would mean everything you liked about the club was down to them and everything you dislike is their fault. You and I both know life isn''t that simple.

In the 15 years since Chase took us down to the depths of what is now The Championship we have only finished in the top ten of that league or higher on 6 occasions. Five of those seasons those seasons were under Worthy. Or if you like every complete Worthy season including the one where he wasn’t welcome. So you are right to say not hanging on to him was a mistake. Even though those who believe you hit the nail on the head certainly don’t agree with that particular nail that you whacked so good and true. The next three managerial appointments ended up being terrible choices despite the fact we were assured that “anyone would be better than Worthy”. But of course managerial appointments are notoriously hit and miss. Just look at the difficulty Manchester United had in replacing Sir Matt Busby. Ultimately it took them 25 years to get back to where their fans believe they should be. I reckon that’s why they cling so tightly on to Fergy.

So the part Worthy played in our most successful years of the last 15 is at least factual. And despite the claims of many on here to in anyway implicate him in any of the other 10 years can only be speculation. Were the Turners involved in any of these better years? Or did their presence coincide with our meltdown into the third tier? Unless you know something I don’t the failure to hang on to them being a bad or good thing can only be speculation. And what of the man they replaced? Was Barry Skipper making way for them a good thing or a bad thing? Although much criticised on these boards I would suggest all known evidence suggests losing him was a bad thing but it’s only speculation and certainly not fact. And how about “Bob The Grocer”? Was he a good appointment or a bad one? If you made graph of the clubs progress under his chairmanship what would you see? Other than that we can only speculate.

And we could go on. So if you only deal in facts what is it that you can''t forgive Delia for?

 

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The new CEO has used the prudency word in interviews - Fact

The new Chairman has said he would not support the wages levels of the premiership promotion year - Fact

The club is investing in more fixed assets - Fact 

UEFA are advocating restricting owners to only spending more on investing in fixed assets and youth development- Fact

The owners have never advocated interfering in football decisions - Fact

The owners have always been ultimately responsible for the appointment of all executive staff both good and bad - Fact

Thoese who seek a balanced portrayal of reality seek facts whilst the "detracters" rely on myths and selected facts

I for one have not forgotten that we have previously been promoted to the premiership, fact,  and I do hope that it does happen again but it appears that the NCISA does not as they know failure increases membership and gives them something to whinge about. That doesn''t mean that I have forgotten that we have been relegated to the third tier for the first time in my life either. Just that there are inevitably two sides to every story

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[quote]

The new CEO has used the prudency word in interviews - Fact

The new Chairman has said he would not support the wages levels of

the premiership promotion year - Fact

The club is investing in more fixed assets - Fact 

UEFA are advocating restricting owners to only spending more on

investing in fixed assets and youth development- Fact

The owners have never advocated interfering in football decisions -

Fact

The owners have always been ultimately responsible for the

appointment of all executive staff both good and bad - Fact

Thoese who seek a balanced portrayal of reality seek facts whilst the

"detracters" rely on myths and selected facts,[/quote]

Aren''t these just your "selected facts" ?

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[quote user="T"]

The new CEO has used the prudency word in interviews - Fact also heard him use all sorts of words including 4 letter ones

The new Chairman has said he would not support the wages levels of the premiership promotion year - Fact Not relevant

The club is investing in more fixed assets - Fact Is that the new seats?

UEFA are advocating restricting owners to only spending more on investing in fixed assets and youth development- Fact

The owners have never advocated interfering in football decisions - Fact assumption

The owners have always been ultimately responsible for the appointment of all executive staff both good and bad - Fact

Thoese who seek a balanced portrayal of reality seek facts whilst the "detracters" rely on myths and selected facts

I for one have not forgotten that we have previously been promoted to the premiership, fact,  and I do hope that it does happen again but it appears that the NCISA does not as they know failure increases membership and gives them something to whinge about. That doesn''t mean that I have forgotten that we have been relegated to the third tier for the first time in my life either. Just that there are inevitably two sides to every story

[/quote]

What the hell has NCISA got to do with it.

"T" you are at it again!!

Some of your facts are not facts just your assumptions and taking media quotes as facts.

But never mind use whatever for whatever reasons you have.

*This is my view and in no way has been discussed with any member of NCISA

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I thought you were on my side. They are indeed selected facts but the point is that they contradict the supposed "facts" of the OP. This then leads to the nail on the head cliche which actually means that you also agree with someone else''s pre-concieved predjudices.

These arguments are as ridiculous as the rants about Capello being wholly responsible for England when anyone who saw the game last night would appreciate it is more complex than that as are the realities about the state of football coaching in the UK.

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I think that the new chairman saying that he would take a more prudent approach on wages than the previous regime is relevant.

Yes - it is the seats and yes they are fixed assets. Fixed assets are those things, as many people appear to be unclear on this point, that you invest in to increase the future revenues of the club so that you have more to spend on players.

When have the owners advocated that they interfere in football decisions as the OP claims?

...and the NCISA has everything to do with it because this is a message board and mentions of NCISA never fails to wind you up!

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[quote user="T"]

I think that the new chairman saying that he would take a more prudent approach on wages than the previous regime is relevant.

Yes - it is the seats and yes they are fixed assets. Fixed assets are those things, as many people appear to be unclear on this point, that you invest in to increase the future revenues of the club so that you have more to spend on players.

When have the owners advocated that they interfere in football decisions as the OP claims?

...and the NCISA has everything to do with it because this is a message board and mentions of NCISA never fails to wind you up!

[/quote]

Very wrong it does not wind me up but it does detract from your argument, such as it is!

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As well as using the term "prudent", from memory didn''t McNally also recently say something along the lines of the old regime were happy with consolidation in League 1 but that was not for the new regime who wanted promotion back to the Championship, that the new regime is going to adopt the same attitude in the Championship and that it is going to concentrate on the core business of Norwich City FC which is football......As Blah Blah Blah says even the positive posters have "Selective Fact Syndrome". Unhappy as I was with our relegation to the third tier of English football, which we must not forget, and much as I am not the biggest fan of Delia, it is wrong to blame any one person or any one event for our demise, we tend to live in the past to much in this country, we really ought to start looking forward.....

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So you disagree with the premise that the world is not complex and there is not two sides to every story?

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