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Davo

Substance over style, result over entertainment

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This is a subject that I''ve been thinkign about a lot over this off season and somethign which I feel has been highlighted by this world cup.

Now I admit I''m a bit of a football purist and over the last few years I''m getting more and more like this. I believe that football should be played by two teams who go out to win the game. I believe this is what Norwich try to do. We''ve never been a team who is much good at taking a 1-0 lead and sitting back to defend it. Yes there are times when we''ve had to do it (Charlton away last season for example) but I don''t think it''s part of the culture of the club to play defensivly. We are known for trying to play football in the right way with our attacking passing game and I like that we try to play this way.

Now I watched a lot of this World Cup and it was clear to see that the majority of teams weren''t interested in winning they just didn''t want to loose. Switzerland and Greece are the two biggest examples of this in this world cup. Now the argument in favour for the way the Swiss played would be that against Spain if they had tried to play football they would of got hammered and by being defensive they got a bit of luck and won 1-0. However when they came up against a much poorer team in Honduras they couldn''t change styles and eventually drew 0-0 in a dire match that eventually put them out of the competition. Greece were the same. When they played South Korea they were so defensive that  once they''d gone 1-0 down there was never a hope of them winning against a side which in all fairness actually tried to play football and deserved to win. I don''t blame these teams for playing that way as afterall in international football you have to play with the players you have as tehre are no transfers but what about club teams? What is Bolton''s excuse for playing defensive football? Sure when they first went up to the prem it was probably a good move but what about now? They are an established premier side who have had years to change their style and bring in better players but instead they hired the likes of Megson who wouldn''t know how to attack if he got locked in a room for a week with Cruyff, Pele and Maradonna. Then you have teams like MK Dons who are just 11 thugs who try to win just by kicking the other team off the pitch, ok I don''t expect them to play like Barcelona but this isn''t what football is about surely?

I''m glad Spain won last ngiht as Holland have no excuse for playing they way they did. They have players who can pass and play a high standard of football but they resulted to playing dirty brand of anti-football and rightly lost.

I''m not against a pragmatic type of football, you play to your strengths after all but surely football is about entertainment just as it''s about winning? Yes I would take a scrappy 1-0 win every now and then but I would honestly prefer to loose playing a good quality of football then win playing the bolton style. I just wonder am I alone in what I think or do otehrs feel like me?

Davo

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"surely football is about entertainment just as it''s about winning"

No, it''s nothing to do with entertainment, it''s all about winning.

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There''s a time and a place for playing attractive football and a time and a place for getting the job done. Ask Tony Mowbray when he was at West Brom, getting hammered week in and week out in the Premiership and refusing to deviate from his principles.

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I think it''s a really hard one Davo.I''d love to say ''Id rather us play good football and lose, than play crap football and win'' but in reality that will never be the case. As much as i love the attacking, fluent passing game that football should be, i think its a playing style which is becoming less and less popular.Successful teams are starting to be 6ft rugby-build players hoofing it up to the opponents penalty area. Shame, but it seems to work.As they say, a ''beautiful loss is still a loss'' and thats the crux of the matter. If we played brilliantly for 46 games but still lost most and got relegated, people would be claiming we''re crap. If we play awfully for 46 games yet scrape into the playoffs, its a successful season.

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I''d sooner City won every week than played well. After all, I''ve lost count of the number of times I''ve tried to console myself after a bad result by reminding myself that they played good football. It doesn''t help. [:P]

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I don''t think we play unattractive football under Lambert. He''s not an Aidy Boothroyd or Tony Pulis who simply can''t play anything except a strong, big, muscular side.

Having said that, I''d rather enjoy a successful season than endure a poor season playing good football. I remember watching some of the football from the season we got relegated under Roeder. We played some good passing football but with no outlet. Results started going against us, confidence bombed, the good football stopped because the players didn''t have the confidence to continue playing it and we were relegated.

Winning creates confident players and I think in turn better football.

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We arguably didnt play well in a lot of games last season, Stockport H, Brighton A, Hartlepool H and even both Huddersfield games we were outplayed for large parts of the game, but i certainly wouldnt change those performances for entertainment. We did what we needed to do to win the game. I remember having a big moan about the way we played against Hartlepool and Stockport after the games but wouldnt want to play them again just to try and entertain a bit more.Also Lambert always came out after the game and said we did what we needed to did which was win. Lambert has us playing football to win, any attractiveness is just a bonus.

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At the end of the day it''s a results based sport.  Holland last night obviously were scared of Spain''s quick passing football and they would have seen teams try to put ten men behind the ball and eventually fail so they had to adopt a different tactic.  I know this tactic wasn''t right and the best team won eventually but it got Holland all the way to 116 minutes.  If I was Dutch and Holland won last night with the dirty tactics they used I wouldn''t care because they done what was needed to win.  Likewise if Lambert decided against a team the only way to stop them was to kick them and we won 1-0 I wouldn''t care.

I know quick, passing, attacking football is suppost to be the ''correct'' way to play but if you can''t win doing that then you have to do what you can to get a result because if not you fail.

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And therein lies the problem with a lot of current football fans. Would rather lose and play good football? Do me a favour. That''s done Holland well for the last 30 years in international football hasn''t it? I''m sure we''d all love playing in the lower leagues because we''d rather lose and play well.

Football is all about winning. It''s not about entertainment. If you want to be entertained go to the theatre or a concert where their aim is to entertain their crowd and ensure they have a good time.

I watch football because I love it. You can find good things in any game, be it some good tackles, a good organised back line, or just a right or left back that constantly overlaps and puts crosses into the box.

I would rather have an entire season next season with all 1-0 wins than lose playing good football.

This is why people boo. They''re not being "entertained," they''re not getting value for their money, they''re not seeing amazing football. You want that, go watch Man United with all the people from Surrey. Oh wait, even Man Utd play bad football at times just to get a result. Best just head to the theatre instead.

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[quote user="CallsignViper"]That''s done Holland well for the last 30 years in international football hasn''t it?.[/quote]

Arguably it''s done them just as well as their current style of play if not better. I mean they got to two finals and have gone down in football folklore. This team will only be remembered as a team that lost to a team who played most like that great Dutch team of the 70''s. Dutch fans were complaining during the world cup that their team wasn''t playing with the style they were used to. Brazillian fans were the same after Dunga''s "winning is all that matters" approach. That approach got them no where. Sure as someone said Holland lasted 116 minutes but they still lost.

I''m not saying I don''t like it when we play badly and win. I''m talking about the style of play. No team can be expected to play beautiful football 100% of the time but are people really advocating playing boring defensive football all the time just so we don''t loose rather than playing attacking football and trying to win? I maintain that I would still rather we lost trying to actually win the game playing nice football than if we won 1-0 by playing crappy defensive football.

Davo

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[quote user="Davo"]

[quote user="CallsignViper"]That''s done Holland well for the last 30 years in international football hasn''t it?.[/quote]

Arguably it''s done them just as well as their current style of play if not better. I mean they got to two finals and have gone down in football folklore. This team will only be remembered as a team that lost to a team who played most like that great Dutch team of the 70''s. Dutch fans were complaining during the world cup that their team wasn''t playing with the style they were used to. Brazillian fans were the same after Dunga''s "winning is all that matters" approach. That approach got them no where. Sure as someone said Holland lasted 116 minutes but they still lost.

I''m not saying I don''t like it when we play badly and win. I''m talking about the style of play. No team can be expected to play beautiful football 100% of the time but are people really advocating playing boring defensive football all the time just so we don''t loose rather than playing attacking football and trying to win? I maintain that I would still rather we lost trying to actually win the game playing nice football than if we won 1-0 by playing crappy defensive football.

Davo

[/quote]

Surely though, had the Dutch played in the style of the 70''s counterparts, they would have gone out in a earlier round? I say adopt the style that suits your players. Germany are a good example of this.

Also, I disagree with your statement that teams that look to keep it tight aren''t trying to win the game, they''re just taking a different appraoch to winning the game. How many teams have actually got anywhere with a gung-ho approach?

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[quote user="Davo"]

I''m not against a pragmatic type of football, you play to your strengths after all but surely football is about entertainment just as it''s about winning? Yes I would take a scrappy 1-0 win every now and then but I would honestly prefer to loose playing a good quality of football then win playing the bolton style. I just wonder am I alone in what I think or do otehrs feel like me?

Davo

[/quote]

Couldnt disagree more Davo! If i was given the choice of a scrappy 1-0 win, or lose 4-3 but playing brilliantly, i would take the win any day. I dont go to CR every other week thinking to myself ''i really want to see a great game today with both teams going for it, and as long as we play well, i dont care about the result'' I always hope that we can win the game no matter how we do it. Yes it would be the perfect game if we win and play brilliantly, and knock in 4/5 goals, but what ever the score is and how ever you play, a win is always the first target. Which game did you feel the most satisfaction from last year, Leeds away, after dominating it and playing some great football, but losing, or after the Southend home game where we didnt play well at all, but Oli came on with 5 minutes to go and scored twice to give us a 2-1 win? I was happiest after the win despite us playing a lot worse in that game, and I''m sure you did too!

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The players play to win, the fans pay to be entertained.

It has a lot to do with the adrenaline rush and excitement generated on a saturday afternoon, and the feeling that youve actually ''enjoyed'' the 90 mins.

There were a few home matches last season that were so boring and unentertaining, the Leeds home match for example that even tho we won 1-0, ive left in a more positive mood after a different result, a 2-2 draw or perhaps even a loss, but weve played a blinder.

I remember a few years back around the promotion season with Worthy, year before or after, or in between the playoff final and title season, where we lost 4-1 at home to Burnley, i think it was. It was a cracking game, full of incident and contentious moments, we played really well, their keeper had a blinder, Burnley got a penalty or 2 and were lucky with their 4 goals.

Point is tho it was hugely entertaining, and while im a hardcore city fan who gets unbelievably passionate when we win and lose, sometimes as a prerequisite of my money spent, i just wanna leave after 90 mins being entertained and on a positive note, win lose or draw.

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[quote user="Barclayman"]The players play to win, the fans pay to be entertained.

It has a lot to do with the adrenaline rush and excitement generated on a saturday afternoon, and the feeling that youve actually ''enjoyed'' the 90 mins.

There were a few home matches last season that were so boring and unentertaining, the Leeds home match for example that even tho we won 1-0, ive left in a more positive mood after a different result, a 2-2 draw or perhaps even a loss, but weve played a blinder.

I remember a few years back around the promotion season with Worthy, year before or after, or in between the playoff final and title season, where we lost 4-1 at home to Burnley, i think it was. It was a cracking game, full of incident and contentious moments, we played really well, their keeper had a blinder, Burnley got a penalty or 2 and were lucky with their 4 goals.

Point is tho it was hugely entertaining, and while im a hardcore city fan who gets unbelievably passionate when we win and lose, sometimes as a prerequisite of my money spent, i just wanna leave after 90 mins being entertained and on a positive note, win lose or draw.[/quote]

Forget the Leeds home match bit, forgot that Martin scored in the last minute and i went mental, the match was horrible tho and deeply disappointing. Result worth it tho, and come to think of it i think im contradicting what i said, so sod it, the result is everything!!!!!!

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[quote user="Barclayman"]The players play to win, the fans pay to be entertained. It has a lot to do with the adrenaline rush and excitement generated on a saturday afternoon, and the feeling that youve actually ''enjoyed'' the 90 mins. There were a few home matches last season that were so boring and unentertaining, the Leeds home match for example that even tho we won 1-0, ive left in a more positive mood after a different result, a 2-2 draw or perhaps even a loss, but weve played a blinder. I remember a few years back around the promotion season with Worthy, year before or after, or in between the playoff final and title season, where we lost 4-1 at home to Burnley, i think it was. It was a cracking game, full of incident and contentious moments, we played really well, their keeper had a blinder, Burnley got a penalty or 2 and were lucky with their 4 goals. Point is tho it was hugely entertaining, and while im a hardcore city fan who gets unbelievably passionate when we win and lose, sometimes as a prerequisite of my money spent, i just wanna leave after 90 mins being entertained and on a positive note, win lose or draw.[/quote]

Yes, so good that Worthy was sacked immediately after the match!

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[quote user="Canary Wharf Canary"]

[quote user="Barclayman"]The players play to win, the fans pay to be entertained. It has a lot to do with the adrenaline rush and excitement generated on a saturday afternoon, and the feeling that youve actually ''enjoyed'' the 90 mins. There were a few home matches last season that were so boring and unentertaining, the Leeds home match for example that even tho we won 1-0, ive left in a more positive mood after a different result, a 2-2 draw or perhaps even a loss, but weve played a blinder. I remember a few years back around the promotion season with Worthy, year before or after, or in between the playoff final and title season, where we lost 4-1 at home to Burnley, i think it was. It was a cracking game, full of incident and contentious moments, we played really well, their keeper had a blinder, Burnley got a penalty or 2 and were lucky with their 4 goals. Point is tho it was hugely entertaining, and while im a hardcore city fan who gets unbelievably passionate when we win and lose, sometimes as a prerequisite of my money spent, i just wanna leave after 90 mins being entertained and on a positive note, win lose or draw.[/quote]

Yes, so good that Worthy was sacked immediately after the match!

[/quote]

I remember that game.  We were awful!  I think thats a bad example to use!

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I think he was possibly talking about the 4-1 defeat at home to Bradford in the play-off season which more matches his description.  It was one of the most bizarre games I''ve ever seen.

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Football is a results business.

 

All about the end result.

 

Yes of couse no one wants to see kick and rush football but I remember that for most of Roedernowhere inspired relegation campiagn 2 seasons ago we played some good football in midfield, indeed wew dominated the midfield in a lot of games but suffered from being not good enough in the final 3rd. I recall the Watford away game that season where completed outplayed the home side, they hardly got a kick yet we lost 2-1!

 

Last season we were poor at Brighton for most of the game yet won 2-1. Won at Charlton when they completed dominated most of the game and we had about 9 players in defence!

 

Now which of them 3 results would you rather have?

 

.

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You''ve got a point Flashheart. Ultimately I go cause I''m a diehard Norwich fan, otherwise I''d of missed lots and lots of games since the mid 90''s if I was going for the entertainment!

 

I well remember Norwich a couple of years back saying they couldn''t watch Stoke every week.

 

- I''d of loved it if we had been like Stoke in the last 3 seasons cause we''d now be an established Premiership club and Carrow Road would of possibly been expanded to over 30,000! 

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[quote user="Davo"]Surely football is about entertainment just as it''s about winning? [/quote]If I''m watching a game as a neutral, then yes.If I''m watching Norwich City then hell no, it''s about winning.

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In order of preference1. Win beautifully2. Win scrappily3. Draw beautifully4. Draw scrappily5. Lose - beautifully or otherwise, I don''t care how.  I just don''t like it.

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[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Davo"]Surely football is about entertainment just as it''s about winning? [/quote]If I''m watching a game as a neutral, then yes.If I''m watching Norwich City then hell no, it''s about winning.[/quote]That''s pretty much my outlook, chops. [Y]

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[quote user="Barclayman"]The players play to win, the fans pay to be entertained.

It has a lot to do with the adrenaline rush and excitement generated on a saturday afternoon, and the feeling that youve actually ''enjoyed'' the 90 mins.

There were a few home matches last season that were so boring and unentertaining, the Leeds home match for example that even tho we won 1-0, ive left in a more positive mood after a different result, a 2-2 draw or perhaps even a loss, but weve played a blinder.

I remember a few years back around the promotion season with Worthy, year before or after, or in between the playoff final and title season, where we lost 4-1 at home to Burnley, i think it was. It was a cracking game, full of incident and contentious moments, we played really well, their keeper had a blinder, Burnley got a penalty or 2 and were lucky with their 4 goals.

Point is tho it was hugely entertaining, and while im a hardcore city fan who gets unbelievably passionate when we win and lose, sometimes as a prerequisite of my money spent, i just wanna leave after 90 mins being entertained and on a positive note, win lose or draw.[/quote]Really? Better feeling after a draw or a loss than beating the team taunting us for most of the season about how they would run away with the league for them then to sensationally mess it up, really struggle to hold onto 2nd place let alone win the league - and the final nail in the coffin - losing in the battle of the top 2 with a last minute winner that seriously doubted their promotion chances at all.So many reasons i wanted to win that game that day - the behaviour of their fans before the match, spainboys famous post, the general consensus among the media that Leeds were simply the best in the league and deserved to back in the premiership just ''because they''re Leeds'', the 2-1 away loss after playing well, all the talk about Beckford being this top, premiership quality player when we had 2 better strikers, to really make them worry about not going up at all after being in the best position they''d been in in 3 years and of course to virtually send us up and continue our momentum.Cant remember leaving many other games in a more positive mood. Script couldnt have been written any better. It was though we went meant to play an average game but win it in the last couple of mins to really shove it in their faces. If anything playing unattractive football was all the more satisfying for edging it in the end because no matter how much we went on about deserving to win at Elland Rd, Leeds fans were still loving rubbing it in that we lost. Only difference from the 2 games is they got lucky at home, we scored a great goal at home. Maybe its just me but their moaning they were the better team just made the victory all the sweeter.So a few seconds of greatness in an otherwise pretty boring game or 85mins of dominance only to be undone by a bad goal kick? No amount of good play in a draw or loss wouldve beaten the feeling after that game. In fact the only time i felt better after a game was Col U away for obvious reasons, after that Southend home would be next when we played poorly but got away with it. ''Getting out of jail'' results were more satisfying for me than the convincing performances and easy wins. 4-0 against Orient and 5-1 against Bristol R were great games with some great goals but the memories that stick in my mind more are all the close calls, winning against Brentford with 10 men, coming back to beat Brighton away and Walsall away and obviously beating Charlton away.I suppose it depends how you define entertainment, i personally dont need good free flowing football to entertain me when supporting city, it would be nice but a win will do just as well and leaving the ground knowing we''ve got another 3 points and are 3 points closer to promotion/safety than 90mins ago is plenty for me to satisfied about.

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Chops, I would agree with your list. However people still seem to be getting "level of performance" mixed up with "style".

I''m not talking about playing well or playing badly. I''m talking about playing attacking football vs defensive football. Short neat passing vs hoofball. Trying to win a game Vs playing for the draw.

Some of the examples people have given of games, Brighton, Huddersfield and Southend. Those games were more about the players not playing well than style of football. All three of those games mentioned were ones we fell behind and went on to win those games. If anything they prove my point. During those games there was never any doubt that once we had equalised that we would settle for the draw even in two of those games when we equalised with less than 10 minutes to go.

I would argue that the only match where we set out our stall to defend a one goal lead was against Charlton. Yes we defended superbly and got lucky a few times. Maybe others out there can come up with more examples where we set out our stall to take the lead and were happy to just sit back and defend it?

My comment about winning scrappily vs loosing was ill-advised as people seem to focused on this more than anything else. I still however maintain my point that I would rather be where we are now and trying to play football than if we played like Bolton or Stoke in the prem.

Football (unless your actually playing it) is a spectator sport. All spectator sports are a form of entertainment. If it''s not entertainment then what is it? If it''s not entertainment then why is it on TV?

Davo

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The players play to win, the fans pay to be entertained. It has a lot to do with the adrenaline rush and excitement generated on a saturday afternoon, and the feeling that youve actually ''enjoyed'' the 90 mins. There were a few home matches last season that were so boring and unentertaining, the Leeds home match for example that even tho we won 1-0, ive left in a more positive mood after a different result, a 2-2 draw or perhaps even a loss, but weve played a blinder. I remember a few years back around the promotion season with Worthy, year before or after, or in between the playoff final and title season, where we lost 4-1 at home to Burnley, i think it was. It was a cracking game, full of incident and contentious moments, we played really well, their keeper had a blinder, Burnley got a penalty or 2 and were lucky with their 4 goals. Point is tho it was hugely entertaining, and while im a hardcore city fan who gets unbelievably passionate when we win and lose, sometimes as a prerequisite of my money spent, i just wanna leave after 90 mins being entertained and on a positive note, win lose or draw.

Yes, so good that Worthy was sacked immediately after the match!

I remember that game.  We were awful!  I think thats a bad example to use!

AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!Obviously i wasnt referring to a match in which we were utter crap! It was actually the Bradford game 1-4 from the 2001-2002 season i think.

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