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TheNewBoy

Great Signings So Far....

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I don''t really understand the criticism surrounding Lamberts transfer dealings thus far in pre-season. He seems to know exactly what he is trying to do in my opinion, and doing it fantastically as well on a clearly restricted budget, here is my take on the matter:

Steven Smith - A left back at the perfect age, only a little older than Drury when he signed from us. A player who Rangers wanted to give a new contract to, offering to pay more than we offered and who seemed intent in his press conference of seriously challenging Drury for the left back position. A player who we can be certain really wants to play for Norwich City and Paul Lambert. Obviously recommended by our new Chief Scout, surely that is what Chief Scouts are for? We have just got a good young left back for free for goodness sake. For arguments sake, I have asked a Rangers season ticket holder what he thought about him. Worst case scenario? The worst case scenario is that he turns out to be distinctly average, which automatically makes him twice as good as Michael Rose and Rhoys Wiggans who clearly hasn''t cut the mustard. If he turns out to be Championship quality, which I am hopeful of, we have probably just saved ourselves £500k plus. Adam Drury is a crock with perhaps two seasons of 20-25 games left in his leagues. Whilst those 20-25 games are well worth his wages, I didn''t want to see Rose on the pitch at Carrow Road for the other 20+ games, and I am sure that none of you did either. 8/10

Elliott Wade - By all accounts a classy centre back who can actually play the ball out of defence. I have seen him play at least ten times and have never seen him make a mistake. Whilst I did rate Doherty, and believed that he would have been sufficient, he did not do much for our passing game. If I watched Doherty ten times, I could expect at least 3 or 4 very dodgy moments even in League One. Norwich City have fans which like to see a traditional passing game, we haven''t had that for years now - last season was the first time we saw that aspect beginning to return. We were once very proud of the reputation we gained for being an excellent footballing team, and now we have a Centre back who can play his way out of defence. I don''t want to hype this signing up too much, he isn''t going to play for England, but again - an excellent aquisition on a Free Transfer. He is younger than Doherty, more of a threat in front of goal than Doherty, can play with the ball on the floor better than Doherty, and is probably earning less than Doherty. How much would a contracted Elliott Wade cost to buy? Probably £750k - £1m. The bloke is clearly Championship standard. Was Doherty? Probably, but I don''t want our club to take that risk again. The closest former player that I can relate Wade to is Martin Taylor, and we all know how much he changed our game by keeping the ball on the floor. 8/10

David Fox - I''m not so sure about this one, but I can see the intention. He is a left footed midfielder with the ability to defend or attack. Simon Lappin is a left footed midfielder with the ability to defend or attack. I have seen Fox play a fair bit, he seems just as inconsistent as Lappin, but if Lambert wants to stick with the Diamond next year then I do not want to place faith in Lappin over 46 games. I rate Lappin, I thought that he had 6 or 7 months of good form, before looking frankly absolutely burnt out. We can''t carry an exhausted Lappin again next year, we would be severely punished for it. This bloke and Lappin probably aren''t really any better than each other, but he has clearly done an OK job in the champs before - as has Lappin at times. We could have done with Danny Fox at the end of last season, when Lappin look f''d, so we will without a doubt need somebody to compete with Lappin this year. Lambert knows David Fox better than any of us, and he wouldn''t have signed him if he didn''t think that he was at least as good as Lappin. Have faith. Its hard to judge without knowing how much we paid, but I would go for something like.... 6/10

We still need players though, Fraser Forster, a striker, and a right back would be a good start.

The only dissapointment for me is that the signing of David Fox is a clear indication that we are not going to pursue Nicky Bailey. Although it is not hard to see how we would be priced out of a move for him, he could realise £1m+.

In Lambert We Trust, OTBC.

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[quote user="TheNewBoy"]

I don''t really understand the criticism surrounding Lamberts transfer dealings thus far in pre-season. He seems to know exactly what he is trying to do in my opinion, and doing it fantastically as well on a clearly restricted budget, here is my take on the matter:

Steven Smith - A left back at the perfect age, only a little older than Drury when he signed from us. A player who Rangers wanted to give a new contract to, offering to pay more than we offered and who seemed intent in his press conference of seriously challenging Drury for the left back position. A player who we can be certain really wants to play for Norwich City and Paul Lambert. Obviously recommended by our new Chief Scout, surely that is what Chief Scouts are for? We have just got a good young left back for free for goodness sake. For arguments sake, I have asked a Rangers season ticket holder what he thought about him. Worst case scenario? The worst case scenario is that he turns out to be distinctly average, which automatically makes him twice as good as Michael Rose and Rhoys Wiggans who clearly hasn''t cut the mustard. If he turns out to be Championship quality, which I am hopeful of, we have probably just saved ourselves £500k plus. Adam Drury is a crock with perhaps two seasons of 20-25 games left in his leagues. Whilst those 20-25 games are well worth his wages, I didn''t want to see Rose on the pitch at Carrow Road for the other 20+ games, and I am sure that none of you did either. 8/10

Elliott Wade - By all accounts a classy centre back who can actually play the ball out of defence. I have seen him play at least ten times and have never seen him make a mistake. Whilst I did rate Doherty, and believed that he would have been sufficient, he did not do much for our passing game. If I watched Doherty ten times, I could expect at least 3 or 4 very dodgy moments even in League One. Norwich City have fans which like to see a traditional passing game, we haven''t had that for years now - last season was the first time we saw that aspect beginning to return. We were once very proud of the reputation we gained for being an excellent footballing team, and now we have a Centre back who can play his way out of defence. I don''t want to hype this signing up too much, he isn''t going to play for England, but again - an excellent aquisition on a Free Transfer. He is younger than Doherty, more of a threat in front of goal than Doherty, can play with the ball on the floor better than Doherty, and is probably earning less than Doherty. How much would a contracted Elliott Wade cost to buy? Probably £750k - £1m. The bloke is clearly Championship standard. Was Doherty? Probably, but I don''t want our club to take that risk again. The closest former player that I can relate Wade to is Martin Taylor, and we all know how much he changed our game by keeping the ball on the floor. 8/10

David Fox - I''m not so sure about this one, but I can see the intention. He is a left footed midfielder with the ability to defend or attack. Simon Lappin is a left footed midfielder with the ability to defend or attack. I have seen Fox play a fair bit, he seems just as inconsistent as Lappin, but if Lambert wants to stick with the Diamond next year then I do not want to place faith in Lappin over 46 games. I rate Lappin, I thought that he had 6 or 7 months of good form, before looking frankly absolutely burnt out. We can''t carry an exhausted Lappin again next year, we would be severely punished for it. This bloke and Lappin probably aren''t really any better than each other, but he has clearly done an OK job in the champs before - as has Lappin at times. We could have done with Danny Fox at the end of last season, when Lappin look f''d, so we will without a doubt need somebody to compete with Lappin this year. Lambert knows David Fox better than any of us, and he wouldn''t have signed him if he didn''t think that he was at least as good as Lappin. Have faith. Its hard to judge without knowing how much we paid, but I would go for something like.... 6/10

We still need players though, Fraser Forster, a striker, and a right back would be a good start.

The only dissapointment for me is that the signing of David Fox is a clear indication that we are not going to pursue Nicky Bailey. Although it is not hard to see how we would be priced out of a move for him, he could realise £1m+.

In Lambert We Trust, OTBC.

[/quote]Brilliant analysis, but I think Fox maybe deserves a 7? And, also you have missed Andrew Crofts? and it is Elliot Ward, but otherwise well done [Y]

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To be honest I do not know anything whatsoever about Crofts. Only seem him play once, don''t know any Brighton fans; he sounds good on paper but I would have to make stuff up to analyse him! So Crofts - ?/10

The big question is whether he is a Daryl Russell replacement. If he isn''t, then I don''t really care. If he is, then he had better be bleedin good!

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Oh and giving Fox a 7 would be a bit inconsistent, I stated that he probably isn''t any better than Lappin. I would be hard pressed to give Lappin any more than a 6 at Champs level. I would have to rewrite the whole paragraph to give Fox a 7!

I hope that he is a 7, I really do. But Lappin is definitely not going to be a 7!

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I have found an honest, albeit a tiny bit bias, assessment about Fox by his godfather! :I’ve known David Fox since the day he was born so a little bit of bias

may creep in and apologies for that !In Foxy, you have signed a

very cultured midfield player with an enormous amount of talent in the

reading of the game and the silky passing and free kick skills of a

David Beckham. Playing a skilful passing game is David’s main attribute –

he’s certainly not a ‘hoofer’ hence the reason he sat on the bench so

much at Colchester under Aidy Hoofroyd. To a degree, the same can be

said of Ian Holloway at Blackpool and both have recently been quoted as

saying he was "the most skilful player" at the respective clubs, but

they both played the wrong style that suited David. David is a

creative midfield player with his skills being honed as a young lad in

the gym at Stoke City (where his father Peter Fox was the regular first

choice keeper for many years) and this was followed at the Manchester

United Academy and he became captain of Man Utd’s reserves. I’m

sure David would agree that he’s not the fastest of players or the most

defensive minded – in fact, his style can look somewhat lazy on the

pitch, but if Norwich are intent on playing an expansive skilful style

of football in the CCC, David will be able to display his talents and

become a ‘terrific’ player and signing for you guys. I only wish we

could have made room for him at The Hawthorns as our style of playing

football would most certainly have suited David down to the ground, but,

we have the luxury of a host of top class international midfield

players to call on even to the extent of releasing the Slovenian World

Cup captain. Robert Koren, on a free transfer !Great to see you

guys back in the CCC – you are too big a club to be languishing in the

lower divisions – who knows, you may see David playing at The Hawthorn’s

in the Premiership in a couple of years, albeit for the wrong team! Best

of luck for 2010/11[Y]My mate supports Brighton I will get in touch with him about Crofts, but tbh I didn''t notice him in the away game I went to!

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[quote user="Lineo"]Elliot WARD - don''t confuse him with Wade Elliot :P
[/quote]

DOH!

I keep doing this, how embarressing. Although, I wouldn''t say no to Wade Elliott! (two T''s by the way :P) - A good right winger him, if Lambert fancies going 4-4-2 at all next season!

 

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[quote user="TheNewBoy"]I''m not so sure about this one, but I can see the intention. He is a left footed midfielder with the ability to defend or attack. Simon Lappin is a left footed midfielder with the ability to defend or attack.[/quote]

Didn''t he score the free kick at FCR last year his right foot?

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I totally agree with 8/10 for Smith and Ward and my only concern about them is their history of injuries.

Interesting to know that Fox is a left footer as I agree that Lappin was run into the ground last year. I wonder if Lambert is going to rotate players more this year. Fox''s passing and free-kick abilities will be useful now that Rose is gone, but my only concern might be the comment about his defensive qualities.

Crofts sounds like a replacement for Russell to me but I don''t know enough about him yet to make any judgment, except that he hasn''t got any Championship experience, which may or may not be a problem.

Lambert mentioned more players coming in "further up the pitch" and I think that this will be the real test of his team strengthening. Grant and Roeder failed this test. Gunn did better with Holt and bringing back Martin, but City are going to need more this year and I think Lambert will come through on this. OTBC!

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[quote user="singing canary"]very highly thought of at Brighton..[/quote]

Yes, but with some reservations from their fans as to whether or not he is ''really'' good enough for us. At least as per their forum reactions!

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Foxy is right-footed, but plays centre or left midfield I believe.

He also just scored a cracking volley with his right on his Fifa debut for me, to beat Colchester in the last minute [:D]
That automatically means he''s good, y''know!

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[quote user="Yelloow Since 72"]

I totally agree with 8/10 for Smith and Ward and my only concern about them is their history of injuries.

Interesting to know that Fox is a left footer as I agree that Lappin was run into the ground last year. I wonder if Lambert is going to rotate players more this year. Fox''s passing and free-kick abilities will be useful now that Rose is gone, but my only concern might be the comment about his defensive qualities.

Crofts sounds like a replacement for Russell to me but I don''t know enough about him yet to make any judgment, except that he hasn''t got any Championship experience, which may or may not be a problem.

Lambert mentioned more players coming in "further up the pitch" and I think that this will be the real test of his team strengthening. Grant and Roeder failed this test. Gunn did better with Holt and bringing back Martin, but City are going to need more this year and I think Lambert will come through on this. OTBC!

[/quote]

Crofts does have Championship experience, 25 games for Gillingham as a kid. They got relegated that year though.....

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[quote user="singing canary"]he was made captain and fans player of the year . think he will do very well .[/quote]

I appreciate that, and sincerely hope that you are right. But we once had Mark Fotheringham as captain, and Lee Croft as player of the year. For all we know Gus Poyet may be insane and Crofts could have have swung the gay vote!

I''m sure he will do well, I suspect that we will be keeping Matt Gill as backup just in case though.

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Saw him play at Brighton in our game against them. I reckon he could actually provide cver for Hoolahan, he wa a very attacking player and seemed to make a few nice little runs with the ball so I''m looking forward to watching him for us.

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I am certain that David Fox is right footed. His creativity might also mean he''s competition for Hoolahan in the attacking midfield role.Hopefully we can still get Bailey too.

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[quote user="TheNewBoy"]

Elliott Wade - By all accounts a classy centre back who can actually play the ball out of defence. I have seen him play at least ten times and have never seen him make a mistake. Whilst I did rate Doherty, and believed that he would have been sufficient, he did not do much for our passing game. If I watched Doherty ten times, I could expect at least 3 or 4 very dodgy moments even in League One. Norwich City have fans which like to see a traditional passing game, we haven''t had that for years now - last season was the first time we saw that aspect beginning to return. We were once very proud of the reputation we gained for being an excellent footballing team, and now we have a Centre back who can play his way out of defence. I don''t want to hype this signing up too much, he isn''t going to play for England, but again - an excellent aquisition on a Free Transfer. He is younger than Doherty, more of a threat in front of goal than Doherty, can play with the ball on the floor better than Doherty, and is probably earning less than Doherty. How much would a contracted Elliott Wade cost to buy? Probably £750k - £1m. The bloke is clearly Championship standard. Was Doherty? Probably, but I don''t want our club to take that risk again. The closest former player that I can relate Wade to is Martin Taylor, and we all know how much he changed our game by keeping the ball on the floor. 8/10

 

[/quote]

I do think Elliott Ward is a good signing.

However, I think your assessment of Doherty is off the mark. I think because he has that "clumsy" label applied to him (inaccurately) people don''t realise how tidy he is on the ball. He was always very careful in possession, his use of the ball was very sensible, he had a good touch and we also saw that he could ping it 40-50 yards and put it on the money.

Unfortunately for Gary Doherty if there wasn''t a pass on when he had the ball he had 2 options. One was to play a pass that probably wouldn''t do his team mate any favours and the other option was to hoof it forward. If he did either of those things he would take stick from the crowd because most of them can''t read the situation well enough to know he was left in a pretty hopeless situation.

Of course what counted against the Doc was that he was signed as the club was likely to go downhill. Elliott Ward has been signed at a time when the club is likely to go uphill again. There''s plenty of fans out there who will tie/associate Doherty to our slump which is unfair and isn''t a reflection of his ability as a player.

Elliott Ward is already seen as a good signing, people expect him to be a good player for us but he will make mistakes and he will have bad games but I suspect his errors will be overlooked a little more than any errors the Doc made.

 

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[quote user="GJP"][quote user="TheNewBoy"]

Elliott Wade - By all accounts a classy centre back who can actually play the ball out of defence. I have seen him play at least ten times and have never seen him make a mistake. Whilst I did rate Doherty, and believed that he would have been sufficient, he did not do much for our passing game. If I watched Doherty ten times, I could expect at least 3 or 4 very dodgy moments even in League One. Norwich City have fans which like to see a traditional passing game, we haven''t had that for years now - last season was the first time we saw that aspect beginning to return. We were once very proud of the reputation we gained for being an excellent footballing team, and now we have a Centre back who can play his way out of defence. I don''t want to hype this signing up too much, he isn''t going to play for England, but again - an excellent aquisition on a Free Transfer. He is younger than Doherty, more of a threat in front of goal than Doherty, can play with the ball on the floor better than Doherty, and is probably earning less than Doherty. How much would a contracted Elliott Wade cost to buy? Probably £750k - £1m. The bloke is clearly Championship standard. Was Doherty? Probably, but I don''t want our club to take that risk again. The closest former player that I can relate Wade to is Martin Taylor, and we all know how much he changed our game by keeping the ball on the floor. 8/10

 

[/quote]

I do think Elliott Ward is a good signing.

However, I think your assessment of Doherty is off the mark. I think because he has that "clumsy" label applied to him (inaccurately) people don''t realise how tidy he is on the ball. He was always very careful in possession, his use of the ball was very sensible, he had a good touch and we also saw that he could ping it 40-50 yards and put it on the money.

Unfortunately for Gary Doherty if there wasn''t a pass on when he had the ball he had 2 options. One was to play a pass that probably wouldn''t do his team mate any favours and the other option was to hoof it forward. If he did either of those things he would take stick from the crowd because most of them can''t read the situation well enough to know he was left in a pretty hopeless situation.

Of course what counted against the Doc was that he was signed as the club was likely to go downhill. Elliott Ward has been signed at a time when the club is likely to go uphill again. There''s plenty of fans out there who will tie/associate Doherty to our slump which is unfair and isn''t a reflection of his ability as a player.

Elliott Ward is already seen as a good signing, people expect him to be a good player for us but he will make mistakes and he will have bad games but I suspect his errors will be overlooked a little more than any errors the Doc made.

 

[/quote]

I don''t think that my assessment as Doherty as somebody who could "probably" cut in it in The Championship as being unfair. He has never looked anything better than an average Centre Back in The Championship to almost all City Fans. We got 5 decent years out of him, he is now 30, now we can go and get 5 or 6 decent years out of Elliott Ward.

We now have Whitbread, Askou, Ward and Nelson. Whilst I do not rate Nelson as a player who could cut the mustard in this league, there is no way we could justifying having Whitbread, Askou, Ward, Nelson and Doherty at the club. Somebody had to make way for Ward, and Doherty was the one out of contract. The likelyhood is that Ward is better than any of those players, so I stick by my assessment.

There is no denying that we achieved two relegations with Doherty in the team. He never looked a patch on Shackell when he was here. I think that Ward is at least as good as Shackell. And the suggestion that Doherty can play a 40 or 50 yard pass because he did it well once or twice is ridiculous. Doherty is well suited to ''hoofball'', occassionally a hoof will look like a world class pass.

Doherty may be a solid centre back when he has the confidence, but Maldini he is not.

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[quote user="TheNewBoy"][quote user="GJP"][quote user="TheNewBoy"]

Elliott Wade - By all accounts a classy centre back who can actually play the ball out of defence. I have seen him play at least ten times and have never seen him make a mistake. Whilst I did rate Doherty, and believed that he would have been sufficient, he did not do much for our passing game. If I watched Doherty ten times, I could expect at least 3 or 4 very dodgy moments even in League One. Norwich City have fans which like to see a traditional passing game, we haven''t had that for years now - last season was the first time we saw that aspect beginning to return. We were once very proud of the reputation we gained for being an excellent footballing team, and now we have a Centre back who can play his way out of defence. I don''t want to hype this signing up too much, he isn''t going to play for England, but again - an excellent aquisition on a Free Transfer. He is younger than Doherty, more of a threat in front of goal than Doherty, can play with the ball on the floor better than Doherty, and is probably earning less than Doherty. How much would a contracted Elliott Wade cost to buy? Probably £750k - £1m. The bloke is clearly Championship standard. Was Doherty? Probably, but I don''t want our club to take that risk again. The closest former player that I can relate Wade to is Martin Taylor, and we all know how much he changed our game by keeping the ball on the floor. 8/10

 

[/quote]

I do think Elliott Ward is a good signing.

However, I think your assessment of Doherty is off the mark. I think because he has that "clumsy" label applied to him (inaccurately) people don''t realise how tidy he is on the ball. He was always very careful in possession, his use of the ball was very sensible, he had a good touch and we also saw that he could ping it 40-50 yards and put it on the money.

Unfortunately for Gary Doherty if there wasn''t a pass on when he had the ball he had 2 options. One was to play a pass that probably wouldn''t do his team mate any favours and the other option was to hoof it forward. If he did either of those things he would take stick from the crowd because most of them can''t read the situation well enough to know he was left in a pretty hopeless situation.

Of course what counted against the Doc was that he was signed as the club was likely to go downhill. Elliott Ward has been signed at a time when the club is likely to go uphill again. There''s plenty of fans out there who will tie/associate Doherty to our slump which is unfair and isn''t a reflection of his ability as a player.

Elliott Ward is already seen as a good signing, people expect him to be a good player for us but he will make mistakes and he will have bad games but I suspect his errors will be overlooked a little more than any errors the Doc made.

 

[/quote]

I don''t think that my assessment as Doherty as somebody who could "probably" cut in it in The Championship as being unfair. He has never looked anything better than an average Centre Back in The Championship to almost all City Fans. We got 5 decent years out of him, he is now 30, now we can go and get 5 or 6 decent years out of Elliott Ward.

We now have Whitbread, Askou, Ward and Nelson. Whilst I do not rate Nelson as a player who could cut the mustard in this league, there is no way we could justifying having Whitbread, Askou, Ward, Nelson and Doherty at the club. Somebody had to make way for Ward, and Doherty was the one out of contract. The likelyhood is that Ward is better than any of those players, so I stick by my assessment.

There is no denying that we achieved two relegations with Doherty in the team. He never looked a patch on Shackell when he was here. I think that Ward is at least as good as Shackell. And the suggestion that Doherty can play a 40 or 50 yard pass because he did it well once or twice is ridiculous. Doherty is well suited to ''hoofball'', occassionally a hoof will look like a world class pass.

Doherty may be a solid centre back when he has the confidence, but Maldini he is not.

[/quote]

I wasn''t commenting on your opinion that he could probably cut it in the Championship. I wasn''t commenting on how you didn''t do his ability on the ball any justice.

As you say, he''s not Maldini but then we''re not AC Milan. And until we have bucket loads of cash to spend we''re not going to see too many better defenders at the club than Gary Doherty. I''m sure Elliott Ward will be a good signing but he will have to come in and be our best defender because that''s who he is replacing, if he''s not our best defender then, football wise, we''ll have taken a step back.

Doherty only passed it 40/50 yards once or twice? Is that what you think? He often flighted the ball into the right place, when you''re playing a ball out of defence you''re not always going to be able to put it on someone''s head, chest or feet (especially when they''re under pressure) so sometimes you just have to knock it into the right area and that was something he did quite comfortably. We''re not going to watch Elliott Ward rip teams to shreds with pin point passes every game, it just doesn''t happen like that.

Finally...your judgement that he never looked a patch on Shackell is again off the mark in my opinion. Before Shackell went to Wolves he was always the weaker link in defence but fortunately he came back from Wolves as a better competitor on the pitch, probably because he''d been out of his comfort zone.

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[quote user="GJP"][quote user="TheNewBoy"][quote user="GJP"][quote user="TheNewBoy"]

Elliott Wade - By all accounts a classy centre back who can actually play the ball out of defence. I have seen him play at least ten times and have never seen him make a mistake. Whilst I did rate Doherty, and believed that he would have been sufficient, he did not do much for our passing game. If I watched Doherty ten times, I could expect at least 3 or 4 very dodgy moments even in League One. Norwich City have fans which like to see a traditional passing game, we haven''t had that for years now - last season was the first time we saw that aspect beginning to return. We were once very proud of the reputation we gained for being an excellent footballing team, and now we have a Centre back who can play his way out of defence. I don''t want to hype this signing up too much, he isn''t going to play for England, but again - an excellent aquisition on a Free Transfer. He is younger than Doherty, more of a threat in front of goal than Doherty, can play with the ball on the floor better than Doherty, and is probably earning less than Doherty. How much would a contracted Elliott Wade cost to buy? Probably £750k - £1m. The bloke is clearly Championship standard. Was Doherty? Probably, but I don''t want our club to take that risk again. The closest former player that I can relate Wade to is Martin Taylor, and we all know how much he changed our game by keeping the ball on the floor. 8/10

 

[/quote]

I do think Elliott Ward is a good signing.

However, I think your assessment of Doherty is off the mark. I think because he has that "clumsy" label applied to him (inaccurately) people don''t realise how tidy he is on the ball. He was always very careful in possession, his use of the ball was very sensible, he had a good touch and we also saw that he could ping it 40-50 yards and put it on the money.

Unfortunately for Gary Doherty if there wasn''t a pass on when he had the ball he had 2 options. One was to play a pass that probably wouldn''t do his team mate any favours and the other option was to hoof it forward. If he did either of those things he would take stick from the crowd because most of them can''t read the situation well enough to know he was left in a pretty hopeless situation.

Of course what counted against the Doc was that he was signed as the club was likely to go downhill. Elliott Ward has been signed at a time when the club is likely to go uphill again. There''s plenty of fans out there who will tie/associate Doherty to our slump which is unfair and isn''t a reflection of his ability as a player.

Elliott Ward is already seen as a good signing, people expect him to be a good player for us but he will make mistakes and he will have bad games but I suspect his errors will be overlooked a little more than any errors the Doc made.

 

[/quote]

I don''t think that my assessment as Doherty as somebody who could "probably" cut in it in The Championship as being unfair. He has never looked anything better than an average Centre Back in The Championship to almost all City Fans. We got 5 decent years out of him, he is now 30, now we can go and get 5 or 6 decent years out of Elliott Ward.

We now have Whitbread, Askou, Ward and Nelson. Whilst I do not rate Nelson as a player who could cut the mustard in this league, there is no way we could justifying having Whitbread, Askou, Ward, Nelson and Doherty at the club. Somebody had to make way for Ward, and Doherty was the one out of contract. The likelyhood is that Ward is better than any of those players, so I stick by my assessment.

There is no denying that we achieved two relegations with Doherty in the team. He never looked a patch on Shackell when he was here. I think that Ward is at least as good as Shackell. And the suggestion that Doherty can play a 40 or 50 yard pass because he did it well once or twice is ridiculous. Doherty is well suited to ''hoofball'', occassionally a hoof will look like a world class pass.

Doherty may be a solid centre back when he has the confidence, but Maldini he is not.

[/quote]

I wasn''t commenting on your opinion that he could probably cut it in the Championship. I wasn''t commenting on how you didn''t do his ability on the ball any justice.

As you say, he''s not Maldini but then we''re not AC Milan. And until we have bucket loads of cash to spend we''re not going to see too many better defenders at the club than Gary Doherty. I''m sure Elliott Ward will be a good signing but he will have to come in and be our best defender because that''s who he is replacing, if he''s not our best defender then, football wise, we''ll have taken a step back.

Doherty only passed it 40/50 yards once or twice? Is that what you think? He often flighted the ball into the right place, when you''re playing a ball out of defence you''re not always going to be able to put it on someone''s head, chest or feet (especially when they''re under pressure) so sometimes you just have to knock it into the right area and that was something he did quite comfortably. We''re not going to watch Elliott Ward rip teams to shreds with pin point passes every game, it just doesn''t happen like that.

Finally...your judgement that he never looked a patch on Shackell is again off the mark in my opinion. Before Shackell went to Wolves he was always the weaker link in defence but fortunately he came back from Wolves as a better competitor on the pitch, probably because he''d been out of his comfort zone.

[/quote]

Well if we all had the same opinions then the world would be a boring place, or it would be like North Korea. It sounds like we have been watching a completely different player mate! It seems that we are poles apart in our opinions on this matter, I wouldn''t even say that Gary Doherty was our best defender last year - Adam Drury stole that one for me, only problem is his fitness.

Its almost as if you have seen a defender who can pass his way out of defence, I have seen a player who struggles to pass his way out of defence. Martin Taylor made me realise how poor Doherty''s distribution was, now that really was a centre back who could spot a good pass. The performance of our defence last year really isn''t a great way to measure Doherty''s ability, he was playing alongside an average League One centre back in Micky Nelson, a League One right back in Russell Martin, and for a period of time an average League One left back in Micheal Rose.

Yes Gary Doherty probably was our best defender last year, I haven''t disputed that, but he was the best of a bad bunch. Next season is an entirely different kettle of fish. And yes I was talking about Shackell post departure, the last time we were in The Championship. Prior to Shackells departure he had been no worse than Doherty, they were both as bad as each other. Losing Shackell was a disaster, I would have him back at the club in a heartbeat - as justified by his top form for Doncaster. I think that Shackell had perhaps 6 bad months at the same time as Doherty, to say that he was ''always the weaker link'' is quite wide of the mark.

I have not once attempted to make Doherty a scapegoat on this thread, you seem to think that I am. I am simply calling it as I see it. Elliott Ward is a better Centre Back than Gary Doherty. I don''t know how much you have seen of Ward, but all I have said is that I think Ward is better than Doherty. You may think that I''m not giving Doherty enough credit, but I think you are not giving Ward enough credit.

Doherty may have been the best of a bad bunch, well he was the best of the bad bunch since it is hard to choose a left back who missed 15 games, but next season we will have no Steven Smith, we will probably see a rejuvinated Whitbread, Askou who looked solid at the start of the season has the chance to fight for a place.

I like Doherty, you seem to love Doherty, but we don''t need Doherty. It is as simple as that. We have three centre backs who are fully capable of playing Championship football once they get going - Ward, Whitbread, Askou. We have another player in Spillane who could probably do a job there. And as for Nelson, well Lambert is stuck with him for another year.

What it boils down to is this..... I don''t think that we need Doherty, you seem to think that losing him is a disaster. Until we have played 10 Championship games there really is no way of knowing who is right so I can''t really see where this argument could go.

And yes Doherty did make lots of mistakes, tonnes of them, every game..... in The Champs. Maybe not in League One, well even League One at times. He stands too often on the wrong side of his marker, comes unstuck by letting any player with half decent pace to turn him on the inside, he still puts his hands on players shoulders for no reason whatsoever. He could get away with it in League One, but he never cut it for us in this league.

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[quote user="TheNewBoy"][quote user="GJP"][quote user="TheNewBoy"][quote user="GJP"][quote user="TheNewBoy"]

Elliott Wade - By all accounts a classy centre back who can actually play the ball out of defence. I have seen him play at least ten times and have never seen him make a mistake. Whilst I did rate Doherty, and believed that he would have been sufficient, he did not do much for our passing game. If I watched Doherty ten times, I could expect at least 3 or 4 very dodgy moments even in League One. Norwich City have fans which like to see a traditional passing game, we haven''t had that for years now - last season was the first time we saw that aspect beginning to return. We were once very proud of the reputation we gained for being an excellent footballing team, and now we have a Centre back who can play his way out of defence. I don''t want to hype this signing up too much, he isn''t going to play for England, but again - an excellent aquisition on a Free Transfer. He is younger than Doherty, more of a threat in front of goal than Doherty, can play with the ball on the floor better than Doherty, and is probably earning less than Doherty. How much would a contracted Elliott Wade cost to buy? Probably £750k - £1m. The bloke is clearly Championship standard. Was Doherty? Probably, but I don''t want our club to take that risk again. The closest former player that I can relate Wade to is Martin Taylor, and we all know how much he changed our game by keeping the ball on the floor. 8/10

 

[/quote]

I do think Elliott Ward is a good signing.

However, I think your assessment of Doherty is off the mark. I think because he has that "clumsy" label applied to him (inaccurately) people don''t realise how tidy he is on the ball. He was always very careful in possession, his use of the ball was very sensible, he had a good touch and we also saw that he could ping it 40-50 yards and put it on the money.

Unfortunately for Gary Doherty if there wasn''t a pass on when he had the ball he had 2 options. One was to play a pass that probably wouldn''t do his team mate any favours and the other option was to hoof it forward. If he did either of those things he would take stick from the crowd because most of them can''t read the situation well enough to know he was left in a pretty hopeless situation.

Of course what counted against the Doc was that he was signed as the club was likely to go downhill. Elliott Ward has been signed at a time when the club is likely to go uphill again. There''s plenty of fans out there who will tie/associate Doherty to our slump which is unfair and isn''t a reflection of his ability as a player.

Elliott Ward is already seen as a good signing, people expect him to be a good player for us but he will make mistakes and he will have bad games but I suspect his errors will be overlooked a little more than any errors the Doc made.

 

[/quote]

I don''t think that my assessment as Doherty as somebody who could "probably" cut in it in The Championship as being unfair. He has never looked anything better than an average Centre Back in The Championship to almost all City Fans. We got 5 decent years out of him, he is now 30, now we can go and get 5 or 6 decent years out of Elliott Ward.

We now have Whitbread, Askou, Ward and Nelson. Whilst I do not rate Nelson as a player who could cut the mustard in this league, there is no way we could justifying having Whitbread, Askou, Ward, Nelson and Doherty at the club. Somebody had to make way for Ward, and Doherty was the one out of contract. The likelyhood is that Ward is better than any of those players, so I stick by my assessment.

There is no denying that we achieved two relegations with Doherty in the team. He never looked a patch on Shackell when he was here. I think that Ward is at least as good as Shackell. And the suggestion that Doherty can play a 40 or 50 yard pass because he did it well once or twice is ridiculous. Doherty is well suited to ''hoofball'', occassionally a hoof will look like a world class pass.

Doherty may be a solid centre back when he has the confidence, but Maldini he is not.

[/quote]

I wasn''t commenting on your opinion that he could probably cut it in the Championship. I wasn''t commenting on how you didn''t do his ability on the ball any justice.

As you say, he''s not Maldini but then we''re not AC Milan. And until we have bucket loads of cash to spend we''re not going to see too many better defenders at the club than Gary Doherty. I''m sure Elliott Ward will be a good signing but he will have to come in and be our best defender because that''s who he is replacing, if he''s not our best defender then, football wise, we''ll have taken a step back.

Doherty only passed it 40/50 yards once or twice? Is that what you think? He often flighted the ball into the right place, when you''re playing a ball out of defence you''re not always going to be able to put it on someone''s head, chest or feet (especially when they''re under pressure) so sometimes you just have to knock it into the right area and that was something he did quite comfortably. We''re not going to watch Elliott Ward rip teams to shreds with pin point passes every game, it just doesn''t happen like that.

Finally...your judgement that he never looked a patch on Shackell is again off the mark in my opinion. Before Shackell went to Wolves he was always the weaker link in defence but fortunately he came back from Wolves as a better competitor on the pitch, probably because he''d been out of his comfort zone.

[/quote]

Well if we all had the same opinions then the world would be a boring place, or it would be like North Korea. It sounds like we have been watching a completely different player mate! It seems that we are poles apart in our opinions on this matter, I wouldn''t even say that Gary Doherty was our best defender last year - Adam Drury stole that one for me, only problem is his fitness.

Its almost as if you have seen a defender who can pass his way out of defence, I have seen a player who struggles to pass his way out of defence. Martin Taylor made me realise how poor Doherty''s distribution was, now that really was a centre back who could spot a good pass. The performance of our defence last year really isn''t a great way to measure Doherty''s ability, he was playing alongside an average League One centre back in Micky Nelson, a League One right back in Russell Martin, and for a period of time an average League One left back in Micheal Rose.

Yes Gary Doherty probably was our best defender last year, I haven''t disputed that, but he was the best of a bad bunch. Next season is an entirely different kettle of fish. And yes I was talking about Shackell post departure, the last time we were in The Championship. Prior to Shackells departure he had been no worse than Doherty, they were both as bad as each other. Losing Shackell was a disaster, I would have him back at the club in a heartbeat - as justified by his top form for Doncaster. I think that Shackell had perhaps 6 bad months at the same time as Doherty, to say that he was ''always the weaker link'' is quite wide of the mark.

I have not once attempted to make Doherty a scapegoat on this thread, you seem to think that I am. I am simply calling it as I see it. Elliott Ward is a better Centre Back than Gary Doherty. I don''t know how much you have seen of Ward, but all I have said is that I think Ward is better than Doherty. You may think that I''m not giving Doherty enough credit, but I think you are not giving Ward enough credit.

Doherty may have been the best of a bad bunch, well he was the best of the bad bunch since it is hard to choose a left back who missed 15 games, but next season we will have no Steven Smith, we will probably see a rejuvinated Whitbread, Askou who looked solid at the start of the season has the chance to fight for a place.

I like Doherty, you seem to love Doherty, but we don''t need Doherty. It is as simple as that. We have three centre backs who are fully capable of playing Championship football once they get going - Ward, Whitbread, Askou. We have another player in Spillane who could probably do a job there. And as for Nelson, well Lambert is stuck with him for another year.

What it boils down to is this..... I don''t think that we need Doherty, you seem to think that losing him is a disaster. Until we have played 10 Championship games there really is no way of knowing who is right so I can''t really see where this argument could go.

And yes Doherty did make lots of mistakes, tonnes of them, every game..... in The Champs. Maybe not in League One, well even League One at times. He stands too often on the wrong side of his marker, comes unstuck by letting any player with half decent pace to turn him on the inside, he still puts his hands on players shoulders for no reason whatsoever. He could get away with it in League One, but he never cut it for us in this league.

[/quote]

*Next season we will have no Michael Rose and probably no Micky Nelson that was supposed to say.

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Not particularly true, I hadn''t really heard of Oli Johnson yet he turned out alright.

We''ve tried signing some established names and thats not really worked has it?

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[quote user="Quentin"]The only player we have signed so far that I''ve heard of is Elliot Ward. Not a good sign.
[/quote]

I''d never heard of Fraser Forster when we signed him.

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[quote user="TheNewBoy"]

What it boils down to is this..... I don''t think that we need Doherty, you seem to think that losing him is a disaster. Until we have played 10 Championship games there really is no way of knowing who is right so I can''t really see where this argument could go.

[/quote]

No, I really don''t think I have been suggesting that losing Doherty is a disaster. For me he''s just the same as any other player - if they need to go for us to be able to improve the team as a unit then so be it.

I think in his time here he''s proven to be a good player for us and better than he often gets credit for. Well, I guess that''s not so true because his regular appearances in the top 3 for POTS suggest plenty of people have seen him do a god job for us and do give credit where it''s due.

As for Elliott Ward I''m actually very pleased we have signed him. On the face of it I think that it looks like a very good piece of business - younger than Doherty and probably cheaper. However, I''ll wait and see what he does in a Norwich shirt before I make up on my mind on him. I''m not going to write him off and I''m not going to tell myself he''s the best defender we''ve had at Norwich in years until he''s been on the pitch a few months and shown us something.

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