Sounds like Doc will get a new contract

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Mister Chops"]It''s very unfair to pin this all on Doc.  Our gaping black hole of a centre midfield, and our full backs, were equally culpable for our defensive frailties.  Interestingly Adam Drury was also part of the above set of stats. What should we do with him?[/quote]I''m not pinning it all on Doherty, but he''s been far more responsible for bad errors which cost goals than Drury ever has, nor is he anywhere near the defender Drury is.Even if you thought our central midfield wasn''t great (and it really wasn''t), they still provided more cover to the centre halves than Drury EVER got from Hucks.Also, Drury was game limited in our 08/09 game reason through injury, yet still managed a better GCPG than Doc, and had 3 clean sheets in 11 games compared to Doc''s 7 in 34, he also had Hoolahan infront of him again providing no defensive cover just like Hucks...Drury is simply a better defender who has often been let down by a total lack of support either by the midfield or centre halves, and it''s hard to perform when teams are often putting 2 men against 1 defender as often used to happen to him.[/quote]That looks like selective use of evidence to me.  If Drury is a good left back, and I agree that he is, then the fact we conceded more goals when he was injured can''t really be Doherty''s fault.  And Drury was largely part of the same defence whose stats you quote above.  So Drury can''t really be excused either, but my view is our team as a whole hasn''t been good enough for 3-4 years now, this season we''ve done very well in a mediocre league and the players who have surged up the table deserve a chance next season to show they can carry on the forward momentum.  Doc''s been very good this season, he was good in 2005-6 and was the best of a bad bunch in 2008-9 (in my view) and deserves a chance in the Championship.

[ZLF 274]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]

Our gaping black hole of a centre midfield, [/quote]

QFT.

We have have had poor weak ineffective central midfielders for several seasons.  what has changed this year is that instead of just the back 4 being expected to defend the striker and more crucially the central midfield have worked had to win the ball and ease the pressure on the back line.    That was most apparent last season when clingan russell et al failed to stop their central midfield opponents from taking shots and scoring at will by failing to track their runs or mevoment.   The central defenders  took the blame last season and still do in many fans eyes - but who are they to supposed mark strikers or midfielders???  

The prem league was different - our central defenders - including the one that left before the start of the season - were simply not good enough.

 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="city-till-i-die"]we have been poor defensively in the championship for many years now....who has always been part of the Center back partnership?(DOC) [/quote]
And to back this up with some stats from Doc''s record:

04/05 – Prem – 2.1 GCPG – 2 CS – Worst defence in the league

05/06 – CCC – 1.5 GCPG – 9 CS – Joint 2^nd worst defence in top half, only 5 teams worse overall

06/07 – CCC – 1.6 GCPG – 8 CS – Fifth worst defence in the league

07/08 – CCC – 1.1 GCPG – 10 CS – Ninth worst defence in league despite Doc''s best season in 4 years

08/09 – CCC – 1.6 GCPG – 7 CS – Third worst defence in league – Relegated

09/10 – L1 – 1.1 GCPG – 14 CS – Third best defence in league

We can clearly seen that defensively we''ve been awful for years, all of which Doc played a significant part of, and it''s only this season at a lower level that we''ve been far better in this area.

You can try to pin the blame on everyone BUT Doherty, but as far as I''m concerned, a large point of the responsibility has to fall on his shoulders, because it''s nonsensical to blame the rest of the team every single time. Maybe we should have been stronger in midfield to help the defence, maybe some of the other defenders didn''t play well, but let''s not be silly and look to absolve Doherty from all blame, especially when many posters have seen the bad errors he''s made, have seen the Gorillaesque defending and aimless hoofing, and have seen him left for dead by even very average strikers.

He HAS done far better this season, WE have done far better this season, but if he/we can''t perform at this level you have to question what''s going on.

The simple fact is that he''s an Average to Poor centre half, who can look good on his day, but a total disaster off it, and if that''s what you want to entrust our CCC survival - or chance of ever going back to the prem on - good luck to you, because I bloody don''t...
[/quote]

Like you Indy, I don''t really want to get into another long drawn out argument about the Doc. I was torn between posting on this or Wiz''s love/hate relationships thread and you won [;)] I think it''s wrong to suggest that a poster knows nothing about football because their opinion is the opposite of your own. I think Doc is a good Championship centre half and you think he''s found his level in League One. That''s fair enough. We disagree so we can either live with it or try to debate eachother around.

Now that''s where I take issue with your views on this thread because it seems to me you are just manipulating team stats to back up your point of view. In 2004/5 Doc only started about a dozen games in defence and in those games we probably weren''t any better or worse than games he didn''t start. I would agree with ZLF that none of our defenders were good enough but the this is not relevant to whether Doc is good enough to play in the Champs is it? I could point out that we were the fifth lowest scorers that season and suggest that Hucks isn''t good enough to play in the Champs using the same logic. In fact using stats in this way I could make a case for Hucks not being good enough in later seasons too. Robert Green is playing for England and will go to the World Cup but we could use these same stats to make a case for him not being good enough to play in the Champs couldn''t we?

 

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Like you Indy, I don''t really want to get into another long drawn out argument about the Doc.[/quote]We simply see things differently Nigel, and at least you respond in a fair manner instead of just claiming I know nothing about the sport :)The point I was looking to illustrate is that one of the only consistent parts of our poor performances has been the presence of Doherty.Drury has also been there as well, but missed huge chunks of the 07/08 & 08/09 seasons whereas Doc didn''t.[quote]Robert Green is playing for England and will go to the World Cup but we could use these same stats to make a case for him not being good enough to play in the Champs couldn''t we? [/quote]But we haven''t see Greeno dropping a bollock in virtually every game have we?He''s got where he is through consistently good performances in a pretty average to poor team.The problem with Doherty is that even if he played really well for 85 mins, there''s always that fear that in the remaining 5 he''d make a total hash of something and we''d end up conceding.As fans we arguably remember his mistakes more because they have often been more obvious and usually more costly. If Holt sends a sitter over the bar, then we can still be on for a draw, and what''s more we think tend to feel that if he gets another chance he''ll make it count this time - if Doherty makes a bad error and we concede we then have to work harder just to get a point, and he doesn''t inspire any confidence that it won''t happen again.The sad fact is that you notice keeper/defender errors far more than striker misses (unless it''s Curo missing his 10th sitter in a row...), and Doherty always looks prone to make a mistake. Hell, I''ve even got friends who visibly cringe when they hear his name on the teamsheet - and they support other clubs!We''ll clearly never agree here Nigel, and being honest, I fully expect that if Doherty has another bad season in the CCC with us, then chances are that yourself or others will still claim that he''s quality and it''s someone else''s fault again.Lightning may strike twice, but getting on for 5 times running you have to wonder what''s going on...

[First Wizard 0]

Every squad player deserves a fair chance next season.

[city till i die 0]

Every squad player deserves a fair chance next season.

I will just give Jamie Lad a call.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="First Wizard"]Every squad player deserves a fair chance next season.[/quote]If every time you walked past a certain person - they punched you in the face, would you keep walking past them in the hope that they''d become a reformed character, or simply avoid the risk?

[First Wizard 0]

[quote user="city till i die"]Every squad player deserves a fair chance next season. I will just give Jamie Lad a call.[/quote]No point............he won''t be here next season.

[morty 0]

Sorry Indy, but after your opinions on Theo no one is likely to take you very seriously lol.Doc is worth another contract based on the evidence I have seen this season, which is every home game and one away.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="morty"]Doc is worth another contract based on the evidence I have seen this season, which is every home game and one away.[/quote]How many times do I have point out the same thing???If Doherty cannot perform do a decent standard at this level when he was signed as a Premiership standard player, then there''s something badly wrong.Would you be shocked if someone like Craig Fagan dropped down from the Prem into League 1 and scored plenty of goals??? How about if someone like Gabiddon was able to shut out most League 1 strikers??Of course not, you''d expect it because they are Prem/CCC standard, and based on that you''d expect them to play well in the CCC as well.If we''re just going to base contract negotiations and team signings on who played well in League 1 this season, we may struggle a bit in the CCC next...Proven CCC players are needed to virtually guarantee proven peformances, and Doherty has proved nothing for us at that level - apart from helping us get relegated...

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]and Doherty always looks prone to make a mistake.
[/quote]

Complete and utter tosh. Again.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="GJP"]Complete and utter tosh. Again.[/quote] Thanks for such a well reasoned and structured response...I suppose when asked your opinion on why a certain player should be signed, your response would be - "He just should".So much for discussion on a forum...

[morty 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="morty"]Doc is worth another contract based on the evidence I have seen this season, which is every home game and one away.[/quote]How many times do I have point out the same thing???If Doherty cannot perform do a decent standard at this level when he was signed as a Premiership standard player, then there''s something badly wrong.Would you be shocked if someone like Craig Fagan dropped down from the Prem into League 1 and scored plenty of goals??? How about if someone like Gabiddon was able to shut out most League 1 strikers??Of course not, you''d expect it because they are Prem/CCC standard, and based on that you''d expect them to play well in the CCC as well.If we''re just going to base contract negotiations and team signings on who played well in League 1 this season, we may struggle a bit in the CCC next...Proven CCC players are needed to virtually guarantee proven peformances, and Doherty has proved nothing for us at that level - apart from helping us get relegated...[/quote]How many games have you been to this season to make this opinion?

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="GJP"]Complete and utter tosh. Again.[/quote] Thanks for such a well reasoned and structured response...

I suppose when asked your opinion on why a certain player should be signed, your response would be - "He just should".

So much for discussion on a forum...
[/quote]

What else is there to say to you?

There''s a number of sensible posters on here who have all spoken in positive terms of Doherty and recognise him as a good player for us yet you still seem to think you know better.

In football (and in life, I guess) you should always look to learn, listen to those who know a bit better than you and then take it onboard.

This is one of those times when you should listen to those who know a bit better than yourself.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="morty"]How many games have you been to this season to make this opinion?[/quote]Head against wall...Frankly I couldn''t give a flying f**k about his performances this season (even though I have given him credit on a number of occasions), it''s been his poor performances for years at a higher league level that concerns me.If a striker can''t seem to score consistently in the CCC for 3-4 years, but then finds his shooting boots after relegation into League 1, does this make then a good enough CCC striker, or does the fact that he''s failed miserably at that level time after time not give cause for concern?Performances in League 1 do not equate to or guarantee ability at CCC level or better, so for all intents and purposes Doherty''s play this season is irrelevant in comparison to the years of dross he served up on CCC duty for us.Is that clear enough or do I need to borrow one of those parliamentary vehicles with the loudspeakers on to get this simple premise through to you???

[AndyCanary 0]

[quote user="The gut"][quote user="AndyCanary"][quote user="The gut"]

[quote user="AndyCanary"]He''s been outstanding all season. Most consistent player by a country mile.[/quote]

Now I like Doc but this is way over the top!

[/quote]Who has been more consistent?[/quote]

I would say Forster, Drury, Russell, Smith, Hoolahan, Martin, and Holt, and possibly even Lappin have been as consistent (if not more), which is why I believe the "by a country mile" statement is way over the top. In fact I think it''s absolutely ridiculous. And I''m one of those always defending the unfair criticisms of him.

[/quote]When I say consistent I mean consistently reliable.. consistently someone we can count on.With Russell, Holt, and Forster we couldn''t do that because they have had red cards and suspensions and missed games.With Drury, and Hoolahan they''ve been injured so they missed games.Martin has been terrific but by no means consistently terrific.Lappin hasn''t been consistent at all. At least not in a positive way.Forsters kicking has been consistently poor..Corey is about as close as it gets to being consistent like Doherty has... but when you compare them I think most people would put Doherty as being the winner.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="GJP"]In football (and in life, I guess) you should always look to learn, listen to those who know a bit better than you and then take it onboard.

This is one of those times when you should listen to those who know a bit better than yourself.[/quote]

And this is one of those times when you should consider being far less arrogant, and actually taking your own advice in accepting that others may know something about a subject apart from yourself.

If you don''t agree with my opinion that''s fair enough, and you''re totally entitled to voice your own views, but why resort to simply questioning the ability of another to even hold an opinion, especially in lieu of your own supporting evidence as to why you should even be listened to in the first place?

[morty 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="morty"]How many games have you been to this season to make this opinion?[/quote]Head against wall...Frankly I couldn''t give a flying f**k about his performances this season (even though I have given him credit on a number of occasions), it''s been his poor performances for years at a higher league level that concerns me.If a striker can''t seem to score consistently in the CCC for 3-4 years, but then finds his shooting boots after relegation into League 1, does this make then a good enough CCC striker, or does the fact that he''s failed miserably at that level time after time not give cause for concern?Performances in League 1 do not equate to or guarantee ability at CCC level or better, so for all intents and purposes Doherty''s play this season is irrelevant in comparison to the years of dross he served up on CCC duty for us.Is that clear enough or do I need to borrow one of those parliamentary vehicles with the loudspeakers on to get this simple premise through to you???[/quote]Feel free to answer my question, have you actually seen Norwich city play, this season or last?Or are you basing your opinion on match reports and radio broadcasts?

[AndyCanary 0]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="morty"]How many games have you been to this season to make this opinion?[/quote]Head against wall...Frankly I couldn''t give a flying f**k about his performances this season (even though I have given him credit on a number of occasions), it''s been his poor performances for years at a higher league level that concerns me.If a striker can''t seem to score consistently in the CCC for 3-4 years, but then finds his shooting boots after relegation into League 1, does this make then a good enough CCC striker, or does the fact that he''s failed miserably at that level time after time not give cause for concern?Performances in League 1 do not equate to or guarantee ability at CCC level or better, so for all intents and purposes Doherty''s play this season is irrelevant in comparison to the years of dross he served up on CCC duty for us.Is that clear enough or do I need to borrow one of those parliamentary vehicles with the loudspeakers on to get this simple premise through to you???[/quote]Feel free to answer my question, have you actually seen Norwich city play, this season or last?Or are you basing your opinion on match reports and radio broadcasts?[/quote]Indy Bones has a fair point in theory. But the reality is that Doherty looks a completely different player to me since Lambo and team came in. And I feel confident he''ll be at his best yet next season. But I guess if Indy Bones had seen the games rather than checking the results online he''d know that.

[Nuff Said 5,119]

Spot on Andy. The Doc has been playing *better* under the management of Lambert and co and that''s why he''s worth a bet next season. As an example, how amny goals had he scored before this season? Clearly the management team have enough skill to get him - and others - playing to their strengths and avoiding mistakes of the past.THERE IS ONLY ONE GINGER PELE!!!

I will hold my hands up and say I''ve only seen about ten games this season, just before the accusations start flying. [:)]

[morty 0]

[quote user="Nuff Said"]Spot on Andy. The Doc has been playing *better* under the management of Lambert and co and that''s why he''s worth a bet next season. As an example, how amny goals had he scored before this season? Clearly the management team have enough skill to get him - and others - playing to their strengths and avoiding mistakes of the past.THERE IS ONLY ONE GINGER PELE!!!

I will hold my hands up and say I''ve only seen about ten games this season, just before the accusations start flying. [:)][/quote]Indeed. Pretty much anyone who has been to games this season would be pretty much of the same opinion.If we are using the logic of past seasons then Drury should go as he was part of the team that was relegated, also Korey was in the team too, get him out![:)]

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="GJP"]In football (and in life, I guess) you should always look to learn, listen to those who know a bit better than you and then take it onboard.

This is one of those times when you should listen to those who know a bit better than yourself.[/quote]

And this is one of those times when you should consider being far less arrogant, and actually taking your own advice in accepting that others may know something about a subject apart from yourself.

If you don''t agree with my opinion that''s fair enough, and you''re totally entitled to voice your own views, but why resort to simply questioning the ability of another to even hold an opinion, especially in lieu of your own supporting evidence as to why you should even be listened to in the first place?

[/quote]

Well I could talk to you about the football side of it, if you''d see that as "supporting evidence".

But I''ve been over that stuff plenty of times before and, let''s face it, you''re probably not going to get it.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="nutty nigel"]Like you Indy, I don''t really want to get into another long drawn out argument about the Doc.[/quote]
We simply see things differently Nigel, and at least you respond in a fair manner instead of just claiming I know nothing about the sport :)

The point I was looking to illustrate is that one of the only consistent parts of our poor performances has been the presence of Doherty.

Drury has also been there as well, but missed huge chunks of the 07/08 & 08/09 seasons whereas Doc didn''t.
[quote]Robert Green is playing for England and will go to the World Cup but we could use these same stats to make a case for him not being good enough to play in the Champs couldn''t we? [/quote]
But we haven''t see Greeno dropping a bollock in virtually every game have we?

He''s got where he is through consistently good performances in a pretty average to poor team.

The problem with Doherty is that even if he played really well for 85 mins, there''s always that fear that in the remaining 5 he''d make a total hash of something and we''d end up conceding.

As fans we arguably remember his mistakes more because they have often been more obvious and usually more costly. If Holt sends a sitter over the bar, then we can still be on for a draw, and what''s more we think tend to feel that if he gets another chance he''ll make it count this time - if Doherty makes a bad error and we concede we then have to work harder just to get a point, and he doesn''t inspire any confidence that it won''t happen again.

The sad fact is that you notice keeper/defender errors far more than striker misses (unless it''s Curo missing his 10th sitter in a row...), and Doherty always looks prone to make a mistake. Hell, I''ve even got friends who visibly cringe when they hear his name on the teamsheet - and they support other clubs!

We''ll clearly never agree here Nigel, and being honest, I fully expect that if Doherty has another bad season in the CCC with us, then chances are that yourself or others will still claim that he''s quality and it''s someone else''s fault again.

Lightning may strike twice, but getting on for 5 times running you have to wonder what''s going on...
[/quote]

OK Indy. We will never agree and I am quite happy to leave it at that. But not if you are going to make stuff up to prove your point. We haven''t seen Greeno dropping a bollock in virtually every game is true. But we haven''t seen Doc do it either have we? And that''s the point you are trying to make.

Try watching games, try watching which defender loses his man for the goals. Try watching how often The Doc digs his partner out of a hole. Try watching which defenders actually give the penalties away. And then come here and back your point of view up with relevant incidents or stats and not manipulating team stats to suit your point of view.

 

 

[grantroederdisaster 0]

And why not?

 

Tell me a better CB in this seasons League1!

 

Done a fine job and overall in the last 4-5 seasons has been one of our best players!

[Houston Canary 0]

It''s amazing how a group of Norwich fans see something in Doherty that nobody else in professional footballing does. Lucky for them nobody else sees it because he''d be signed with another team in a heartbeat on those various times he;''s been told he''s free to go.

[tom1902 0]

our defence actually hasn''t been that good this year.

we have already conceded 45 goals in 43 games which is poor for a team top of the league.

norwich average goals conceded per game =1.04

newcastle = 0.75

notts county 0.6

normally if you win the league you would expect to concede far less goals than games played

finally our goal difference is only so good because of our goals for tally

[Graham Humphrey 13]

Actually clever clogs I think you will find that is distorted somewhat by the fact we let in seven in our first game.  In fact if you disregard the pre-Lambert games (and you may as well as we''re a totally different side now) we''ve only let in 35 in 40 games.  Which looks like a decent record to me.

[tom1902 0]

yes, but we conceded those goals with the current defence minus otsemobor

[Legend Iwan 30]

[quote user="tom1902"]yes, but we conceded those goals with the current defence minus otsemobor[/quote]

And if we had Gunn in charge would we have achieved promotion as well as we have. The whole team has a new confidence since Lambert came in, something Doc mentioned recently - so if you are analysing this team surely it shouldn''t include the previous managers results. Also another important difference in the defence, no Theo.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

[quote user="Houston Canary"]It''s amazing how a group of Norwich fans see something in Doherty that nobody else in professional footballing does. Lucky for them nobody else sees it because he''d be signed with another team in a heartbeat on those various times he;''s been told he''s free to go.[/quote]

 

Speaks the expert!!

 

I''m still waiting for someone to name a better CB in this seasons League1!

 

Whitbread is meant to be the best thing since sliced bread at CB - if thats the case then why isn''t he in the team now!

 

Last season messrs Stefanovic and Kennedy were signed cause they were allegedly better than what we had - yeah right!