Sounds like Doc will get a new contract

[tom1902 0]

no

you still dont get it

if he gets a new contract it does not mean that he is going to play well in the championship

[morty 0]

[quote user="tom1902"]no

you still dont get it

if he gets a new contract it does not mean that he is going to play well in the championship[/quote]Wel f ucking durrrrrr, unless anyone has a crystal ball that statement is patently obvious.Lol.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="morty"]So when Lambert gives him a new contract will you concede that your opinion is completely wrong?[/quote]The only time those of us who are concerned about Doherty''s ability will concede this, is if Lambert does offer the new contract and he has a strong season for us in the Championship -as I already stated on my previous ''longer'' response that you couldn''t be bothered to read.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="morty"]So when Lambert gives him a new contract will you concede that your opinion is completely wrong?[/quote]The only time those of us who are concerned about Doherty''s ability will concede this, is if Lambert does offer the new contract and he has a strong season for us in the Championship -as I already stated on my previous ''longer'' response that you couldn''t be bothered to read.[/quote]Lol, perhaps we should get Theo back too, give him a proper chance.I didn''t read all of your post because I know it pretty much sums up as "I am on a crusade and will continue to post tripe until people agree with me"[:)]

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="morty"]Lol, perhaps we should get Theo back too, give him a proper chance.I didn''t read all of your post because I know it pretty much sums up as "I am on a crusade and will continue to post tripe until people agree with me"[/quote]Ah, that old chestnut again.Regardless of whether or not Theo was actually good enough, we''ll never know for sure because he wasn''t given the chance to prove it either way by getting more first team appearances.I bet if Theo had been in the side for years in the Championship and was found guilty of dropping clangers on a regular basis, but then had a good season in League One, you''d be the first to demand he get a new contract.There is no way you can form a fair opinion on a player based on a single league game, and a few appearances for the reserves.Anyway, I''m not on a crusade, I don''t expect everyone to agree with my opinon, merely to accept that it''s as valid as their own, and the only way we''ll know who''s ''right'' as it were, is if Doherty is here next season and see how he plays.

[morty 0]

Lol.

[tom1902 0]

morty

will you concede that we are right when he performs poorly in the championship

which he will if we give him a new contract

(one of the highest contracts at the club)

[morty 0]

[quote user="tom1902"]morty

will you concede that we are right when he performs poorly in the championship

which he will if we give him a new contract

(one of the highest contracts at the club)[/quote]Did I not post on the last page that if he gets another contract and performs poorly in the Championship I shall personally apologise yo you and that other numpty?HOWEVER, it will be based on opinions that count, not yours.[:)]

[Lambert is King 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Houston Canary"]No thanks. I am sure he deserved it, though. I am not sure what that has to do with anything I''ve written on this thread. I never said he was not playing well this season post-reinstatement.[/quote]You could admit he was playing well until you were blue in the face Houston and some posters still wouldn''t get the point that yourself and I are trying to make.

I''m going to make a final attempt however...

Ok, imagine you''re at a former championship club who had just been relegated to league one and you''re looking back at your teams performance in League One this year.

You have a striker who has just come up through the youth system this season and has performed pretty well scoring a respectable amount of goals - does this make them good enough to repeat this performance in the Championship or even higher? The correct answer should be - we simply don''t know for sure. We can make guesses based on the back of the nature of his performances etc, but we simply will not know until he''s given the chance. It would not be totally unreasonable in this situation however to postulate that he may well be good enough, even if he doesn''t perform quite as strongly, purely because this single season is the only information we have to work from.

Now imagine you''re at the same club, and you have another striker who has not only played in the top flight, but also for a number of years in the Championship. Their performances in general at that level have been nothing to write home about, in fact considering the quality of player they were meant to be, their performances have been pretty poor and they''ve scored virtually no goals despite 30+ apps a season. However, now that the player has dropped down to league one, they''ve performed at more like the sort of level they were meant to be, and have scored plenty of goals this season - albeit against poorer opposition than previously. Does this single season at a lower level mean that the player is good enough for the higher level, or does their previous poor record tell us far more? Again, the answer is not straightforward, because we have to ask what standard of team they were previously in, what sort of supply they received etc. The point I would make here is that even in poor teams with limited supply, a good striker will still perform well and score goals, and therefore in this case, we can see that the striker simply isn''t a top class player, and that league one is probably their level.

The overall point I''m trying to illustrate here is that a single season of good performances at a lower level certainly does not guarantee or prove a players ability at a higher level - particularly when historically their performances at that higher level have been nothing to write home about. By applying this train of reasoning, it should be taken onboard that Doherty''s good season this year (even if it is a level or two below his supposed ability), should not automatically guarantee a new contract, because realistically his previous seasons at the higher level should be taken into consideration because they are arguably more relevant.

But to be fair here, we should also look at 2 conflicting pieces of evidence, the first one stating that Doherty has been selected by every single manager since his arrival here, so he must be pretty good or why would each manager keep playing him? Fair question, and until there''s evidence to the contrary, it has to be accepted that it was because they thought he was a good enough player - although we do also have to consider the club''s financial status and level of competition for that place here as well.
The second one is that despite Doherty''s contract twice being due for renewal during his stay here and being openly told he was free to leave, no other club ever made a firm offer for a transfer or loan for his services. Does this not strike a few as odd that a player the ''pro Doherty'' camp would rate highly, has never been approached for a move - even when we were playing poorly and looking to be struggling somewhat financially? Think of all the players the club has sold during his time here, ask yourself if you think they are better or worse players than Doherty, then ask the question as to why those players that were worse or equal to him got approached and he didn''t.
And there''s the conflict, we''ve had a succession of managers (who most fans think were poor, Lambert and to a certain extent Worthy exempt) who gave him the playing time, yet no other manager in the league has looked at doing so. Again, we don''t know the reason here and any theories would be idle speculation, but I personally have to wonder why numerous other managers weren''t interested and ours were. Surely if he was Championship standard, then numerous championship clubs would have been all over him in regards to a free transfer (which has been available on 2-3 occasions during his stay here), and yet - nothing...

And that''s the area of concern for fans like myself. We''ve seen him play in the Championship, and even if the squad wasn''t great, we simply haven''t rated his individual performances, and being told that single good season at a lower level is more than enough justification for a new contract is somewhat faulty reasoning. I have nothing personal against the guy, and will happily praise his performances this season for the team, but that doesn''t mean I''m simply going to forget about all the poor games I saw him play for us in the Championship, nor does it mean I''m going to advocate paying good wages to a player who has chronically failed to perform at the level we''re going to be playing at next season.

I really do hope that this has clarified my own, and some other posters view on this subject. It''s not some personal vendetta against a player for no reason, it''s based on seeing repeated poor showings over a number of years, and just like some fans aren''t willing to forget about the mistakes the board has made based on the teams performance this season, I''m not willing to dismiss my concerns about a player purely because they have played well this season. If he gets the new contract and plays well for us next season I''ll be the first to agree that it was the right choice and give him credit for the performances, but I''m not just going to ignore his previous performances and blindly advocate the giving of a contract on the back of a single season in League One.
[/quote]

Your description is a preety good description of our star striker Grant Holt, and I would be horrified if he was not to at least be given a chance next year. This is a different team a different style of play and Lambert knows exactly what is what. Your logic must apply to both players, in fact are any of our players proven championship players. Put your trust in Lambert, the past has gone now and whatever he does needs support from everyone in the club. 

[tom1902 0]

??

from someone who calls him `ginger pele`

you do realise that this was origionally a jibe from the spurs fans who thought that he was cr*p

did you go to the spurs vs city game at the lane in 2004/05?

because they howled when his name was read out and were laughing at us outside the ground because we had signed him.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="tom1902"]??

from someone who calls him `ginger pele`

you do realise that this was origionally a jibe from the spurs fans who thought that he was cr*p

did you go to the spurs vs city game at the lane in 2004/05?

because they howled when his name was read out and were laughing at us outside the ground because we had signed him.[/quote]I went to that game, as it happens.We drew 0-0, kept a clean sheet and hit the post when scoring looked easier.

[morty 0]

[quote user="tom1902"]??

from someone who calls him `ginger pele`

you do realise that this was origionally a jibe from the spurs fans who thought that he was cr*p

did you go to the spurs vs city game at the lane in 2004/05?

because they howled when his name was read out and were laughing at us outside the ground because we had signed him.[/quote]No, really? I thought they they called him that for his Brazillian skills.[:|]

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Lambert is King"]Your description is a preety good description of our star striker Grant Holt, and I would be horrified if he was not to at least be given a chance next year. This is a different team a different style of play and Lambert knows exactly what is what. Your logic must apply to both players, in fact are any of our players proven championship players. Put your trust in Lambert, the past has gone now and whatever he does needs support from everyone in the club.  [/quote]The difference here is that aside from a season being stuck out on the wing for Forest in the Championship, Holt hasn''t had the opportunity to prove his Championship credentials or not.If he''d been with us for 5 seasons in the CCC and played between average to poorly the entire time, hardly scoring goals, but then performed like he did this season, we''d have good reason to be cautious about his potential this coming season because his previous showings at a higher level weren''t good, and it would potentially indicate that his ability was more suited to League One level rather than the CCC.It doesn''t necessarily mean that he''s not good enough, but simply that based on previous evidence, it would be doubtful if he would perform to the same standard as this season - when he was playing against poorer opposition.It''s one thing to offer a contract based on limited evidence either way, but totally another to offer one in the face of evidence that suggests a lack of ability/performance at that level...

[Graham Humphrey 13]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]The difference here is that aside from a season being stuck out on the wing for Forest in the Championship[/quote]Except, of course, he wasn''t.

[tom1902 0]

holt was definatly played on the right wing for forest

[Graham Humphrey 13]

But not in the sodding Championship!

[tom1902 0]

yes

but he has only played 11 games in the championship for sheff wed(7) and blackpool(4)

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]But not in the sodding Championship![/quote]Quite right Graham, apols for the error there, it was the 07/08 season in League 1 where he was on the wing, not the Championship

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]But not in the sodding Championship![/quote]Is that the new sponsor name?

[tom1902 0]

lol

[matt crowhurst 0]

whilst i respect what you are saying Indy, where myself and a lot of

others are coming from is that when in the championship he was one of

our best most consistent players, often with very little support next to him or in front of him, hence why he was always mentioned in the player of the

season awards so for us he is not just a one season wonder, he is just showing what is evident from seasons pasti remember when Taylor came in for him there was a big fuss about how great he was but we actually conceded on average more goals per game with Taylor in the team than we did with Doc. Then Stefanovic came in and again it was yes no more Doc and look at all the penalties he gave away and mistakes he made that cost us points in that season. In fact i am pretty sure that Stef. gave away more pens in that season then Doc has in all his career with us, yet Doc still gets accused of giving away lots of them and i havent worked it out but the points we lost because of these pens would have ensured we stayed up i would have thought (im sure the stattos on here would know the answer to this?and as for no other club coming in for him how do you know? are you his agent? there were rumours of Plymouth and Watford and after listening to what they had to say he decided to stay with us, so just because he is still here doesnt mean that people were not interested in him or did not enquire and speak to him

[tom1902 0]

but how many free kicks did doherty give away last season by hugging players

[morty 0]

[quote user="tom1902"]but how many free kicks did doherty give away last season by hugging players[/quote]No idea, you tell us.

[tom1902 0]

how can we blame stefanovic for our relegation?

he played about 15 times

[morty 0]

[quote user="tom1902"]how can we blame stefanovic for our relegation?

he played about 15 times[/quote]How can you single out Doherty when pretty much the whole team was crap last season?

[tom1902 0]

Youve just said it

`the whole team was crap last season`

including doherty

[matt crowhurst 0]

and how many points did he cost us by giving away the pens and getting sent off away at Southampton if i remember correctly in those 15 games?and how many times do you see other defenders in the prem esp try and hold opposition players off and stop some backing in by holding on to them, Doc got a bad name for this and refs looked out for it so more were given than should have been. how many has he given away this season? different refs not looking for it perhaps?

[morty 0]

[quote user="tom1902"]Youve just said it

`the whole team was crap last season`

including doherty[/quote]So why single out Doherty then?Should we immediately dismiss every single player who played last season? Do you think that maybe poor coaching / tactics had anything to do with the overall team performance?It is extremely short sighted to place blame on one individual player.

[tom1902 0]

he didnt just hold players off

he might as well have been in bed with them

[matt crowhurst 0]

Tom if you are only just going to criticise one of our players then why do you support out team? and why do you ignore some questions and points? is it because you actually agree with them but they go against your point on here?