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AndyCanary

Stadium expansion?

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I don''t think it would have been cost effective to put a seated infill in the corner instead of the hotel, because so many of those seats would have to be left vacant to provide the buffer between home and away fans.

I think the only real long-term way forward would to be to make additions to the two side stands as others have said. And at the moment we can''t afford it.

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In McNally''s interview a while back - when he was talking about expanding the ground - I''m sure he said that a temporary stand was an immediate option for another 500 - 1000? I can only assume that would be in front of the hotel.

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Good point Ginja, but I''m sure other clubs that sell out have the same problem with fans being close together and manage it ok.A temporary stand would be cool g00se. Snakepit2!

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[quote user="AndyCanary"]Good point Ginja, but I''m sure other clubs that sell out have the same problem with fans being close together and manage it ok.A temporary stand would be cool g00se. Snakepit2![/quote]At the supporters forum it was mentioned as just one option, but McNally didn''t seem very keen, maybe there are problems with the concept we don''t know about?He did mention though that they were looking very closely at the whole stadium and that if they could fit in the odd row of 50 seats here and there they would be doing so. It wouldn''t surprise me if they could find 6 or 700 extra seats this way.

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Realistically any expansion would involve work being done to the Geoffry Watling stand. If you expanded the Jarrold (although I understand the design means its possible), the ground would look lopsided and ridiculous. I don''t think with the financial situation at the moment the club can justify the expansion of the ground. As someone else said I don''t think an infill where the hotel was would have made that much sense because of segregation issues. So the hotel probably wasnt the worst decision ever as it gave us a good cash injection.

The other sad reality of football at the moment is that unless you are of the big boys who can attract 60,000 or 70,000 crowds, income from crowds isnt really that significant when you reach the top end of the championship or Premier League. The Sky money has distorted the picture so much now and what is really important now is getting your hands on that money. Fulham, Bolton, Blackburn and Wigan don''t attract as many fans as us but they have been in the Premiership for years so they keep reaping the benefit of the sky money. It really is a vicious circle unfortunately.

Still it could be a lot worse. Carrow Road is a very big ground regardless. I have sat in the Jarrold since that stand opened, but I think if you still in the City Stand you really appreciate the size of the ground. Without naming names at least it is not a tinpot 10,000 seater ground, with a swamp for a pitch and a rubbish commercialised name.

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no one has mentioned the barclay as possible for redevelopment. If we could knock down the current one surely theres scope for a single tiered kop like stand?

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One area that has not been discussed is ticket prices.

Stadium expansion will be expensive so is only worth it if the club can get a good enough return on the investment. Yes that means ensuring that we can fill the seats but how much we get for each one is also key.

We''ve seen a price rise for next season and I would expect we will see additional rises over the next few years as the club tests how demand will hold up with higher prices. The more you can charge per seat the more expansion makes sense.

Would be get 35000+ in the Prem if ST prices started at £500 and casual tickets at £35?

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[quote user="Posh Yella"]

One area that has not been discussed is ticket prices.

Stadium expansion will be expensive so is only worth it if the club can get a good enough return on the investment. Yes that means ensuring that we can fill the seats but how much we get for each one is also key.

We''ve seen a price rise for next season and I would expect we will see additional rises over the next few years as the club tests how demand will hold up with higher prices. The more you can charge per seat the more expansion makes sense.

Would be get 35000+ in the Prem if ST prices started at £500 and casual tickets at £35?

[/quote]Our ticket prices are unrealistically low in comparison to other clubs.I would definitely expect steady increases over the next few years.

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Due to the laws of economics, the club have to be careful when imposing ticket increases to ensure they make a profit, or at least break even.There is no point them increasing the stadium size and putting up ticket prices if we end up with a half-empty stadium because people can''t afford to got so regularly. We only have to look at other clubs that have increased ticket prices and have ended up with empty seats week in, week out to realise we have to manage the risk carefully.

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[quote user="Woman in the Stands WITS"]Due to the laws of economics, the club have to be careful when imposing ticket increases to ensure they make a profit, or at least break even.There is no point them increasing the stadium size and putting up ticket prices if we end up with a half-empty stadium because people can''t afford to got so regularly. We only have to look at other clubs that have increased ticket prices and have ended up with empty seats week in, week out to realise we have to manage the risk carefully. [/quote]I agree completely. You only have to look at what cuddly old uncle Ken has done at Leeds as an example of the way not to do it.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Posh Yella"]

One area that has not been discussed is ticket prices.

Stadium expansion will be expensive so is only worth it if the club can get a good enough return on the investment. Yes that means ensuring that we can fill the seats but how much we get for each one is also key.

We''ve seen a price rise for next season and I would expect we will see additional rises over the next few years as the club tests how demand will hold up with higher prices. The more you can charge per seat the more expansion makes sense.

Would be get 35000+ in the Prem if ST prices started at £500 and casual tickets at £35?

[/quote]

Our ticket prices are unrealistically low in comparison to other clubs.

I would definitely expect steady increases over the next few years.
[/quote]

I`ve often heard/read that but haven`t seen much evidence of it.  I`m sure the last stats i saw when we were in the Champs put us just below average cost-wise.  One thing for sure is that if we`re doing ok for in the Champs there is plenty of demand even with higher prices so i think your last sentence is correct.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Posh Yella"]

One area that has not been discussed is ticket prices.

Stadium expansion will be expensive so is only worth it if the club can get a good enough return on the investment. Yes that means ensuring that we can fill the seats but how much we get for each one is also key.

We''ve seen a price rise for next season and I would expect we will see additional rises over the next few years as the club tests how demand will hold up with higher prices. The more you can charge per seat the more expansion makes sense.

Would be get 35000+ in the Prem if ST prices started at £500 and casual tickets at £35?

[/quote]Our ticket prices are unrealistically low in comparison to other clubs.I would definitely expect steady increases over the next few years.[/quote]

I`ve often heard/read that but haven`t seen much evidence of it.  I`m sure the last stats i saw when we were in the Champs put us just below average cost-wise.  One thing for sure is that if we`re doing ok for in the Champs there is plenty of demand even with higher prices so i think your last sentence is correct.

[/quote]Well a good example that I personally know of is the fact I paid £389 for my season ticket for next season in the Upper Barclay and the cheapest ST at Leeds is just over £500.Whilst I agree that we want to maintain our image as a family orientated, friendly club we have to be realistic in the fact that more money through the cash registers equals more money to spend on players. But also, as WITS said, we do have to maintain the balance and not alienate our loyal supporters.

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New STs may be over £500 at Leeds but renewal prices are £400 for the Family Area and £450 for the North Stand. Travelling on the train back from the Leeds game (at Norwich) it was amusing to listen to Leeds fan moan about their ST prices being so expensive compared to ours and then discovering that they were not that different.

I think the key difference is the kids prices and it will be interesting to see how much they go up by over the next few years.

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the foundations are already in place to add another tier ontop of the city stand apparently.

i have no idear what this would take the capacity too. im guessing 33-34,000?

 

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

the foundations are already in place to add another tier ontop of the city stand apparently.

i have no idear what this would take the capacity too. im guessing 33-34,000?

 

[/quote]Not the City stand.. it''s the Geoffrey Watling stand [:D] [A]

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[quote user="AndyCanary"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]May I suggest you think about this seasons holiday from servicing the debts.....thats approx. £2.5m we are not paying this season.

£15m (source: NCFC. Plc. AGM.) for a new G.W. stand and that would be after a few seasons in The Prem or bobbing between The Championship and The Prem.

Time for some realism.[/quote]


No realism needed. You''re missing my point... If you put all the debt aside that has amounted by the running costs of sacking managers, bringing in loan players, and the club generally spending more than its making then that is a pretty poor base for a bank to loan upon.  But if you''re talking about a loan against an actual asset and an asset that will introduce income then it''s a completely different story.  Yes £15m is daft for the sake of 5000 even 10,000 extra seats. But that isn''t what I was suggesting.

In a nut shell the loan situation is just like a buy to let mortgage...
[/quote]

You sound like a Labour Chancellor, lets have more debt when we are already having a £2.5m holiday from servicing the existing debt. 

Furthermore we are not guaranteed the extra income to service the extra debt at a sufficient level while we are in The Championship or do you know 5,000 new ST holders prepared to commit to 15 years in advance?  

As the board has already said we would need to be in The Prem or bobbing between The Championship and The Prem for the expansion of the GW. stand to happen. Even then I suspect will try to pay for some of the stand with cash in order to keep the burden of debt servicing down.

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[quote user="AndyCanary"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

the foundations are already in place to add another tier ontop of the city stand apparently.

i have no idear what this would take the capacity too. im guessing 33-34,000?

 

[/quote]

Not the City stand.. it''s the Geoffrey Watling stand [:D] [A]
[/quote]

its the Morgue stand due to the lack of noise.

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We need lots and lots of luvverly investment.......if we want to expand the stadium. 

We will have to expand the catering and restaurant facilities to cope with the extra influx of hungry and thirsty fans.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS! PRUDENCE WITH AMBITION! LET''S BE HAVIN'' YOU!....and stuff.

But, the squad will have to be put on the back-burner because infrastructure costs money....and that will be the priority because people need to eat and drink....And when all the new restaurant facilities are finished, all the profits will be pumped straight back into the playing squad and we''ll sign all the best players like Messi and some others who I can''t think of at the moment....

Football will flounder without foodball!

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Fernandes will offer financial support to build an extension in return he will want the name Carrow road to change to The Lotus arena[:P]

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[quote user="morty"]The intention is to replace the city stand with something probably similar to the Jarrold. But we would have to be at least 2 seasons in the Prem before it is even considered. They said at the supporters forum (and I may have the exact figure wrong) that the industry standard price for a new stand was something like £1500 per seat.So basically unless you put a bum on that seat every game for about 4 seasons you''re losing money.[/quote]Could you sell a 5 year season ticket to every bum who wanted those seats, paid for monthly by direct debit ?

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="morty"]The intention is to replace the city stand with something probably similar to the Jarrold. But we would have to be at least 2 seasons in the Prem before it is even considered. They said at the supporters forum (and I may have the exact figure wrong) that the industry standard price for a new stand was something like £1500 per seat.

So basically unless you put a bum on that seat every game for about 4 seasons you''re losing money.
[/quote]

Could you sell a 5 year season ticket to every bum who wanted those seats, paid for monthly by direct debit ?
[/quote]

6,000 seats @ say £340 (net of VAT) = £2m approx.

So £15m / £2m -> 7.5 years BUT that is not even considering the interest costs........think of 15 years as being more realistic

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="morty"]The intention is to replace the city stand with something probably similar to the Jarrold. But we would have to be at least 2 seasons in the Prem before it is even considered. They said at the supporters forum (and I may have the exact figure wrong) that the industry standard price for a new stand was something like £1500 per seat.So basically unless you put a bum on that seat every game for about 4 seasons you''re losing money.[/quote]Could you sell a 5 year season ticket to every bum who wanted those seats, paid for monthly by direct debit ?[/quote]5 years is a big commitment and whilst we may have people on the waiting list for a ST, its nowhere near 5,000. If we were established in the Prem then this idea may be more likely to suceed.

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[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="morty"]The intention is to replace the city stand with something probably similar to the Jarrold. But we would have to be at least 2 seasons in the Prem before it is even considered. They said at the supporters forum (and I may have the exact figure wrong) that the industry standard price for a new stand was something like £1500 per seat.So basically unless you put a bum on that seat every game for about 4 seasons you''re losing money.[/quote]Could you sell a 5 year season ticket to every bum who wanted those seats, paid for monthly by direct debit ?[/quote]

6,000 seats @ say £340 (net of VAT) = £2m approx.

So £15m / £2m -> 7.5 years BUT that is not even considering the interest costs........think of 15 years as being more realistic

[/quote]Fair point Tangie, and then there is the question of whether anyone would actually loan the money.  Peter Cullum, how much do you want to be loved by the good people of Norfolk ?

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Why don''t we expand the stadium with the requirements of all fans in mind. It''s quite obvious that there''s many fans who only want to see the game. The next time the stadium is expanded it should be done with these fans in mind. If the next stage is to put another tier on the City Stand then do this without all those expensive facilities. No bars or resturant facilities. Just a roof, seats and the minimum toilet facilities. Bog standard bogs if you like. A bit like the old South Stand before it was demolished. It''s about time the club started to consider the traditional grass roots fan rather than the sanitised version we have to "put up with" in the Jarrold.

[:O]

 

 

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@ Graham Paddon''s BeardYeh, i saw city win at forest 2-1 (great match) and thats the only time unfortunately! 1-1 draw at brum was good too.Hopefully tonight will be the night!

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[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

You sound like a Labour Chancellor, lets have more debt when we are already having a £2.5m holiday from servicing the existing debt. 

Furthermore we are not guaranteed the extra income to service the extra debt at a sufficient level while we are in The Championship or do you know 5,000 new ST holders prepared to commit to 15 years in advance?  

As the board has already said we would need to be in The Prem or bobbing between The Championship and The Prem for the expansion of the GW. stand to happen. Even then I suspect will try to pay for some of the stand with cash in order to keep the burden of debt servicing down.

[/quote]Don''t be a dweeb LOL. You''re clutching at straws because you know you''re in the wrong because you misunderstood my original post.If we''re selling out week in week out in a low league then what more proof do you want that we need an expansion? What do you expect to happen the club to open another 5000 seats and people to go ''oooh no thanks.. I only wanted a ticket before because it was going to sell out''.  Taking a loan for a stadium expansion is about as secure a loan a football club can make. Putting all other revenue sources and costs aside (as you would in this kind of business decision) it makes clear sense (although not necessarily convenient sense).. As Morty said £1500 a seat for expansion. If we isolate that cost and divide it by season ticket cost it pays for itself in 5 years. The beauty of this type of expansion is it is an outright additional income. At the moment the ticket income goes towards running the club. But extra seats would provide extra income from thin air.

Jas there wouldn''t be a City stand, or any other stands if it wasn''t for Geoffrey Watling in the first place don''t forget that! [;)]

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[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="morty"]The intention is to replace the city stand with something probably similar to the Jarrold. But we would have to be at least 2 seasons in the Prem before it is even considered. They said at the supporters forum (and I may have the exact figure wrong) that the industry standard price for a new stand was something like £1500 per seat.So basically unless you put a bum on that seat every game for about 4 seasons you''re losing money.[/quote]Could you sell a 5 year season ticket to every bum who wanted those seats, paid for monthly by direct debit ?[/quote]

6,000 seats @ say £340 (net of VAT) = £2m approx.

So £15m / £2m -> 7.5 years BUT that is not even considering the interest costs........think of 15 years as being more realistic

[/quote]''ang on a mo, where does the 15 million come from ?  6000 seats * 1500 quid = 9 million.

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[quote user="AndyCanary"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

You sound like a Labour Chancellor, lets have more debt when we are already having a £2.5m holiday from servicing the existing debt. 

Furthermore we are not guaranteed the extra income to service the extra debt at a sufficient level while we are in The Championship or do you know 5,000 new ST holders prepared to commit to 15 years in advance?  

As the board has already said we would need to be in The Prem or bobbing between The Championship and The Prem for the expansion of the GW. stand to happen. Even then I suspect will try to pay for some of the stand with cash in order to keep the burden of debt servicing down.

[/quote]Don''t be a dweeb LOL. You''re clutching at straws because you know you''re in the wrong because you misunderstood my original post.If we''re selling out week in week out in a low league then what more proof do you want that we need an expansion? What do you expect to happen the club to open another 5000 seats and people to go ''oooh no thanks.. I only wanted a ticket before because it was going to sell out''.  Taking a loan for a stadium expansion is about as secure a loan a football club can make. Putting all other revenue sources and costs aside (as you would in this kind of business decision) it makes clear sense (although not necessarily convenient sense).. As Morty said £1500 a seat for expansion. If we isolate that cost and divide it by season ticket cost it pays for itself in 5 years. The beauty of this type of expansion is it is an outright additional income. At the moment the ticket income goes towards running the club. But extra seats would provide extra income from thin air.

Jas there wouldn''t be a City stand, or any other stands if it wasn''t for Geoffrey Watling in the first place don''t forget that! [;)][/quote]It is all a very fine balancing act though, someone made the point that if there are seats to spare, and you knew you could pick up a casual ticket whenever you liked, would you be less likely to renew your season ticket? Or just pick the matches you actually want to go to? Or if we go on a losing streak perhaps not go at all?I know, from a personal point of view, I will struggle to pay for my 3 season tickets next season, but also knew that if I didn''t renew them then I may stand little chance of seeing as many games as I''d like to.

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