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AndyCanary

Stadium expansion?

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I am incredibly proud to call myself a Norwich City fan... the fact that we pretty much sell out all our home games despite being in a league that most of us would have sniffed at a few years ago.The sheer fact that we have sold out our ground so many times this season is a fantastic base for the future. Surely it makes huge sense for the board to look into creating more seating to fill the ground more?  But the question is where and how? The Holiday Inn build for me just went to show the short falls of the ''old business management team as that could have been a pefect base for more space. I can''t accept that it was easy money as they could have still built a hotel on the land just with a grandstand at the front of it.How else can we expand?

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The Jarrold was built with foundations to take a second tier but would obviously have to be closed for extension works. I believe McNally has said that is unlikely to happen in the near future due to current debt and the recession. Perhaps someone else can clarify??

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The intention is to replace the city stand with something probably similar to the Jarrold. But we would have to be at least 2 seasons in the Prem before it is even considered. They said at the supporters forum (and I may have the exact figure wrong) that the industry standard price for a new stand was something like £1500 per seat.So basically unless you put a bum on that seat every game for about 4 seasons you''re losing money.

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Interesting. I''m by no means a financial expert but I have read quite a bit about corporate finance and surely from a banks point of view the idea of loaning the cash for well required stadium expansion that will give a guaranteed return up front via season ticket returns and a regular flurry of cash via ticket sales is a pretty secure loan.. It''s not like it''s a loan for player purchases which only give a secure return if the team performs.

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Think when we discussed this a while ago we decided it was the City Stand that could have another tier built on it which I believe McNally confirmed at the last meeting.Only remember because I''m in the City Stand and was thinking that I would have to move whilst the work is done.

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[quote user="AndyCanary"]Interesting. I''m by no means a financial expert but I have read quite a bit about corporate finance and surely from a banks point of view the idea of loaning the cash for well required stadium expansion that will give a guaranteed return up front via season ticket returns and a regular flurry of cash via ticket sales is a pretty secure loan.. It''s not like it''s a loan for player purchases which only give a secure return if the team performs.[/quote]Trouble is can we really ensure that we will sell out a 35k seat stadium week in, week out? And can you convince a bank that you can?Whilst our crowds are good I still don''t reckon we would get many more than 30k. But building things costs a lot, so expanding to 30, then 35 at a later stage isn''t an option.

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[quote user="morty"]The intention is to replace the city stand with something probably similar to the Jarrold. But we would have to be at least 2 seasons in the Prem before it is even considered. They said at the supporters forum (and I may have the exact figure wrong) that the industry standard price for a new stand was something like £1500 per seat.So basically unless you put a bum on that seat every game for about 4 seasons you''re losing money.[/quote]Interesting figures.. 4 years is a pretty good turnaround in my opinion for something that will then generate you income forever more... So if they rebuilt the GW (not the City stand [:P] with 15,000 seats (for arguments sake) that''s £22,500,000 which is a huge amount of money. So I couldn''t see it being worth while. Surely expansion is the only way with an extra 5000 costing £7,500,000 which would generate a rough amount of £1,500,000 a year of ticket sales (roughly) which would mean it would take 5 years before we would start making profit of £1.5mill a year... seems good to me.

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The City stand also has the foundations to be built on. It also now has planning permission ( before it wasnt allowed because of blocking the light to the buildings opposite ). There is no way an expansion will take place until we are to quote an established premier league team. We are selling out at present because of a successfull season, should we expand by say 5000 and then not sell out we will lose £000s every game in additional interest.

The hotel is a different issue, I understand that they effectively pay for so many seats ( and a lot ) for every home game.

I would assume that should we expand and not sell out it could be the end of our club, a big risk to take.

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[quote user="morty"]Trouble is can we really ensure that we will sell out a 35k seat stadium week in, week out? And can you convince a bank that you can?Whilst our crowds are good I still don''t reckon we would get many more than 30k. But building things costs a lot, so expanding to 30, then 35 at a later stage isn''t an option.[/quote]Good point. I don''t think we could sell another 10k tickets game in game out. Maybe not even if we were in the Premiership. 5000 yes, but not straight away!It all points anger back towards the bloody Holiday Inn grr!

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If I remember rightly, McNally had put the expansion as one of his main objectives. We''ve been selling out week in, week out for the last 4 years. I seriously think we''d get near 35k and finally shake off the "little old Norwich" tag.

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[quote user="Lambert is King"]

 

The City stand also has the foundations to be built on. It also now has planning permission ( before it wasnt allowed because of blocking the light to the buildings opposite ). There is no way an expansion will take place until we are to quote an established premier league team. We are selling out at present because of a successfull season, should we expand by say 5000 and then not sell out we will lose £000s every game in additional interest.

The hotel is a different issue, I understand that they effectively pay for so many seats ( and a lot ) for every home game.

I would assume that should we expand and not sell out it could be the end of our club, a big risk to take.

[/quote]I guess if it was simple an extra 5000 would be ideal. The Championship clubs obviously have bigger away fanbases and tend to be a lot more local so as we know we''d see more away fans which would make the 5000 more like 4000 home fans to find. This Football lark isn''t a simple business is it!

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[quote user="AndyCanary"][quote user="morty"]The intention is to replace the city stand with something probably similar to the Jarrold. But we would have to be at least 2 seasons in the Prem before it is even considered. They said at the supporters forum (and I may have the exact figure wrong) that the industry standard price for a new stand was something like £1500 per seat.So basically unless you put a bum on that seat every game for about 4 seasons you''re losing money.[/quote]Interesting figures.. 4 years is a pretty good turnaround in my opinion for something that will then generate you income forever more... So if they rebuilt the GW (not the City stand [:P] with 15,000 seats (for arguments sake) that''s £22,500,000 which is a huge amount of money. So I couldn''t see it being worth while. Surely expansion is the only way with an extra 5000 costing £7,500,000 which would generate a rough amount of £1,500,000 a year of ticket sales (roughly) which would mean it would take 5 years before we would start making profit of £1.5mill a year... seems good to me.[/quote]But nothing is guaranteed, we might be rubbish next season and gates drop. But would 5,000 more seats be enough? Are you better off going with an extra 10,000 straight off rather than have to expand twice? You only have to look at Middlesboro and Southampton for examples of building too big too soon.Like I say, they have already said that we would have to be an established Prem side before they even consider it, so the question may not need ever be asked lol.

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[quote user="AndyCanary"][quote user="morty"]Trouble is can we really ensure that we will sell out a 35k seat stadium week in, week out? And can you convince a bank that you can?Whilst our crowds are good I still don''t reckon we would get many more than 30k. But building things costs a lot, so expanding to 30, then 35 at a later stage isn''t an option.[/quote]Good point. I don''t think we could sell another 10k tickets game in game out. Maybe not even if we were in the Premiership. 5000 yes, but not straight away!It all points anger back towards the bloody Holiday Inn grr![/quote]That hotel will make us more money in the long run than a corner infill would have done, they are notoriously expensive to build compared to how many actual seats you gain.

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Being a established Premiership side has got to realistically be over 5 years away. Even in a  very best case scenario if we follow Leicesters lead:Year 1: Championship promotionYear 2: Premiership relegation (totally realistic)Year 3: Championship promotionYear 4: Premiership survivalYear 5: Premiership survival (the start of being classed as established which is by no means certain look at Reading, and how Wigan are STILL fighting for survival year in year out.)

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I heard that we get more revenue from Holiday Inn across a season than we would by filling in that corner and selling all those seats for each home game.

Is this right or have I just made up a load of poppycock?

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[quote user="lmc"]I heard that we get more revenue from Holiday Inn across a season than we would by filling in that corner and selling all those seats for each home game.

Is this right or have I just made up a load of poppycock?[/quote]No it looks like you''re right.... but then that comes down to a bunch of morals for me... I mean surely we could bull doze the entire ground and rent the land to Tescos to build a superstore. Perhaps that would create more revenue than home game ticket sales.. but what does it do for the future of the club? not much [:P]

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[quote user="AndyCanary"][quote user="lmc"]I heard that we get more revenue from Holiday Inn across a season than we would by filling in that corner and selling all those seats for each home game.

Is this right or have I just made up a load of poppycock?[/quote]No it looks like you''re right.... but then that comes down to a bunch of morals for me... I mean surely we could bull doze the entire ground and rent the land to Tescos to build a superstore. Perhaps that would create more revenue than home game ticket sales.. but what does it do for the future of the club? not much [:P][/quote]It is clever business though, regular income year round not linked to attendances.

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[quote user="morty"]It is clever business though, regular income year round not linked to attendances.[/quote]True dearest Mortitious, but surely the could have built the hotel onto the back of a grandstand [:D]

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[quote user="AndyCanary"][quote user="morty"]It is clever business though, regular income year round not linked to attendances.[/quote]True dearest Mortitious, but surely the could have built the hotel onto the back of a grandstand [:D][/quote]Like I said earlier on though corner infills are massively expensive compared to how many actual seats you gain.I get your point though.But also, who could have predicted that we would have higher gates this season that our Prem season?

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[quote user="morty"]But also, who could have predicted that we would have higher gates this season that our Prem season?[/quote]I''m sure Smudger would probably try and claim he predicted it..

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I might get shot down here but I quite like the look of that corner, I think it fits in well with the ground. Obviously a corner infill would be better, but it''s not a bad second option. Also, part of the logic of the hotel was to allow access for ambulances etc, can''t imagine the corner being too sizeable whilst having a ''tunnel'' for ambulances as well.

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[quote user="AndyCanary"][quote user="morty"]But also, who could have predicted that we would have higher gates this season that our Prem season?[/quote]I''m sure Smudger would probably try and claim he predicted it..[/quote]I wouldn''t bet against that.[:D]

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I would rather have the ground as it is with no empty seats during matches. If we upgrade to 30k+ we could have empty seats for games against teams such as "scunthorpe" and it just wouldnt look nice, wait until we are in the prem.

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I''m sure scarcity of tickets also boosts attendances. How many people would have bailed out of their ST if they knew they could easily get casual tickets when they wanted? A sizable minority I wager.

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Suffolk Exile makes a very good point. I know many binners who threw in their season ticket because getting a seat isn''t an issue as their ground is much larger. And of course when things don''t go well you don''t bother going.

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[quote user="AndyCanary"]Interesting. I''m by no means a financial expert but I have read quite a bit about corporate finance and surely from a banks point of view the idea of loaning the cash for well required stadium expansion that will give a guaranteed return up front via season ticket returns and a regular flurry of cash via ticket sales is a pretty secure loan..
[/quote]

May I suggest you think about this seasons holiday from servicing the debts.....thats approx. £2.5m we are not paying this season.

£15m (source: NCFC. Plc. AGM.) for a new G.W. stand and that would be after a few seasons in The Prem or bobbing between The Championship and The Prem.

Time for some realism.

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[quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"]Kiwi...just as an aside. You record on away matches isn''t the best. Have you ever seen us win?[/quote]

Forest 2-1 win, and Brum 1-1 draw! Lets hope the next too games bring him some more victory''s to witness!

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[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]May I suggest you think about this seasons holiday from servicing the debts.....thats approx. £2.5m we are not paying this season.

£15m (source: NCFC. Plc. AGM.) for a new G.W. stand and that would be after a few seasons in The Prem or bobbing between The Championship and The Prem.

Time for some realism.[/quote]

No realism needed. You''re missing my point... If you put all the debt aside that has amounted by the running costs of sacking managers, bringing in loan players, and the club generally spending more than its making then that is a pretty poor base for a bank to loan upon.  But if you''re talking about a loan against an actual asset and an asset that will introduce income then it''s a completely different story.  Yes £15m is daft for the sake of 5000 even 10,000 extra seats. But that isn''t what I was suggesting.In a nut shell the loan situation is just like a buy to let mortgage...

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